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Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Europe - Exiled American Dissident/Militant

Guys -

I saw this post by GW on thier facebook page. Do you think this is in response to the current lawsuit? I think in part this and the other discussion about the Amazon eBook stuff. I think this our lawyers/barristers said something and now we have to clarify due to poor word choices.

Your thoughts as they aplly to the topic at hand. I'm rooting for CH.

Games Workshop owns and protects many valuable trademarks in a number of territories and classes across the world. For example, 'Warhammer' and 'Space Marine' are registered trademarks in a number of classes and territories. In some other territories and classes they are unregistered trademarks protected by commercial use. Whenever we are informed of, or otherwise discover, a commercially available product whose title is or uses a Games Workshop trademark without our consent, we have no choice but to take reasonable action. We would be failing in our duty to our shareholders if we did not protect our property.

To be clear, Games Workshop has never claimed to own words or phrases such as 'warhammer' or 'space marine' as regards their general use in everyday life, for example within a body of prose. By illustration, although Games Workshop clearly owns many registered trademarks for the Warhammer brand, we do not claim to own the word 'warhammer' in common use as a hand weapon.

Trademarks as opposed to use of a word in prose or everyday language are two very different things. Games Workshop is always vigilant in protecting the former, but never makes any claim to owning the latter.



https://www.facebook.com/notes/games-workshop/games-workshop-and-the-protection-of-our-trademarks/595792240435610

Dark Angels - Lots
Imperial Guard- Lots + Tanks
Deathwatch - A little
/ - Moderate
/ - Worldeaters (30K) - Some - - 40K A lot
- Red Corsairs - Moderate 
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

It's to do with the fact that their Twitter was being spammed by people disgruntled with the 'space marine' trademarking fiasco. I don't look at it, but I'm guessing facebook was probably subject to similar treatment.

Looks like they are not backing down in any case over the attempt to trademark such generic a term as 'space marine'.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Yeah it's over them trying to block the use of Space Marine in a SF novel by MCA Hogarth. That attracted a lot more attention by a much wider range of people than the CHS lawsuit. When Neil Gaiman starts tweeting to his two million followers about a novel being pulled from amazon, gak gets noticed.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos






Lake Forest, California, South Orange County

I maintain that generic terms should not be allowed to be trademarked for such a broad market as books.

Didn't GW also trademark 40,000 in that market? How can it be legal to trademark a number?

I'm going to trademark "the" and "of" in the book market, that'll teach em.

Is it possible for enough people to demand that a trademark be revoked and have it pass? It's nothing like a copyright or patent, as GW did not create "space marine".

"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

I don't think they've got a very good position on the title thing.
USPTO wrote:The title, or a portion of a title, of a single creative work must be refused registration under Sections 1, 2 and 45 of the Trademark Act unless the title has been used on a series of creative works. 3 The title of a single creative work is not registrable on either the Principal or Supplemental Register. Herbko Inter'l, Inc. v. Kappa Books, Inc ., 308 F.3d 1156, 1162, 64 USPQ2d 1375, 1378 (Fed. Cir. 2002) ("the title of a single book cannot serve as a source identifier"); In re Cooper, 254 F.2d 611, 615-16, 117 USPQ 396, 400 (C.C.P.A. 1958), cert. denied , 358 U.S. 840, 119 USPQ 501 (1958) ("A book title ... identifies a specific literary work ... and is not associated in the public mind with the publisher, printer or bookseller...."); In re Posthuma , 45 USPQ2d 2011 (TTAB 1998) (title of a live theater production held unregistrable); In re Hal Leonard Publishing Corp ., 15 USPQ2d 1574 (TTAB 1990) (INSTANT KEYBOARD, as used on music instruction books, found unregistrable as the title of a single work); In re Appleby , 159 USPQ 126 (TTAB 1968) (title of single phonograph record, as distinguished from series, does not function as mark).
They'd need a series of books with "Space Marine" as the series name, which (to my knowledge) doesn't exist. Or else they're trying to argue pure customer confusion, which brings you closer to a "famous mark" argument, which they just plain don't have.

But we're wandering off-topic. There is a thread to discuss this topic elsewhere.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker






Reminds me of when Marvel sued for ownership of the letter X and Gen X was renamed Gen 13.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

On the MCA Hogarth thing; she beat GW with the help of EFF apparently.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/mca-hogarth-trademark-bullying-and-free-speech

MCA's original story here:

http://mcahogarth.org/?p=10593

Looks like BBC picked up the story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/09 04:17:07


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 agnosto wrote:
On the MCA Hogarth thing; she beat GW with the help of EFF apparently.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/mca-hogarth-trademark-bullying-and-free-speech


Thank you agnosto for posting this information.

Adam's Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun. -and for something silly below-

"We are the Ultramodrines, And We Shall Fear No Trolls. bear this USR with pride".

Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?

