Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Grey Knights use MkVIII armor.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Grey Knights use MkVIII armor.

But considering that the Two Lost Primarchs went missing before (or during) the HH, what they currently use is a bit irrelevant.

The Grey Knights geneseed is taken directly from the Emperor Himself, so definitely not one of the Missing Primarchs. They, in fact, have purer geneseed than any other Space Marine currently existing.

Regular Space Marine:
Emperor -> Primarch -> Mixing Bowl of Science and 10,000 years of geneseed degradation -> Modern Astartes

Grey Knight:
Emperor -> Grey Knight in M41.

Yup. They are as pure as it is possible to be. They'd still have 10,000 years of use to contend with, but they've got the best technology and knowledge to reduce degradation.

And their banks of geneseed were full when they first appeared. One has to wonder if they have ever even run through the original supply yet to even need to start growing new sets.

I'm not sure why it keeps being brought up that the missing primarchs were turned to chaos or took part in the horus heresy.

The novel The First Heretic has Magnus and Lorgar talking about them and their vows to never discuss what happened 40-50 years (the vow was taken for both primarchs on the same day) before the heresy.

Horus wasn't waramster by a long stretch when the events of the missing 2 took place, and it is said Lorgar is the chosen of the Gods to start the civil war, which indicates he was the first to be corrupted by chaos.

The book really sheds a lot of light as well on other details.

At one part, it is said that one of the Primarchs had done something so terrible that the Gal Vorbak contemplate killing him in his gestation tube during the time travel vision to prevent the attrocity.

Combining this with Sanguinius telling Horus he was afraid that the Emperor will purge his chapter if he finds out about the Red Thirst, I hypothesize that the one Primarch had a similar geneseed problem that took hold of him. He killed his brother primarch which led to him and his chapter being purged by the Space wolves. The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

An event like that would be so horrible and be such a bad mark on the legions it would be purged from records. One Primarch was Lost, the other Forgotten.

It's pretty much stated in a few novels that at least one legion was purged by the Emperors order by Russ and the Spacewolves.

So by the evidence, we know this much:
1. One primarch did some unspeakable stuff and got eliminated for it.
2. The other had something wrong with the geneseed, and it became such a problem that they were eliminated.

So what we really need are more details within those confines.

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

 Psienesis wrote:

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

Even if they were at the time the largest already, taking in 30,000 Marines would still cause the largest legion to swell in size.

From what we know the 2 primarchs disappeared at the same time since the oath taken was for both and at that same time the ultras saw a spike in legion growth.

 stormotron wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

Even if they were at the time the largest already, taking in 30,000 Marines would still cause the largest legion to swell in size.

From what we know the 2 primarchs disappeared at the same time since the oath taken was for both and at that same time the ultras saw a spike in legion growth.

The theory that the Ultramarines conveniently swelled in numbers is a classic 40K case of 'Correlation' being mixed up with 'Causation'. Yes, the two missing Legions went missing around the same time as this growth in numbers occurred, but that doesn't mean that the missing Legions we're absorbed. I'm with Psienesis on this.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 stormotron wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The surviving legion, who had no primarch was then combined with the ultramarines.

This myth has been debunked so many times, it is amazing that it keeps getting repeated. Even the GW writers have debunked this, ffs.

The UM were a super-huge Legion because they had the most planets to recruit from, the most-efficient recruiting methods, the most-stable of geneseed. Efficient Legion is efficient.

Even if they were at the time the largest already, taking in 30,000 Marines would still cause the largest legion to swell in size.

From what we know the 2 primarchs disappeared at the same time since the oath taken was for both and at that same time the ultras saw a spike in legion growth.

The theory that the Ultramarines conveniently swelled in numbers is a classic 40K case of 'Correlation' being mixed up with 'Causation'. Yes, the two missing Legions went missing around the same time as this growth in numbers occurred, but that doesn't mean that the missing Legions we're absorbed. I'm with Psienesis on this.

You know the theory is false wen the author of the book conataining the theory says that it's false.

Yea that's been confirmed by word of god to be false. What is almost express cannon is that the wolves wiped out at least one legion.

 dusara217 wrote:
You know the theory is false wen the author of the book conataining the theory says that it's false.

That helps too hahaha

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Yea that's been confirmed by word of god to be false. What is almost express cannon is that the wolves wiped out at least one legion.

And that bring us round to the whole "The Lost" and "The Purged" thing.

Another thing could be that the Primarch just didn't want to be a warrior.



But Lorgar said to Night Haunter, on Istvaan V, that he was the only one out of twenty who wanted to be a scholar.



Or maybe the "Lost" primarch was just never found. That could explain allot.

 English Assassin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Relatively homogenous? I remember reading (in Tales of Heresy) that the War Hounds (Pre-Angron World Eaters) were pretty terrifying on the field, and the Thousand Sons were prone to genetic defects and also had a high concentration of pskers in their midst. This can't be coincidence and merely something each legion developed over time, can it?

