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 MarsNZ wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why You Can't Just Snipe Negan #138897187

Right now, he's not only got a cult of personality going on, but more numbers than you.

He's build himself up to be unassailable. Take him out, and you risk facing a crusade against you by his Lieutenants. Yes that'll likely fall apart eventually - shame you won't be around to enjoy that.

So what do you do? You make him bleed. Let his followers see he's merely mortal. Poke, prod and cajole him into ever rasher actions. Use his ego against him. Break his legend down, render him merely mortal. Take his power away.

As you take out his Lieutenants, he'll have to replace them. And each time, that person is going to be one step removed from the loyalty of their predecessor.

Strip it all away one stroke at a time. Bleed him white. That way, when he falls, there's nobody left believing in his cause and his method. That's how you achieve total victory.

Or you could just mow down Negan and half his lieutenants in one single action while they stand, barely armed and totally unprepared, right in front of you and your 30+ soldiers. Then simply retire and allow the remaining saviours to devour each other in the ensuing power vacuum. There's no way you can spin the scenario as it played out into a plausible one. Every time it's another "I'm going to kill you" from Rick, followed up by an unspoken "but not for another 10+ episodes". Negan is not unassailable. The survivors killed around 50 saviours and suffered minimal losses before they'd even met the real Negan, and the survivors can also confirm there is significant resistance to the tyranny of Negan from within his own organisation - Dwight is an outright rebel and Gavin seems more interested in self-preservation than maintaining Negan's cause. The saviours killed their own doctor, regularly wipe out their tributaries for minor infractions and now have lost all sources of materials. Their options for scavenging are limited by the fact the entire area is hostile to them, they have a significant population of lower class workers who have little to no experience in scavenging or fighting, and their home base is isolated and besieged.

The gun play in this show has become comical at best. Weapons rarely recoil. They are usually operated in full automatic in spite of the fact bullets haven't been mass produced anywhere on Earth for 3-4 years and most operators are slightly above a civilian level of training. On top of that, bullets are expended to break windows when simply throwing a few stones would achieve the same result. Need to light a fire? Why not waste some flares, I mean lighters and matches are surely a rarer commodity especially since you lost your last firestarting device, an RPG-7.

Thank you. You've stated my thoughts exactly. The zombies have become the most plausible part of the show now. The shootouts in the old G.I. Joe cartoons were more tense.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.

As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.

Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.

The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.

Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.

For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.

As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.

Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.

The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.

Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.

For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.

Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.

Is that a risk Rick can take though?

His overconfidence has cause his people an awful lot of trouble on more than one occasion.

Now, he's playing it safe. Deconstruct rather than simply destroy.

lets talk bullets... ive seen it mentioned a few times and funnily enough once by my wife who is gracious enough to watch the show with me while only being mildly interested in it but would there really be a shortage of bullets?

i'm of the opinion that with all of the bullets in the world wouldnt say one national guard armory support a band like ricks indefinitely?

couldnt they shoot full auto at will without putting a dent in the supply or is my image of what is out there overblown?

Given what they're carrying, it doesn't seem unfeasible that they've got lots of rounds.

The last supply run I really remember for Rick and Michonne did clear out an army 'safe zone'.

Loads of Ready To Eat Meal things - and you can almost be certain a significant amount of ammo.

nfe wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.

As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.

Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.

The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.

Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.

For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.

Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.

EXACTLY.

As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.

The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.

Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.

For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.

That, or (comic spoilers ahead)

 Alpharius wrote:
As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.

Although as I alluded to in my spoiler above, they're probably headed to the same endgame as in the comics. Which makes less sense with Negan as a cult leader than as a organized crime boss/businessman. But that's how the writers seem to do things these days...change the story from the comics while keeping certain beats and scenes, even if they don't make the most sense in the new context. The confrontation outside Sanctuary is a perfect example.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Given what they're carrying, it doesn't seem unfeasible that they've got lots of rounds.

The last supply run I really remember for Rick and Michonne did clear out an army 'safe zone'.

Loads of Ready To Eat Meal things - and you can almost be certain a significant amount of ammo.

I thought I would give it a last chance with the new series.

It would work better if they had not given all their weapons and ammo to Negan and then spent many tedious episodes searching for every bullet and weapon they could get their hands on. Even then they gave a significant amount of the new assault rifles and ammo to the dumpster people - who have not shown up yet and may well be Negans ace in the hole.

Sadly the narrative for the last few seasons has been poor - I enjoy Negan on screen but he makes no sense. He is either too brutal or not brutal enough to be the kind of feudal warlord he is obviously emulating - he has bent over backwards repeatedly for Rick so as not to kill that character and its just silly. A cult of personality is going to work but not if he is repeatedly humiliated. As others have said - if things are going this badly - his cult falters and fails and then he dies.