You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

So.. what are the odds this will completely blow up in GWs face and 3 years from now there will be a 120 page thread about the GW vs Hogarth case?

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Chicago

that would mean this case is over in the next 3 years....


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 jonolikespie wrote:
So.. what are the odds this will completely blow up in GWs face and 3 years from now there will be a 120 page thread about the GW vs Hogarth case?


Slim to none. It seems things are resolved for the moment, unless GW decides to sue her as well. Does it strike anyone as odd that GW seems to make it's worst decisions around the Christmas holiday season? Also I liked the comment in the BBC article about them having a "blanket policy" of not speaking to the media. Must match their "blanket policy" on not advertising.

   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




She has the publicity and offers of help now (a number of lawyers have offered pro bono services)- they may not materialize again a year from now or two. So she may decide to go for some form of declaratory relief rather than waiting for GW to send another take down or start a suit.
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

I don't mean to be rude, but could you guys please use the proper thread for the GW vs. Space Marine novel topic?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/09 11:30:37


 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Still, the fact that major SciFi novelists and BBC are now aware of the incompetent bullies of GW legal is relevant to this lawsuit. Even if the details are not. Maybe someone could contact BBC and tell them about this lawsuit here

I love it how any GW legal bullying is immediately countered by a queue of pro bono lawyers
Even if this causes prices for Codices go up to 100 US-$.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/09 11:48:54


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If you want to understand the concept of the "Greater Good", read this article, and you never again call Tau commies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

Seriously, folks - STAY ON TOPIC. There is a place to discuss the TM stuff elsewhere.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Wondering Why the Emperor Left





 Kroothawk wrote:
Even if this causes prices for Codices go up to 100 US-$.


Just a matter of time regardles

"telling a segment of your target market to go feth themselves and the model trikes they rode in on is probably not a good idea" -Veteran Sergeant on squats and sisters 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




UK

Wondering how much the Chapterhouse case has cost so far. Will there come a point that GW cannot afford to keep it going with CH having free representation.

They really can't expect to recover much of the legal fees back if they won, can they?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.

If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.

As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.

Warboss Gubbinz
http://www.snakeyesgaming.blogspot.com

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.

If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.

As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.


If they thought they had a chance of winning, the costs would have been capitalized and included as an intangible asset as copyright/trademark. Last year's report (Where the trial was ongoing) had no such asset associated with the trial. Thus, they had to expense it.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



Texas

 skyth wrote:
 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.

If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.

As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.


If they thought they had a chance of winning, the costs would have been capitalized and included as an intangible asset as copyright/trademark. Last year's report (Where the trial was ongoing) had no such asset associated with the trial. Thus, they had to expense it.


That could occur under GAAP but we are talking about the UK which would likely be using IFRS standards. Could be slightly different accounting treat than US standards.
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut







pitboy2710 wrote:
Will there come a point that GW cannot afford to keep it going with CH having free representation.

Some day they will try to charge £30.00 for a Codex, £45.00 for a two-sprue flyer, £75.00 for a starter box and £36.00 for a Finecast Troll ... wait!

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The Dusk-Wraiths of Szith Morcane (my Dark Eldar blog): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364786.page
Kroothawk's Malifaux Blog http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/455759.page
If you want to understand the concept of the "Greater Good", read this article, and you never again call Tau commies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





knightdrake wrote:
 skyth wrote:
 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Most likely the cost is still in the 6 figure range.

If GW win's its not really the cost of counsel, GW considers this an investment in protecting their IP. I would be curious to see if this is mentioned in the investment report coming up.

As long as we keep buying GW can afford to keep this up forever.


If they thought they had a chance of winning, the costs would have been capitalized and included as an intangible asset as copyright/trademark. Last year's report (Where the trial was ongoing) had no such asset associated with the trial. Thus, they had to expense it.


That could occur under GAAP but we are talking about the UK which would likely be using IFRS standards. Could be slightly different accounting treat than US standards.


IFRS is the same with regards to intangibles last I knew.
   
Made in us
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Lincolnton, N.C.

So for the layman what is the status? Who's winning? Where is CH's cheering section?

My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba
Order of Saint Pan Thera


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Made in us
The Hive Mind





Current status is:
Nothing exciting is happening.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So for the layman what is the status? Who's winning? Where is CH's cheering section?
GW is losing (money), but CH isn't winning.

This is not something that GW can actually win at this point - they have sunk too much money into it. Even if a decision is made in their favor they will have lost more than they have gained.

A saner course might have been to officially license CH, but that has its own perils.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
.

A saner course might have been to officially license CH, but that has its own perils.


