Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Just finished the first book in Avengers Dissembled. What a great read from start to finish. Non-stop action and a perfect send off for the team. Looking forward to the others in the series.
My favorite part of the TPB is the several crises that break out and how they barely have time to take breath before the next one. The public response is touching in a way.
So far I've avoided specifics. Is it ok or would they still be spoilers?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
... Babs still sat in that chair for a decade. So either he didn't kill the Joker or something else paralyzed Barbara Gordon.
And this marks a new basis for my argument against people who think she should have stayed paralyzed -- when you pose the issue the other way around: either TKJ was indeed an Elsewords book, such that she should never have been paralyzed in the first place, or Babs was indeed "refrigerated" per Gail Simone's famous expression while once again the male characters go unscathed.
Also that recolored version is terrible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/16 18:29:58
Yep. I think Grant Morrison is totally right about this. From Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow to the Watchmen and now apparently to The Killing Joke, Moore seemed obsessed with bringing the superhero genre to an end.
Not to be that guy again but I didn't really like The Killing Joke. I only read it for the first time last year because it's at Chapters now (which goes to Kevin's Smith point about how casual fans only read Killing Joke and The Dark Knight and are getting a misrepresented view of Batman) and I was shocked at how over the top it is. Obviously, I knew Barbara was going to be shot and crippled but there's a whole bunch of other horrible things that happen to her in that too while Commissioner Gordon is forced to watch. It was just too much imo. Also, what I didn't realize was it's a Joker origin story and not a very good one quite frankly.
Wait are you talking about Grant Morrison? Batman Inc was the best Batman title going IMO. But he'll still be writing for DC. He wants to do some riff on the Charlton characters plus something for WW. He's just done with Bruce and Clark for now, I think.
No, I was just doing a general old man "back in my day Batman comics weren't so violent" but TKJ was actually before my day so that doesn't really make sense. However you as an avid long time Batman fan seem to be indicating it's even darker now which is what I was refering too.
TDKR was 1986. Year One was 1987. TKJ was 1988. Morrison's Arkham Asylum was 1989.
It's not like Batman wasn't getting more serious (less Silver Age-esque) before MIller and Moore went to work. Denny O'Neill was writing Batman as a (non-Roger Moore) James Bond type in the Ra's al Ghul stories of the '70s. Heck Crisis on Infinite Earth wiped out the Silver Age in 1985-86. For Batman, the late 80s stuff, however, sealed the deal: only "serious" comics could be good and serious meant viscerally violent, psychologically dark, and overtly ideological. They gave way to Knightfall, an arc about one Batman being phsyically and emotionally destroyed and another one who was violently out of control. And then we got Loeb and Sale's Batman, which is the real basis (rather than Morrison's book) for the creepy design of the Arkham games. Right before 9/11, Gotham itself became victimized in No Man's Land. The broad themes would continue in War Games. And there has been a long, long stretch of writers psychologically torturing Batman from Loeb (Hush) to Morrison (the Black Hand) right up to Snyder today (the Owls). And of course Dick's city is destroyed, Babs has been trapped in the chair, Jason came back as a psychotic villain, Tim's dad is murdered, and Bruce's biological son is a sociopath (who is now dead).
But worst of all, someone let Kevin Smith write some Batman comics.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/16 20:39:20
Manchu wrote: Wait are you talking about Grant Morrison? Batman Inc was the best Batman title going IMO. But he'll still be writing for DC. He wants to do some riff on the Charlton characters plus something for WW. He's just done with Bruce and Clark for now, I think.
Morrison talks about the WW project in that podcast. He's (predictably for him) going back to the roots of the character, including the "alternative lifestyles" themes. It doesn't sound like that's going to be a blatent thing, mind you. But it sounds like we'll see some of the chains motifs, etc. that characterized the earliest stories, Paradise Island as a repressed society, etc.
Edit: Oh...I have a story to share regarding Charlton. Back when the New 52 started up, I overheard a guy in a local comic shop saying somewhat critically that they were turning Captain Atom into Doctor Midnight. I almost chimed in, but decided I wouldn't be the one to tell him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/16 20:56:39
So, I'm lost...we're discussing TKJ from the late 80s, but it's only coming to light now that Batman killed Joker there? Yet I remember Joker in No Man's Land, after Babs was crippled, doing ANOTHER heinous thing to Gordon. So please...can somebody explain this to me? Cz there's either a second Joker, Batman didn't kill him, or we're discussing a remake and I missed it. Is there a 4th option I missed?
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
timetowaste85 wrote: So, I'm lost...we're discussing TKJ from the late 80s, but it's only coming to light now that Batman killed Joker there? Yet I remember Joker in No Man's Land, after Babs was crippled, doing ANOTHER heinous thing to Gordon. So please...can somebody explain this to me? Cz there's either a second Joker, Batman didn't kill him, or we're discussing a remake and I missed it. Is there a 4th option I missed?
Yes, somehow Barbara being crippled remained canon but Joker being killed did not.
gorgon wrote: Morrison talks about the WW project in that podcast. He's (predictably for him) going back to the roots of the character, including the "alternative lifestyles" themes. It doesn't sound like that's going to be a blatent thing, mind you. But it sounds like we'll see some of the chains motifs, etc. that characterized the earliest stories, Paradise Island as a repressed society, etc.
He sort of did that with JLA Earth 2, where "Superwoman" (alias Lois Lane, the antimatter Wonder Woman) apparently engages in BDSM with Jimmy Olsen ...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/16 20:59:53
KamikazeCanuck wrote: What about Tim Burton's Batman? That more of a chicken or egg? Perhaps just the mainstreaming/cementing of Miller and Moore's darker take on him?
Eggcellent question. The movies are set to a different pace. Even mainstream comics are more "with it" (some call it, "ahead of the curve") than what's going on in Hollywood. If you look at the 1989 Batman film, it's definitely dark but it's very stylized. It's a lot sillier than anything in TDKR or the others. (For example, Michael Keaton sleeping upside down -- that almost plays like a Silver Age-style joke on Alan Moore's love of psychodrama.) I'd say the Nolan films are where TDKR, with its fascist overtones, really makes it to the Big Screen.
No problem. Grant Morrison believes Batman kills the Joker at the end of TKJ and no one noticed. I think he's right. As for why no one notice, well, because Moore did not make it explicit. So if it's ambiguous, why do I think Morrison's right? Because Alan Moore super hero work seems to all be about the end of super heroes. Also, Moore had explicit permission from DC to cripple Babs. I've never heard he asked for much less was permitted to do a story where Batman kills the Joker. If Moore did intend to do this, how he did it therefore makes sense.
gorgon wrote: That suggests it was never truly in continuity.
If by "it" you mean TKJ then we've got a problem with Babs in her wheelchair. If by "it" you mean the Joker's alleged death ... well, that's complicated. As Morrison points out, this seems to be the necessary denouement. TKJ isn't that good one way or another but it's a lot more interesting with the ending Morrison suggests -- and just like he points out, the title even makes more sense, too. Formerly, I thought the title was a reference to the Joker himself, that his life was a killing joke. If Batman kills him at the end, well, that's a great punchline. So if the best part of TKJ is not in continuity then ... why on earth did we have to be saddled with its worst part for so long with some people arguing we should still have it today?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/08/16 21:36:42
Speaking of Fascism: Manchu you mentioned how Judge Dredd Year One was boring and I didn't think it was that bad until I read Judge Dredd classics. It is compared to this. Holy cow, like several million people are dead in one issue! Blockmania! This can't really be the first story though right? Maybe Classics is just doing the highlights and Case Files is a better option for the whole story?
Block Mania is far from the first JD arc. I think it's from the mid 200s. And it pales compared to what follows -- the Apocalypse War! The earliest devastating event was the Robot War from prog 10.
Ya, apparently Apocalypse War was a very popular storyline. I guess there just doing the big stories then. You think its that important to actually read what's come before? AFAIK Dredd isn't a character that changes and progresses much (and is proud of it) so maybe highlights is a good idea.
Joe Dredd changes very, very slowly and very subtly. I don't think you have to read every prog to understand any given arc. Feel free to skip around and if you don't understand something just post here.
He Who Controls The Dice Controls The Universe 