In the episode if they had gunned down Negan - as Rick actually tried to do with his false count, the Saviours were finished. Especially if they had killed the other possible leaders at the same time - again there is an issue that there seems to be an infinite amount of Saviour goons for the tiny population of worked to be supporting - even with the tribute runs

When Negan is introduced in person he has lost 40-50 guys - in response they killed 2 - Glen and Abraham - in reality he would have killed everyone in the primary group - in front of the rest of those at Alexandra not just in the woods and then put a leader in charge with a - get on with it or suffer the same fate. Anyone argue at that point - kill 'em. The problem is that they have to keep Rick alive and that screws the story.

In terms of the episode itself - it was as bad as I expected - slow, sooooo very slow and without any tension - When the entire Ricks Combat Crew of about 30 people open up on Negan, Lieutenants and Eugene not a single one of them gets hit.- what a surprise - oh look the annoying priest might get killed - yawn oh he didn't. Oh look we are exchanging fire and no one dies. Yawn - oh look another bit with Carl that's dull. and so on.

It really feels like they spin out every single little aspect - what should take a few mins in the show might be dwelled on for multiple episodes and still not make a better story.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
lets talk bullets... ive seen it mentioned a few times and funnily enough once by my wife who is gracious enough to watch the show with me while only being mildly interested in it but would there really be a shortage of bullets?

i'm of the opinion that with all of the bullets in the world wouldnt say one national guard armory support a band like ricks indefinitely?

couldnt they shoot full auto at will without putting a dent in the supply or is my image of what is out there overblown?

Society collapsed fairly quickly, so there will be lots of untapped armouries around the country.
Plus gun stores.
Weapons factories.
And Eugene is now capable of manufacturing ammunition, and Alexandria possesses his plans and instructions on how to do so.

 Alpharius wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.

As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.

Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.

The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.

Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.

For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.

Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.

EXACTLY.

As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.

Yes, just to be different than the comic they've gone and made the whole storyline not make sense. In the comic Negan is basically Lawful Evil (as opposed to the Governor who is a chaotic evil madman). His true goal underneath is all is to rebuild society even though his methods are brutal. That's why he gives incredible amounts of leeway to Rick at every turn. Rick's a giant thorn in his side but Negan also recognizes the greatest organizing force outside himself he's ever seen. He wants Rick on his side. In fact he kind of thinks Rick already is and he just needs to make him realize it.
In the show what's Negan's motive here? Burning beds and the occasional doctor? He has none besides generic scenery chewing diabolical dialogue. That's why this whole thing has been a snooze fest fail.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Spoiler:

 Alpharius wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.

As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.

Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.

The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.

Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.

For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.

Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.

EXACTLY.

As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.

Yes, just to be different than the comic they've gone and made the whole storyline not make sense. In the comic Negan is basically Lawful Evil (as opposed to the Governor who is a chaotic evil madman). His true goal underneath is all is to rebuild society even though his methods are brutal. That's why he gives incredible amounts of leeway to Rick at every turn. Rick's a giant thorn in his side but Negan also recognizes the greatest organizing force outside himself he's ever seen. He wants Rick on his side. In fact he kind of thinks Rick already is and he just needs to make him realize it.
In the show what's Negan's motive here? Burning beds and the occasional doctor? He has none besides generic scenery chewing diabolical dialogue. That's why this whole thing has been a snooze fest fail.

Agreed, KC.

I big missed opportunity here, sadly.

I disagree entirely. I think they've made it pretty obvious that Negan wants to rebuild a society that answers to him. He wants peoplease to work for him. And he recognizes the strength of Rick's group.

I think if you don't watch it a week between but actually together you see a lot more consistency in Negan. Even in the show Negan has subjegated or destroyed double digit communities. There is a method to what he does and how he goes about it. Then again I dont have comic Negan to compare him to as I'm not reading the comic at the moment.

Id agree there. Its pretty obvious just by looking at how harsh his punishments are for anything and in that respect his rewards too. The punishments are showing his total domination to not only the punishee but to the rest of his people. And his rewards are a bit heavy handed as well just to show you hes powerful enough to male whatever you want happen.




And that he has a bullet force field

A somewhat meh second episode for me.
It felt a bit too try hard - "we promised you war - SO HERES A FULL BLOWN WAR!".
Agreed on whoever said earlier that the gunplay is ludicrous at this point.
And the cliff hanger, boy I hope they dont pull another Rick gets done over again. Been there, seen that.

Although really liked Morgan this episode.

I must have been groggy when I watched it. I'm not sure I really 'got' the episode. I mean, I watched it...I'm just not sure why it was structured that way. In particular, the Aaron raid just seemed like pointless gunplay filler. The Rick and Daryl raid also seemed pointless, other than that big reveal at the end that lacked drama, since Morales wasn't a character that anyone really ever cared about.

The Jesus 'no-we-can't-kill-them' narrative also felt like a very forced attempt at injecting some tension among the good guys and rehashing moral discussions these characters should have left behind seasons ago. And the artistic flourishes like the flash forwards and character closeups also feel forced.