That still suggests that CH need the permission of GW to make what they do, they claim not. So even if GW were to offer a licence, at a price be aide it wouldn't be free, CH are not obliged to accept it to stay in business. GW should have just ignored CH but their case against them came at the end of a campaign of C&Ds being handed out for all sorts of silly things.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Hi everybody i'm on the sick at the moment and bored out of my skull, as such I have read through the most recent pacer unlocks.
There is a large entry in which gw claim against all ch's remaining items, this includes wonderful entries such as a claim against a warhammer with feathers on because space marines use an eagle theme and there was a thunderhammer in the 2003 citadel catalouge that also had a feather on( all thoigh they cannont confirm who sculpted it and therfore if they actually have copyright).
Another favorite of mine is they list a set of chapter house combat claws released march 2012 and as part of there claim then show some fw lightning claws released in may.

The next item is a letter from gw tothe us copyright office in regatds to there declined copyright request. They advise the office of there ongoing legal action and acknowledgethere right to appeal. However they advise they will not be doing this asthey are getting the copyrights through the courts neh neh nee neh neh (I may have paraphrased the last part).
As such gw now appear to be hoping to get the required copyrights during the procedings they started against ch for breaking there copyrights.

While I am sure ch are not squeeky cleanin regards to the alligations I am a little worried regarding the most recentclaims by gw.
As these contain a lot of the generic psuedo historical yrappings they use such as eagles,helmet crests etc which f given copyrights would potentially allow gw to cause problems for historical and fantasy/scifi mimature makers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 09:31:44


Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

SeanDrake wrote:

As such gw now appear to be hoping to get the required copyrights during the procedings they started against ch for breaking there copyrights.


Sounds like something GW would do.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




New filings:


Chapterhouse Studios LLC (“Chapterhouse”) writes to complete the record regarding a recent Games Workshop Limited (“GW”) submission. On January 31, 2013, GW submitted a “Notice of Filing” (Dkt. No. 275) to inform the Court that it had filed a letter with the U.S. Copyright Office responding to a refusal to register its Assault Squad Shoulder Pad because it “lack[ed] the authorship necessary to support a copyright claim.” Although GW attached its own letter to its Notice of Filing (“Games Workshop’s January 31 Letter”), it omitted the Copyright Office’s letter refusing registration (“Refusal Letter”), which is attached hereto as Exhibit A.
The Refusal Letter is dated January 4, 2013 and addressed to GW’s trial counsel in this action, Jonathan Moskin. At the January 14, 2013 hearing on Chapterhouse’s Motion for Reconsideration, Mr. Moskin represented that all correspondence with the Copyright Office had been produced, although ten days had passed since the Refusal Letter was sent. Moreover, although Chapterhouse’s counsel requested that it immediately be provided with the refusal letter once GW’s attorney received it, GW’s counsel refused to provide it until, as he put it, GW decided how to respond, and it was withheld from Chapterhouse’s counsel until January 31, 2013



They intend to refile the motion to reconsider the summary judgment.

Page 6 of the pdf has the copyright office's rejection letter -


We carmot register this work because it lacks the authorship necessary to support a copyright claim.

Copyright protects original works of authorship that are fixed in some physical form. See 17 U.S.C. §102(a). As used in the copyright context, the term “original” means that the work was independently created by the author (as opposed to copied from other works), and that it possesses at least a minimal degree of creativity. See Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991).

To satisfy these requirements, a work of the visual arts must contain a thinimum amount of pictorial, graphic or sculptural authorship. Copyright does not protect familiar symbols or designs; basic geometric shapes; words and short phrases such as names, titles, and slogans; or mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering or coloring. See 37 C.F.R. §202.1. Further, copyright does not extend to any idea, concept, system, or process which may be embodied in a work. 17 U.S.C. § 102(b).

Neither the aesthetic appeal or commercial value of a work, nor the amount of time and effort expended to create a work are factors that are considered under the copyright law. See Bleistein v. Donaldson, 188 U.S. 239 (1903); Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991). The question is whether there is sufficient creative authorship within the meaning of the copyright statute and settled case law.
After careful consideration, we have determined that this particular work will not support a claim to copyright for 2-Dimensional artwork or sculpture under the standards described above.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

____________________________________________

Also 278, 279, and 280 by GW. I believe they've decided to go on the offensive over CHS not turning over some forum posts and facebook pages...and some 'new post' email notifications. Sort of a... Dad! Dad! They did it toooooo! kind of vibe.

Plaintiff Games Workshop Limited (“Games Workshop”) respectfully submits this Memorandum in support of its motion to clarify now, while there may be time to remedy the matter during discovery, the consequences of Chapterhouse’s failure to comply with two prior Court orders in this case regarding discovery and its admitted failure to preserve documents. For the sake of brevity, Games Workshop has not included with this motion all correspondence seeking to resolve these matters without Court intervention.
 Filename ilnd-8110merged.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description Chapterhouse filing 277 and exhibits
 File size 331 Kbytes

 Filename ilnd-8140merged.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description 278
 File size 6655 Kbytes

 Filename ilnd-067012176802.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description 279
 File size 24 Kbytes

 Filename ilnd-067012176805.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description 280
 File size 28 Kbytes

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 02:16:04


 
   
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