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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 19:16:12
Subject: Re:Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Regular Dakkanaut
Europe - Exiled American Dissident/Militant
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Guys -
I saw this post by GW on thier facebook page. Do you think this is in response to the current lawsuit? I think in part this and the other discussion about the Amazon eBook stuff. I think this our lawyers/barristers said something and now we have to clarify due to poor word choices.
Your thoughts as they aplly to the topic at hand. I'm rooting for CH.
Games Workshop owns and protects many valuable trademarks in a number of territories and classes across the world. For example, 'Warhammer' and 'Space Marine' are registered trademarks in a number of classes and territories. In some other territories and classes they are unregistered trademarks protected by commercial use. Whenever we are informed of, or otherwise discover, a commercially available product whose title is or uses a Games Workshop trademark without our consent, we have no choice but to take reasonable action. We would be failing in our duty to our shareholders if we did not protect our property.
To be clear, Games Workshop has never claimed to own words or phrases such as 'warhammer' or 'space marine' as regards their general use in everyday life, for example within a body of prose. By illustration, although Games Workshop clearly owns many registered trademarks for the Warhammer brand, we do not claim to own the word 'warhammer' in common use as a hand weapon.
Trademarks as opposed to use of a word in prose or everyday language are two very different things. Games Workshop is always vigilant in protecting the former, but never makes any claim to owning the latter.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/games-workshop/games-workshop-and-the-protection-of-our-trademarks/595792240435610
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Dark Angels - Lots
Imperial Guard- Lots + Tanks
Deathwatch - A little
/ - Moderate
/ - Worldeaters (30K) - Some - - 40K A lot
- Red Corsairs - Moderate |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 19:30:55
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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It's to do with the fact that their Twitter was being spammed by people disgruntled with the 'space marine' trademarking fiasco. I don't look at it, but I'm guessing facebook was probably subject to similar treatment.
Looks like they are not backing down in any case over the attempt to trademark such generic a term as 'space marine'.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 22:40:08
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Dakka Veteran
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Yeah it's over them trying to block the use of Space Marine in a SF novel by MCA Hogarth. That attracted a lot more attention by a much wider range of people than the CHS lawsuit. When Neil Gaiman starts tweeting to his two million followers about a novel being pulled from amazon, gak gets noticed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 22:46:01
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos
Lake Forest, California, South Orange County
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I maintain that generic terms should not be allowed to be trademarked for such a broad market as books.
Didn't GW also trademark 40,000 in that market? How can it be legal to trademark a number?
I'm going to trademark "the" and "of" in the book market, that'll teach em.
Is it possible for enough people to demand that a trademark be revoked and have it pass? It's nothing like a copyright or patent, as GW did not create "space marine".
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"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 22:56:12
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Fixture of Dakka
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I don't think they've got a very good position on the title thing. USPTO wrote:The title, or a portion of a title, of a single creative work must be refused registration under Sections 1, 2 and 45 of the Trademark Act unless the title has been used on a series of creative works. 3 The title of a single creative work is not registrable on either the Principal or Supplemental Register. Herbko Inter'l, Inc. v. Kappa Books, Inc ., 308 F.3d 1156, 1162, 64 USPQ2d 1375, 1378 (Fed. Cir. 2002) ("the title of a single book cannot serve as a source identifier"); In re Cooper, 254 F.2d 611, 615-16, 117 USPQ 396, 400 (C.C.P.A. 1958), cert. denied , 358 U.S. 840, 119 USPQ 501 (1958) ("A book title ... identifies a specific literary work ... and is not associated in the public mind with the publisher, printer or bookseller...."); In re Posthuma , 45 USPQ2d 2011 (TTAB 1998) (title of a live theater production held unregistrable); In re Hal Leonard Publishing Corp ., 15 USPQ2d 1574 (TTAB 1990) (INSTANT KEYBOARD, as used on music instruction books, found unregistrable as the title of a single work); In re Appleby , 159 USPQ 126 (TTAB 1968) (title of single phonograph record, as distinguished from series, does not function as mark).
They'd need a series of books with "Space Marine" as the series name, which (to my knowledge) doesn't exist. Or else they're trying to argue pure customer confusion, which brings you closer to a "famous mark" argument, which they just plain don't have.
But we're wandering off-topic. There is a thread to discuss this topic elsewhere.
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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 23:00:09
Subject: Re:Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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Reminds me of when Marvel sued for ownership of the letter X and Gen X was renamed Gen 13.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 04:01:25
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Fixture of Dakka
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/09 04:17:07
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 04:04:23
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Thank you agnosto for posting this information.
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Adam's Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun. -and for something silly below-
"We are the Ultramodrines, And We Shall Fear No Trolls. bear this USR with pride".
Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?