Again, maybe I was groggy. And grumpy, I dunno.

The in-episode justifications were..

Aaron raid - rather than risk lives by entering the compound and going room to room like Morgan and Jesus did, ambush them, kill a few in the alpha strike then keep them pinned down from behind cover until the dead ones came back and did the job for them (the realisation that lady in charge had shortly before getting chomped.)

Rick and Darryl - they'd been told the Saviour's big calibre weaponry was being stored there by Dwayne (is that his name? Melty face.) so went after it with a view to grabbing it and providing some fire support. Thus far this is the first bit of inside info they'd been fed that doesn't appear to have panned out, which may or not be significant.

Actually I liked the last episode a lot more. It was more All Out War-y. I think it may just be down to less Negan equals more good.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The in-episode justifications were..

Aaron raid - rather than risk lives by entering the compound and going room to room like Morgan and Jesus did, ambush them, kill a few in the alpha strike then keep them pinned down from behind cover until the dead ones came back and did the job for them (the realisation that lady in charge had shortly before getting chomped.)

Rick and Darryl - they'd been told the Saviour's big calibre weaponry was being stored there by Dwayne (is that his name? Melty face.) so went after it with a view to grabbing it and providing some fire support. Thus far this is the first bit of inside info they'd been fed that doesn't appear to have panned out, which may or not be significant.

I got the 'what' fine. They're picking off outposts and getting some work done while Sanctuary is pinned down. Coulda made that clearer for some folks, but I get that and what was going on in the story.

I just didn't get the 'why'. As in why they spend a whole episode on these stories. Rick and Daryl searching closet after closet...Aaron and the gang in a stationary shootout without any interesting dynamics...Ezekiel and Carol looking for a guy. Presumably this will all come together as part of Rick's grand plan. And I'm not allergic to openendedness (my fav show this year was Twin Peaks: The Return). But it all felt kinda repetitive, tired and pointless.

And regarding the flash forwards...I know what bearded Rick is all about. That's fine. But red and glassy-eyed shaky Rick? Can't we just be done with that guy? Can't Andrew Lincoln bring something else to the table?

I guess the writers are somewhat between a rock and a hard place, if they don't show these events on screen and just use an exposition device, people are going to complain they didn't see it, and maybe without them the events didn't carry enough impact, while other people are going to find them unnecessary filler that doesn't contribute anything to the overall narrative?

Evidently they felt the former group was larger than the latter and decided to play to them.

FWIW, I've found the whole affair underwhelming so far this season, it feels like we've had (barely) one episode of content stretched out over two episodes.

Im trying to enjoy this but the shooting mechanics so far are driving me friggin nuts! Everyone is an incredibly poor shot, even with rifles and even being what...20 yards away? They cant seem to really hit anything and that just baffles me!

Even Chris Hardwick had to admit it was "Stormtrooper shooting".

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Even Chris Hardwick had to admit it was "Stormtrooper shooting".

I take it we missed the line from the Savior lady where she talked about how the other side didn't know how to shoot and "didn't have the balls" to push in?

And how after they got bottled up she finally realized why the Hilltop/Alexandrians weren't pushing forward?

Nope didnt miss that at all. There was more than one fire fight going on and they ALL sucked at shooting all a sudden

It was actually far more realistic shooting than what usually takes place in the show. But watching characters miss with most of their rounds isn't terribly interesting either.

I wouldnt argue if these armies were completely unskilled and far away from one another. I actually dont mind the ones missing with pistols because pistols are not accurate for squat at distance. But the majority of these people are veterans of several altercations, or at least has had some form of training.


And most importantly the distance! They are shooting at one another in hallways and small parking lots FFS. Not to mention what you brought up as far as how unrealistic their accuracy is on say....zombies. BOOM! Headshot, with a suppressed pistol from 20 yards. Easy. Same distance with a rifle....forget it. Imperial Stormtropper

Oh, the accuracy with pistols is insane. But then Hollywood has a fine tradition of that going back to cowboy films.

Comic talk:

 gorgon wrote:
Oh, the accuracy with pistols is insane. But then Hollywood has a fine tradition of that going back to cowboy films.

Im fine with a spaghetti western......maybe I should start looking at this show like that, then I wont get so annoyed with the gun play

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Comic talk:

Spoiler:

So ah, anyone confused about the latest issue of the comic? Youknow, the whole Jesus possibly being infected thing?

The Whisperers covered their weapons in zombie guts, which has been shown to turn someone before. Jesus took a cut to his arm, which is seen bleeding, from Beta's knife. Nobody addresses this in the issue, despite them presumably knowing the effects of the Whisperer's weapons (people mentioned it a few times in previous issues).

Just sort of weird it was glossed over.

Beta being a basket ball player explains his height at least.

Comic talk: