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Mr Hyena wrote:As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.

Because it's an 8 years old codex getting an update and things are bound to change in some way.
Apparently in the new background they work primarily with the Ordo Malleus, but when things go south badly they can intervene for the other two Ordos.

Mr Hyena wrote:Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.

As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.

Sorry, you're a little to loose with your pronouns here. Who are you talking about?

Mr Hyena wrote:I agree that things look better for us; with a chance at more more varied troops rather than just Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Squads (which honestly should be a Troop Choice in this codex; as well as an option for the warband retinue)

I'll certainly agree with you here. Nothing in the henchmen section has the ability to get BS4, so even with carapace and hotshot lasguns you can't quite make an ISS.

Mnemoch wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.

As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.

Sorry, you're a little to loose with your pronouns here. Who are you talking about?

I'm talking about the Henchmen not taking a FOC slot. Grey Knights don't really work with Ordo Xenos or Ordo Hereticus; so it doesn't make much sense that you can pick an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, some henchmen and have to take some Grey Knights.

Because it's an 8 years old codex getting an update and things are bound to change in some way.
Apparently in the new background they work primarily with the Ordo Malleus, but when things go south badly they can intervene for the other two Ordos.

Does it say that in the new codex? that kind of invalidates the whole Ordo - Militant bond that they have. (for all Ordos) I assume the same will be for the Sisters and The Deathwatch? Which makes me wonder why they need to make another codex rather than just roll both into the one.

Well...in looking at whos writing it. I wouldn't be surprised of a mess-up of this proportion.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Mnemoch wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.

As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.

Sorry, you're a little to loose with your pronouns here. Who are you talking about?

I'm talking about the Henchmen not taking a FOC slot. Grey Knights don't really work with Ordo Xenos or Ordo Hereticus; so it doesn't make much sense that you can pick an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, some henchmen and have to take some Grey Knights.

Ahh, ok. That could very well be. The info I have access to does not support your conclusion, but as I've said before I believe my source is somewhat dated. This does seem an area that would have been noted and fixed during playtest. It's certainly one of the first things I noticed.

Well theres no point for anybody to get into an argument over it at this point; best to wait and see what happens.

I've come to terms with the fact that my favourite aspect of 40k fluff is about to be shat upon.

GhostKnights are also in. (terminators with stealth that are upgrade retinue for one of the special characters, his rules are fun, for every wound he takes another terminator is added to the squad to "protect" him hehe.

this thing just sounds insane, and I doubt this is true. If they are, I'm getting 10, to fit in with my raven guard.

Who's arguing? I'm just explaining the data I have access to.

I will say that I think that there will be a lot of abuse potential if they don't fix that loophole. Massed Henchmen squads that can claim and don't fill FOC slots have the potential to out-tankwall the IG, with a far more efficient point-to-special weapon ratio as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shrike wrote:

GhostKnights are also in. (terminators with stealth that are upgrade retinue for one of the special characters, his rules are fun, for every wound he takes another terminator is added to the squad to "protect" him hehe.

this thing just sounds insane, and I doubt this is true. If they are, I'm getting 10, to fit in with my raven guard.

It's worse than that. His termies are substantially cheaper, show up on the first turn when deep striking, and do not deviate. And he's not an IC, so can't be picked out to make the rest of the squad go poof.

Who's arguing? I'm just explaining the data I have access to.

Well debate/arguing either or. Better for us both to take a wait and see.

Mr Hyena wrote: I liked the Grey Knights before; but they seem too SM-y this time.

That's what I'd been thinking - they have certainly brought the GKs base stats in line with other space marine chapters which I am very disappointed with. Then they have added all these psychic powers in which made me think space marines with a little eldar thrown in...Ok...

So, yeah, it looked like the other SM codices with regard to the PAGK - space marines with grey knight rules. Just like blood angels are space marines with blood angel rules, space wolves are space marines with wolfy rules etc and this is the one thing that I really hoped wouldn't happen before any of these rumours hit the forums.

But, taking the codex as a whole, it seems that there may well be many viable builds that wont look anything like any of the other space marine codices. We may not see that many PAGK based armies because it seems that it will be possible to build armies around terminators and =I= then throw in stuff that can't be seen elsewhere like paladins and dreadknights, inquisitors from different factions and the stormraven which is so far only accessible by blood angels besides GK and I think that a codex: GK army could be very un-SM.

All assuming that these rumours are true of course but considering the amount of them from all the different sources and I believe that a lot of them will see their place in the new codex.

ColdSadHungry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote: I liked the Grey Knights before; but they seem too SM-y this time.

That's what I'd been thinking - they have certainly brought the GKs base stats in line with other space marine chapters which I am very disappointed with. Then they have added all these psychic powers in which made me think space marines with a little eldar thrown in...Ok...

So, yeah, it looked like the other SM codices with regard to the PAGK - space marines with grey knight rules. Just like blood angels are space marines with blood angel rules, space wolves are space marines with wolfy rules etc and this is the one thing that I really hoped wouldn't happen before any of these rumours hit the forums.

But, taking the codex as a whole, it seems that there may well be many viable builds that wont look anything like any of the other space marine codices. We may not see that many PAGK based armies because it seems that it will be possible to build armies around terminators and =I= then throw in stuff that can't be seen elsewhere like paladins and dreadknights, inquisitors from different factions and the stormraven which is so far only accessible by blood angels besides GK and I think that a codex: GK army could be very un-SM.

All assuming that these rumours are true of course but considering the amount of them from all the different sources and I believe that a lot of them will see their place in the new codex.

While I certainly support your wanting Grey Knights to be special and unique, it makes them far more likely to be a competitive force if they are equivalent to normal space marines, but with special rules to make them uniquely Grey Knights. While it was great to have "slightly better" space marines from DH codex, you never really wanted to pay that premium just for a few special rules, WS 5 and better wargear. Between that, the FoC requirements and the bland (and expensive) options in other parts of the codex, DH was NEVER a truly competitive army, even during 4th. It sounds like they are taking some steps to make them more like space marines at the bottom end (normal PAGKs) but letting the rest of the codex make a grey knights force special, which seems completely reasonable to me.

Easily said...but for all of us old GK players...we're losing everything that made the army GK-like.

WS-5 S-6 Fearless and a natural shrouding

In a sense...GKs aren't marines...they're just better. But the statlines no longer show that...now they're just kind of better...

ductvader wrote:Easily said...but for all of us old GK players...we're losing everything that made the army GK-like.

WS-5 S-6 Fearless and a natural shrouding

In a sense...GKs aren't marines...they're just better. But the statlines no longer show that...now they're just kind of better...

Yes, but now everything else in the codex is way better to overcompensate. Can't fault them for trying to shake things up but it's sounding kind of "out there" in terms of internal balance.

I understand wanting to rock the proverbial boat...but don't destroy the codex...its like taking ATSKNF from Ultramarines next time around...people will be scratching their heads...didnt see that coming...oh...now marines have lasguns?...oh bad...but I get to take titans?...oh...all right

As I have already stated...I like the codex now because it allows one to build an army a millions different ways...that's why nids are my secondary army...

I don't see that at all. Everone in the book has a Storm Bolter, has a power weapon or prospective force weapon. Apparently Crowe allows Purifiers as troops, so you can still have 2 attack troopers, but now you can choose S6 or S5 I5 or S5 A3. The Grey Knights are there, and while I hate losing Fearless I can accept it because they will finally lay out the unholy levels of melee asskickage I've always wanted.

Can we have it laid out how you can choose S6 or S5 I5 or S5 A3?

And also I don't remember seeing answer my question specifically as to what a psylencer is...

If anyone has these answers...thank you for responding.

Magister187 wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote: I liked the Grey Knights before; but they seem too SM-y this time.

That's what I'd been thinking - they have certainly brought the GKs base stats in line with other space marine chapters which I am very disappointed with. Then they have added all these psychic powers in which made me think space marines with a little eldar thrown in...Ok...

So, yeah, it looked like the other SM codices with regard to the PAGK - space marines with grey knight rules. Just like blood angels are space marines with blood angel rules, space wolves are space marines with wolfy rules etc and this is the one thing that I really hoped wouldn't happen before any of these rumours hit the forums.

But, taking the codex as a whole, it seems that there may well be many viable builds that wont look anything like any of the other space marine codices. We may not see that many PAGK based armies because it seems that it will be possible to build armies around terminators and =I= then throw in stuff that can't be seen elsewhere like paladins and dreadknights, inquisitors from different factions and the stormraven which is so far only accessible by blood angels besides GK and I think that a codex: GK army could be very un-SM.

All assuming that these rumours are true of course but considering the amount of them from all the different sources and I believe that a lot of them will see their place in the new codex.

While I certainly support your wanting Grey Knights to be special and unique, it makes them far more likely to be a competitive force if they are equivalent to normal space marines, but with special rules to make them uniquely Grey Knights. While it was great to have "slightly better" space marines from DH codex, you never really wanted to pay that premium just for a few special rules, WS 5 and better wargear. Between that, the FoC requirements and the bland (and expensive) options in other parts of the codex, DH was NEVER a truly competitive army, even during 4th. It sounds like they are taking some steps to make them more like space marines at the bottom end (normal PAGKs) but letting the rest of the codex make a grey knights force special, which seems completely reasonable to me.

However potentially at the cost of losing alot of the flavor of the army. Being competitive isn't everything.

No, being competitive isn't everything, but being in a huff because your basic troopers are more like other basic troopers (who are fundamentally supposed to be similar, even if Grey Knights are known for their badassery, they are still Space Marines) so that you can have a better balanced army just seems asinine.

If they were just nerfing PAGK and not giving anything in return, that would be ridiculous. But when you put that together with expanding options at every other Force Organization slot, it seems like they are (correctly) just bringing things back in line with other armies and giving them some measure of balance.

ductvader wrote:Can we have it laid out how you can choose S6 or S5 I5 or S5 A3?

And also I don't remember seeing answer my question specifically as to what a psylencer is...

If anyone has these answers...thank you for responding.

I believe he's referring to the weapon options you can take, in conjunction with Hammerhand (which gives +1S). While I do not have access to wargear descriptions, the rumored effect of the Nemesis Halberd is +1I, the rumored effect of the Nemesis Demonhammer is +1S, and the rumored effect of two Nemesis Falchions is lightning claws. Not really sure about A3, I presume he meant an extra attack from the Falchoins.

I'm not aware of any rumors about what a psylencer is, that's one thing that no one seems to have a clue about.

Magister187 wrote:No, being competitive isn't everything, but being in a huff because your basic troopers are more like other basic troopers (who are fundamentally supposed to be similar, even if Grey Knights are known for their badassery, they are still Space Marines) so that you can have a better balanced army just seems asinine.

If they were just nerfing PAGK and not giving anything in return, that would be ridiculous. But when you put that together with expanding options at every other Force Organization slot, it seems like they are (correctly) just bringing things back in line with other armies and giving them some measure of balance.

So what about the loss of uniqueness?

IMHO, the uniqueness has only been lost to an extent which can be expected for the more simplified/streamlined nature of 5th edition.

Grey Knights still seem to have much of their original personality. I suspect, like many things within Codices these days, you can have it as themed and/or 'cheesy' as you like (within reason). It'll originate in a balance between the two, then you can direct it in either direction should you want to.

Although you don't have the same statline as you did before, GK now seem to be compensating through wargear, which has a similar effect to the previous statline.

I just hope it turns into nothing like Space Wolves or Blood Angels honestly.

I agree. However, despite both of those Codices notable flaws, they are still pretty good; expanding (albeit often badly) on the background and allowing a wide range of builds and flavours.
Nonetheless, this isn't the place for this discussion...

True; though it has relevance to the fluff and feel of this codex.

Can we have it laid out how you can choose S6 or S5 I5 or S5 A3?

And also I don't remember seeing answer my question specifically as to what a psylencer is...

If anyone has these answers...thank you for responding.

Probably nemesis halbeards and a libby nearby for an added +1S.
You are going to have S6 knights and other options as well but for balances sake probably at a to steep point cost.


Also what is the range of a psycannon rumored to be?

Pyriel- wrote:Also what is the range of a psycannon rumored to be?

36" Assault 2/Heavy 4. AP 4, S7.
Psybolt Ammo seems to make them ignore invulnerable saves.

Is it just me, or does the Dreadknight's silhouette just make it look awful? It doesn't have any of that trademark bulk that makes up the majority of the IoM's design philosophy. It looks almost like an Eldar vehicle, not something a bunch of holy, god-like super bookworms on steroids would use. I thought it would be more like a Dreadnought, that would've been really cool.

Mr Hyena wrote:why would an Ordo Xenos need Grey Knights?

Because Matt Ward is a dumbass. Everything that is wrong with these rumours can be boiled down to that fact.

Oh, when was Ward confirmed, I missed that

are we going to have Grey Knights looking up to Rowboat Girllyman as their 'spiritual leige' here too

Wish someone better was writing the codex...