You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 05:26:35
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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So.. what are the odds this will completely blow up in GWs face and 3 years from now there will be a 120 page thread about the GW vs Hogarth case?
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 05:47:42
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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that would mean this case is over in the next 3 years....
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DT:80S+++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k00+D++A(WTF)/areWD100R+++++T(T)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 05:59:52
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jonolikespie wrote:So.. what are the odds this will completely blow up in GWs face and 3 years from now there will be a 120 page thread about the GW vs Hogarth case?
Slim to none. It seems things are resolved for the moment, unless GW decides to sue her as well. Does it strike anyone as odd that GW seems to make it's worst decisions around the Christmas holiday season? Also I liked the comment in the BBC article about them having a "blanket policy" of not speaking to the media. Must match their "blanket policy" on not advertising.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 07:07:31
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Dakka Veteran
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She has the publicity and offers of help now (a number of lawyers have offered pro bono services)- they may not materialize again a year from now or two. So she may decide to go for some form of declaratory relief rather than waiting for GW to send another take down or start a suit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 11:29:35
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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I don't mean to be rude, but could you guys please use the proper thread for the GW vs. Space Marine novel topic?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/09 11:30:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 11:46:13
Subject: Re:Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Still, the fact that major SciFi novelists and BBC are now aware of the incompetent bullies of GW legal is relevant to this lawsuit. Even if the details are not. Maybe someone could contact BBC and tell them about this lawsuit here
I love it how any GW legal bullying is immediately countered by a queue of pro bono lawyers
Even if this causes prices for Codices go up to 100 US-$.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/09 11:48:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 12:02:21
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Fixture of Dakka
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Seriously, folks - STAY ON TOPIC. There is a place to discuss the TM stuff elsewhere.
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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 21:41:39
Subject: Re:Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Wondering Why the Emperor Left
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Just a matter of time regardles
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"telling a segment of your target market to go feth themselves and the model trikes they rode in on is probably not a good idea" -Veteran Sergeant on squats and sisters |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 23:32:14
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Wondering how much the Chapterhouse case has cost so far. Will there come a point that GW cannot afford to keep it going with CH having free representation.
They really can't expect to recover much of the legal fees back if they won, can they?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/09 23:44:22
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.
If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.
As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/10 00:44:52
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.
If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.
As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.
If they thought they had a chance of winning, the costs would have been capitalized and included as an intangible asset as copyright/trademark. Last year's report (Where the trial was ongoing) had no such asset associated with the trial. Thus, they had to expense it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/10 05:36:14
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Been Around the Block
Texas
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skyth wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.
If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.
As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.
If they thought they had a chance of winning, the costs would have been capitalized and included as an intangible asset as copyright/trademark. Last year's report (Where the trial was ongoing) had no such asset associated with the trial. Thus, they had to expense it.
That could occur under GAAP but we are talking about the UK which would likely be using IFRS standards. Could be slightly different accounting treat than US standards.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/10 11:26:51
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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pitboy2710 wrote:Will there come a point that GW cannot afford to keep it going with CH having free representation.
Some day they will try to charge £30.00 for a Codex, £45.00 for a two-sprue flyer, £75.00 for a starter box and £36.00 for a Finecast Troll  ... wait!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/10 13:50:43
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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knightdrake wrote: skyth wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.
If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.
As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.
If they thought they had a chance of winning, the costs would have been capitalized and included as an intangible asset as copyright/trademark. Last year's report (Where the trial was ongoing) had no such asset associated with the trial. Thus, they had to expense it.
That could occur under GAAP but we are talking about the UK which would likely be using IFRS standards. Could be slightly different accounting treat than US standards.
IFRS is the same with regards to intangibles last I knew.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/11 01:26:48
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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So for the layman what is the status? Who's winning? Where is CH's cheering section?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/11 01:38:56
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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The Hive Mind
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Current status is:
Nothing exciting is happening.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/11 05:35:35
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Posts with Authority
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GW is losing (money), but CH isn't winning.
This is not something that GW can actually win at this point - they have sunk too much money into it. Even if a decision is made in their favor they will have lost more than they have gained.
A saner course might have been to officially license CH, but that has its own perils.
The Auld Grump
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Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/11 07:51:46
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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TheAuldGrump wrote:.
A saner course might have been to officially license CH, but that has its own perils.
That still suggests that CH need the permission of GW to make what they do, they claim not. So even if GW were to offer a licence, at a price be aide it wouldn't be free, CH are not obliged to accept it to stay in business. GW should have just ignored CH but their case against them came at the end of a campaign of C&Ds being handed out for all sorts of silly things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/12 08:59:27
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Hi everybody i'm on the sick at the moment and bored out of my skull, as such I have read through the most recent pacer unlocks.
