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Dionysodorus wrote:
Celestians' bodyguard rule triggers when a character loses a wound. A lascannon doesn't cause a model to lose wounds until it rolls damage.

If Celestine fails a save against a lascannon and it rolls a 6 for damage, then Celestine would lose 6 wounds. You roll 6 dice, and for each 2+ you can opt to have the Celestians take a mortal wound in order to ignore one of the wounds on Celestine.

I am no fan of Celestians and do not use them, but I don't believe this is the way the rule reads. It says that "on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit" ....in other words the lascannnon hits ONE time, a Celestian model intercepts the hit on a 2+ and loses a mortal wound. If it were 6 HITS then yes, one Celestian would need to intercept each of the 6 hits individually.

 davidgr33n wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Celestians' bodyguard rule triggers when a character loses a wound. A lascannon doesn't cause a model to lose wounds until it rolls damage.

If Celestine fails a save against a lascannon and it rolls a 6 for damage, then Celestine would lose 6 wounds. You roll 6 dice, and for each 2+ you can opt to have the Celestians take a mortal wound in order to ignore one of the wounds on Celestine.

I am no fan of Celestians and do not use them, but I don't believe this is the way the rule reads. It says that "on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit" ....in other words the lascannnon hits ONE time, a Celestian model intercepts the hit on a 2+ and loses a mortal wound. If it were 6 HITS then yes, one Celestian would need to intercept each of the 6 hits individually.

They can't help St C as she is not an [Order] character.

Was just noticing that and was going to append my previous response.

I'm wondering about the winning list from this weekend. Apparently, a big GT won by Sisters.

 pretre wrote:
I'm wondering about the winning list from this weekend. Apparently, a big GT won by Sisters.

Well I can help you with that:


Here are the army I faced:
Round1: Astra Militarum with lots of guards squads and conscripts
Round2: Magnus + 2 Chaos Knight + Brimstones/Malefic Lords
Round3: SM Raptor brigade with Lias and all the neat DS tricks
Round4: Magnus + 2 tzeentch princes + lots and lots of brimstones/heralds/exalted (oh and also some TS scarab termies)
Round5: Bobby G devastator gunline with a stormraven and conscripts speedbump.

For the defense of my opponent, I went first in every game except the second. Going second in round 3 or 5 would most likely have resulted in me losing those games.

Nicely done!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I'm wondering about the winning list from this weekend. Apparently, a big GT won by Sisters.

Well I can help you with that:

Spoiler:

Adeptus Ministorum Outrider detachment:
HQ: Saint Celestine with BFFs

EL: Ministorum Priest
EL: 9x Arco-flagellants

FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns
FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns
FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns
FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns
FA: 9x Seraphims with 4x inferno pistols

DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter
DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter
DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter
DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter
DT: Rhino with 2x stormbolter

Astra Militarum Spearhead detachment:
HQ: Cie Commander

HS: Manticore
HS: Manticore
HS: Heavy Weapon Squad with 3x mortars

DT: Taurox Prime with gatling and 2x hot-shots
DT: Taurox Prime with gatling and 2x hot-shots

Here are the army I faced:
Round1: Astra Militarum with lots of guards squads and conscripts
Round2: Magnus + 2 Chaos Knight + Brimstones/Malefic Lords
Round3: SM Raptor brigade with Lias and all the neat DS tricks
Round4: Magnus + 2 tzeentch princes + lots and lots of brimstones/heralds/exalted (oh and also some TS scarab termies)
Round5: Bobby G devastator gunline with a stormraven and conscripts speedbump.

For the defense of my opponent, I went first in every game except the second. Going second in round 3 or 5 would most likely have resulted in me losing those games.

So obviously, things went well, but any thoughts on your list and what you would change?

 davidgr33n wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Celestians' bodyguard rule triggers when a character loses a wound. A lascannon doesn't cause a model to lose wounds until it rolls damage.

If Celestine fails a save against a lascannon and it rolls a 6 for damage, then Celestine would lose 6 wounds. You roll 6 dice, and for each 2+ you can opt to have the Celestians take a mortal wound in order to ignore one of the wounds on Celestine.

I am no fan of Celestians and do not use them, but I don't believe this is the way the rule reads. It says that "on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit" ....in other words the lascannnon hits ONE time, a Celestian model intercepts the hit on a 2+ and loses a mortal wound. If it were 6 HITS then yes, one Celestian would need to intercept each of the 6 hits individually.

That strikes me as obviously written as flavor text. It's not like "intercept that hit" is a meaningful phrase in the rules -- it's just justifying the rule. And it just doesn't make any sense given the way you resolve attacks. The character lost 6 wounds all at once. If you read the trigger here the same way that you read it for Feel No Pain type rules, that means you roll 6 dice -- they've been clear in FAQs how they mean for this kind of trigger to work.

And of course the rule seems to be written as if you're dealing with one wound at a time. Like, surely if they intended this to turn 6 wounds into 1 mortal wound it would actually say that it can do that. Note that Tyranid Tyrant Guard have the same rule, where a character's lost wound (or wounds?) is converted into a single mortal wound on the unit, but the Tyrant Guard have 3 wounds each. Surely it's not supposed to be the case that 6 lascannon damage on a Hive Tyrant can turn into a single wound on a Tyrant Guard.

 pretre wrote:
So obviously, things went well, but any thoughts on your list and what you would change?

Well, to be honest right now I don't really know...

So far I never lost when going first with this list (plus/minus some tweaks over time) and lost only 3 times out of now probably 30+ competitive games including BAO, Hammer of Wrath (yesterday's GT) , 3 RTTs and the various competitive training with my local friends. So it works *really* well for now.

Then there is a bit of format pressure. The useless parts are the Cie Commander and the mortars but I need them to keep the IG part in their own detachment to be considered a sister army per ITC restriction (=my biggest detachment needs to be pure Ministorum and/or Sororitas). Otherwise they would be changed for 57pts of other stuff.

Appart from that what to change ? There isn't much choices in the sister index to start with. From my competitive point of view, besides Saint Celestine, dominions, seraphims and our transports there are no other interesting units. I sometimes contemplate the idea of a second seraphim squad: Saint C would single move while both seraphims would double move on turn 1. However, in most games it's more useful to double move Saint C to get some turn1 charges. So it doesn't feel really appealing as an idea.
I certainly don't need more CC units on the ministorum side of my army. The 9 arcos are already monsters and combined with Celestine and the seraphims, I'm happy with my CC capabilities. I liked Frankie's idea of two squads of 5-6 arcos/DCA in a couple flammolators so I might try that in the future but i need to find the points somewhere else.
Finally the AM part... well it's pretty straightforward. The tauroxes are amazing at killing light infantry while the two manticore are perfect complement of my short range melta rush.

The only thing I really tried to fit somehow in my list is a combi-melta for all 4 dominion superiors. But that's pricey and makes me less resilient overall. I have yet to find a solution that pleases me. Otherwise here's a few ideas I've been tinkering with:
- a squad of 5-6 raven guard aggressors. Those guy can "infiltrate" and throw an insane amount of shots S4. Basically they would do a better job than the tauroxes while having some power-fist ability, but they feel a lot more fragile too.
- including some DSing plasma Scions. No need to present them, it's more raw power that can't be killed until it did something.

When I first got the Index I spent a lot of time staring at my 6 Arco Flagellants, thinking they had some real potential with a priest trundling about in a Rhino. For the time being I'm doing just fine with a few BSS in a Battalion but if I ever decide I don't really need CP's I'm going to drop a squad and try those nutty guys out. Currently, Celestine and an Eviscerator Canoness have been tackling all my melee needs and they have proven adequate.

Does anyone use Seraphim as fast-moving tank hunters? With two Seraphims carrying twin melta pistols, that's 4 melta shots that can go into a tank or other high-T model. Since Seraphim can potentially double move now, they can get into those rear enemy areas rather quickly. Even though the Inferno Pistols are a bit expensive each at just one point more than a Seraphim, they're still 8 pts cheaper than what Blood Angels pay, and they are melta weapons.

I don't like running my Seraphims without a threat weapon (and the flamers were nerfed so bad I won't use them) because it makes them nothing more than a nuisance to the opponent.

I run 8-10 Seraphims with 4 Inferno Pistols doing double-duty as tank-hunters and giving Celestine some protection. Their 5/6++ rerollable is nice but I find most opponents just shoot massed bolter equivalents at them, and their basic 3+ save is enough to hold them for a turn or two.

How do most of you run your Seraphims? Any tips or power moves you like using with them?

Exactly like that for the same reasons. At this point it's become the common wisdom. if you're running big C you need a squad of seraphim as they're literally the only thing in the sisters codex that can soak for her without her being artificially constrained. if you're taking a unit and upgrading the weapons you're taking inferno pistols because hand flamers are rubbish.

I use them that way. My Melta Dominions priority are Monsters>tanks, since they are more resilient in repressor. Tanks don't retaliate well in cc, so seraphims are great to lock them. But just locking isn't very unit efficient use. While not point efficient, inferno pistols are unit efficient. Putting dent into landrider, softening it if seraphim's going to be wiped is what I aim for. This enables me to AF shoot(and probably destroy tank) and then fall back from cc if my opponent charged me (very likely) and didn't wipe the squad. If two rounds off melta didn't work, i can still split fire inferno pistols into tank and bp to other unit in cc.

Works great in 1000-1200 points range. I usually drop them last with celestine, after my opponent drops most of his drops and I see good target for them. This way my opponent can't ignore them.

I use them in large games. In small games, Celestine is self-protected enough for it not to be a big deal, and I'd rather have more Dominions.

5 squads of Dominions in Immolators, a squad of Seraphim, big C and 4 penitent engines because i will have about 1500 points of my 2k list in you're deployment zone on turn 1.

What do you use as plasma substitute? Or more like reliable TEQ killer unit? Is it good idea to get Imperial Knight for this job? Are there any semi-reliable SoB unit for this in your opinion?

I don't want to use other infantry or tanks than sister one. Flyers and LoW are ok since sister don't have any on their own.

Spera wrote:
What do you use as plasma substitute? Or more like reliable TEQ killer unit?

We used to use the exorcist for this, but it sucks now. I'd suggest weight of fire or melta dominions.

Spera wrote:
What do you use as plasma substitute? Or more like reliable TEQ killer unit? Is it good idea to get Imperial Knight for this job? Are there any semi-reliable SoB unit for this in your opinion?

I don't want to use other infantry or tanks than sister one. Flyers and LoW are ok since sister don't have any on their own.

Meltaguns.

This. Melta is your plasma, it doesn't have the range but it has the damage potential and you can load up on enough melta to make a Salamander green with envy.

To the poster who asked about Seraphim with Inferno pistols: oh absolutely yes you want them. Point for point they're probably the single best unit in the index if you use Faith to move them twice. My best results with them has been to jump closest to an enemy character and assassinate them and dive on unsuspecting Land Raiders. They combo perfectly with Celestine, just don't expect them to accomplish anything in melee outside of keeping something from shooting. They look like an assault unit, but they are most assuredly a gun platform.

So with the updates to ob-sec and clarifications with how it works, I'm updating my list a little bit and adding BSS (never thought I would). I also added a Manticore after RabbitMaster's performance last weekend. This will be for a heavily maelstrom event that uses the turn by turn win on maelstrom system, so focus on getting objectives is really important.

10 CP at 2k

Battalion (+3 CP)
HQ - Company Commander (Laspistol/Chainsword) - 30
HQ - Lord Commissar (BP/Power Sword) - 55

Ob-Sec Troop - 35 Conscripts - 105
Ob-Sec Troop - 5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma - 59
Ob-Sec Troop - 5 Tempestus Scions with 2 Plasma - 59

Heavy - Manticore with HB - 133


Battalion (+3 CP)
HQ - St Celestine & one Gemini - 200
HQ - Canoness with Power Maul/BP - 49

Fast - 5 Doms with 4 Melta, Sup with Chainsword/BP/Bolter - 118
DT - Repressor with HF/SB - 90
Fast - 5 Doms with 4 Melta, Sup with Chainsword/BP/Bolter - 118
DT - Repressor with HF/SB - 90
Fast - 5 Seraphim, Superior with BP/Power Sword - 59

Ob-Sec Troop - 5 BSS with 2 Storm Bolters, Sup with StormB/BP/Chainsword - 51
DT - Immolator with IF - 103
Ob-Sec Troop - 5 BSS with 2 Storm Bolters, Sup with StormB/BP/Chainsword - 51
DT - Repressor with HF/SB - 90
Ob-Sec Troop - 5 BSS with 2 Storm Bolters, Sup with StormB/BP/Chainsword - 51
DT - Repressor with HF/SB - 90

Heavy - 5 Ret with 4 HB, Sup with Bolter/BP/Chainsword  - 85
Heavy - 5 Ret with 4 HB, Sup with Bolter/BP/Chainsword  - 85


Vanguard (+1 CP)
HQ - Tempestor with Command Rod - 40
Elite - 4 Tempestus Scions with 4 Plasma - 64
Elite - Eversor - 70
Elite - Culexus - 85

the idea is that I bunker the Conscripts + Chars, the Rets plus Canoness and the Manticore in my DZ.

The Scions x2, Scion Command Squad and Tempestus can be used to snag objective and remove pesky stains.

Celestine and the Seraphim push forward and lock things up.

Dominions rush forward and nuke crap.

Battle sisters slow advance and hold objectives.

Assassins target nasty problems and/or grab objectives.

Hey peeps, popping in once more for those of you who were interested in my counts-as Repressor conversion, I've uploaded a gun turret and a flamethrower that work with it and my Gothic Bubble Canopy (in case anyone's lost the official ones, since that happens), and I've started a thread for them here.

I would actually recommend two 5-girl BSS in repressors. They have exactly 6 storm bolters between the ten girls, and thus they can fire all six out the fire ports.

 Melissia wrote:
I would actually recommend two 5-girl BSS in repressors. They have exactly 6 storm bolters between the ten girls, and thus they can fire all six out the fire ports.

I was thinking about doubling up, but wanted to have more coverage on the board. Let me look though.
edit: I also have a weird hangup on doubling up on transports I probably need to get over.

Is minimizing the number of drops no longer as important as having plenty of ObSec on the ground?

 davidgr33n wrote:
Is minimizing the number of drops no longer as important as having plenty of ObSec on the ground?

It's not. But doubling up in transports does allow you to drop off a squad on an objective while having the other squad still protected by the transport.

Between the addition of Obsec, the go-first mechanic being mission specific, and deployment being where the game is lost... I think that having the option to double up BSS in a repressor is a good option to have.
I don't think that doubling up is always the right choice, but having the option adds flexibility.

So, if I dropped the Immo, I could get a total of 4 BSS with 3 SB in 2 Repressors. Add back in the Combi-Plasma and 2 Seras for 2k even.

Oh man now I want to buy those repressor bits but I don't actually have the money or the Rhinos in question...

I'm sudden;y hesitant to go entirely with Repressors.

Repressors don't have 12" range on their Heavy Flamers, and can't carry Multimeltas.

I've had a lot of good things out of my MM Immolators, since they can reach the enemy artillery on Hammer and Anvil and get melta-range over IG infantry.

I am questioning if I want the Immolation Flamers for their overwatch ability, because Repressors don't get to fire their heavy flamers in overwatch, while Immolators do. The thing it, it won't stop a Trygon Prime, so I'm not sure if it's going to get the chance to fire at 'stealers and 'gaunts.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm sudden;y hesitant to go entirely with Repressors.

Repressors don't have 12" range on their Heavy Flamers, and can't carry Multimeltas.

I've had a lot of good things out of my MM Immolators, since they can reach the enemy artillery on Hammer and Anvil and get melta-range over IG infantry.

I am questioning if I want the Immolation Flamers for their overwatch ability, because Repressors don't get to fire their heavy flamers in overwatch, while Immolators do. The thing it, it won't stop a Trygon Prime, so I'm not sure if it's going to get the chance to fire at 'stealers and 'gaunts.

I have greater access to Immolators than Repressors, obviously. Do you think the dual-MM Immolator by itself is a good anti-tank 'tank' (if Sisters had to pick one) to cover the gaps in my footslogger's AT? I can fill it with melta-doms, too, of course.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm sudden;y hesitant to go entirely with Repressors.

Repressors don't have 12" range on their Heavy Flamers, and can't carry Multimeltas.

I've had a lot of good things out of my MM Immolators, since they can reach the enemy artillery on Hammer and Anvil and get melta-range over IG infantry.

I am questioning if I want the Immolation Flamers for their overwatch ability, because Repressors don't get to fire their heavy flamers in overwatch, while Immolators do. The thing it, it won't stop a Trygon Prime, so I'm not sure if it's going to get the chance to fire at 'stealers and 'gaunts.

Keep in mind the Heavy Flamers do get to Overwatch, and to devastating effect, on chargers within 8", and on those chargers outside of 9", hoping for re-rolls, adrenal glands, etc... you weren't going to deny them much by going with a Multi-Melta and Immolation Flamer, but losing out on the more general game-impacting value of firing points.

Plus, with smart placement of models, you're using Dominions in Repressors to deny a huge amount of table-space as valid locations for deep-strikers. That value can't be quantified in math-hammer, but has a huge impact on the game.