There is a large entry in which gw claim against all ch's remaining items, this includes wonderful entries such as a claim against a warhammer with feathers on because space marines use an eagle theme and there was a thunderhammer in the 2003 citadel catalouge that also had a feather on( all thoigh they cannont confirm who sculpted it and therfore if they actually have copyright).
Another favorite of mine is they list a set of chapter house combat claws released march 2012 and as part of there claim then show some fw lightning claws released in may.
The next item is a letter from gw tothe us copyright office in regatds to there declined copyright request. They advise the office of there ongoing legal action and acknowledgethere right to appeal. However they advise they will not be doing this asthey are getting the copyrights through the courts neh neh nee neh neh (I may have paraphrased the last part).
As such gw now appear to be hoping to get the required copyrights during the procedings they started against ch for breaking there copyrights.
While I am sure ch are not squeeky cleanin regards to the alligations I am a little worried regarding the most recentclaims by gw.
As these contain a lot of the generic psuedo historical yrappings they use such as eagles,helmet crests etc which f given copyrights would potentially allow gw to cause problems for historical and fantasy/scifi mimature makers.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 09:31:44
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/12 10:02:30
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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SeanDrake wrote:
As such gw now appear to be hoping to get the required copyrights during the procedings they started against ch for breaking there copyrights.
Sounds like something GW would do.
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 01:59:54
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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Dakka Veteran
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New filings:
Chapterhouse Studios LLC (“Chapterhouse”) writes to complete the record regarding a recent Games Workshop Limited (“GW”) submission. On January 31, 2013, GW submitted a “Notice of Filing” (Dkt. No. 275) to inform the Court that it had filed a letter with the U.S. Copyright Office responding to a refusal to register its Assault Squad Shoulder Pad because it “lack[ed] the authorship necessary to support a copyright claim.” Although GW attached its own letter to its Notice of Filing (“Games Workshop’s January 31 Letter”), it omitted the Copyright Office’s letter refusing registration (“Refusal Letter”), which is attached hereto as Exhibit A.
The Refusal Letter is dated January 4, 2013 and addressed to GW’s trial counsel in this action, Jonathan Moskin. At the January 14, 2013 hearing on Chapterhouse’s Motion for Reconsideration, Mr. Moskin represented that all correspondence with the Copyright Office had been produced, although ten days had passed since the Refusal Letter was sent. Moreover, although Chapterhouse’s counsel requested that it immediately be provided with the refusal letter once GW’s attorney received it, GW’s counsel refused to provide it until, as he put it, GW decided how to respond, and it was withheld from Chapterhouse’s counsel until January 31, 2013
They intend to refile the motion to reconsider the summary judgment.
Page 6 of the pdf has the copyright office's rejection letter -
We carmot register this work because it lacks the authorship necessary to support a copyright claim.
Copyright protects original works of authorship that are fixed in some physical form. See 17 U.S.C. §102(a). As used in the copyright context, the term “original” means that the work was independently created by the author (as opposed to copied from other works), and that it possesses at least a minimal degree of creativity. See Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991).
To satisfy these requirements, a work of the visual arts must contain a thinimum amount of pictorial, graphic or sculptural authorship. Copyright does not protect familiar symbols or designs; basic geometric shapes; words and short phrases such as names, titles, and slogans; or mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering or coloring. See 37 C.F.R. §202.1. Further, copyright does not extend to any idea, concept, system, or process which may be embodied in a work. 17 U.S.C. § 102(b).
Neither the aesthetic appeal or commercial value of a work, nor the amount of time and effort expended to create a work are factors that are considered under the copyright law. See Bleistein v. Donaldson, 188 U.S. 239 (1903); Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991). The question is whether there is sufficient creative authorship within the meaning of the copyright statute and settled case law.
After careful consideration, we have determined that this particular work will not support a claim to copyright for 2-Dimensional artwork or sculpture under the standards described above.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
____________________________________________
Also 278, 279, and 280 by GW. I believe they've decided to go on the offensive over CHS not turning over some forum posts and facebook pages...and some 'new post' email notifications. Sort of a... Dad! Dad! They did it toooooo! kind of vibe.
Plaintiff Games Workshop Limited (“Games Workshop”) respectfully submits this Memorandum in support of its motion to clarify now, while there may be time to remedy the matter during discovery, the consequences of Chapterhouse’s failure to comply with two prior Court orders in this case regarding discovery and its admitted failure to preserve documents. For the sake of brevity, Games Workshop has not included with this motion all correspondence seeking to resolve these matters without Court intervention.
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Chapterhouse filing 277 and exhibits |
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ilnd-067012176802.pdf |
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ilnd-067012176805.pdf |
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 02:16:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/13 02:13:09
Subject: Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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Can someone translate
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