I don't see that being prone to spontaneous mutation was likely something the Emperor planned for the Thousand Sons, no. If I remember A Thousand Sons correctly, their genetic defects and psychic powers were ventured to be the product of warp storms during their geneseed's cultivation, and only arose some years into the crusade. So far as the World Eaters go, surely the point made in After Desh'ea (in which Angron kills the Chapter Master and a number of their Captains) is that, with the exception of Khârn, they were not bloodthirsty maniacs like their Primarch.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:The way I see it is the Emp did plan out certain roles for his Primarchs, but perhaps not in the way we see them. There is no doubt though that the worlds they landed on shaped them into what they are and perhaps in some cases deviated from the path the Big E saw for them.

in short
Legions made for specific roles, Primarchs altered slightly from their roles due to planets.

The problem is that there is no positive evidence whatsoever for this, and to presume it would require credulity-stretching coincidence (or a really cheap 'just as planned') for the Primarchs to have fortuitously landed on worlds on which they would develop to suit some supposed plan.

The thousand sons psychic potential was because of their homeworld. Even regular humans there were more prone in "Thousand Sons"


What do you mean "no credulity"... It's said the primarchs were made with a purpose and then The Chaos daemon tells Argal Tal and later Horus, that the Primarchs were scattered to ruin this plan AND that certain planets were intentional chosen by the Chaos Gods. So I'd say the theory is spot on just not specific enough in that they changed from their specific purposes due to chaos's intervention

It's in character speculation maybe but easily the best theory we have to go on. Which are the kinds of things we base our entire lives on.

I'm guessing the Legion the got purged did something similar to Huron and his Corsairs in modern 40K. Maybe even to the extent that they broke the "no gods, no cults" Imperial dogma, maybe by venerating their Primarch as some sort of god. Hell, maybe they even went so far as to deny the Emperor as Lord of the Imperium, following their Primarch as the one true Imperial savior, or something. Maybe mix that up with some sort of genocidal campaign by the Primarch and company that had to be stopped?

It was obviously something that threatened the Emperor's rule, as I would think that it would take something of that caliber to be such a "Big Deal" in the pre-heresy era. Especially when you have to consider that it had to be worse than the other legions did in the Crusades, when even those things did not get them taken down by the Emperor, until the Magnus fiasco.

 stormotron wrote:


The book really sheds a lot of light as well on other details.

At one part, it is said that one of the Primarchs had done something so terrible that the Gal Vorbak contemplate killing him in his gestation tube during the time travel vision to prevent the attrocity.

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

What could they have done then?

- Kill a brother primarch? Fulgrim kills Manus but he is still on record.
- Developed Psychic/Sorcerous powers against the Emperors commands? Magnus just got a slap on the wrist initially and even after he royally fethed up, Propsero burning was Horus deceiving Russ
- Rebelled? Think we know the answer there already
- Became a weird mutated thing? Sanguinius has wings, Magnus is a one eyed red skinned thing
- Been psychotic? Angron and Curze
- Had a secrete twin/love child? Alpharius and Omegon
- turned their legion into mutant monsters? Corax, Sanguinius (kind of)
- be a crazed religious fanatic totally contri to the Emperors will? Lorgar


For the OP GK and DW were created after all the shenanigans of Crusade/Heresy.

TheWanderer wrote:

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

Most of the Imperium likely knows nothing about Horus and co. For the higher ups however having records of the archenemy of the Imperium is quite important. Removing all records of something still around and trying to kill you isn't the wisest move. The two unknown legions on the other hand? Probably entirely wiped out so records aren't necessary.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

Most of the Imperium likely knows nothing about Horus and co. For the higher ups however having records of the archenemy of the Imperium is quite important. Removing all records of something still around and trying to kill you isn't the wisest move. The two unknown legions on the other hand? Probably entirely wiped out so records aren't necessary.

Judging by the contents of Space Wolf Omnibus, and similar books, Horus is talked about in a similar manner to how the Devil is talked about in many Christian circles. ie he's the Archenemy, Great Deceiver, Father of all Heresy, Murderer of Babies, Eater of Intestines, generic bad deity title, etc. etc.

Yea how much people know about the heresy in general and about Horus has never been portrayed consistently

Thesanguinesword wrote:
The blood ravens are also noted as being one of the possible missing legions but this is in fact not true.

True

Thesanguinesword wrote:
Their primarch is rogal dorn.

False. It's long been known that their primarch was Magnus. The magpies are surviving loyalist Thousand Sons.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Yea how much people know about the heresy in general and about Horus has never been portrayed consistently

True, I always recall in original fluff (ok it was prob not original original but original to when I started!) that Chaos itself was largely not know about in any form and all of the conglomerate of chaos et al as denied by the authorities of the Imperium and hushed up, even to the degree that whole armies of the Imperial guard would be killed for having been involved in fighting with Chaos and Marines were not used against them wherever possible because they were to valuable to kill off and mind wiping didn't work well.

A lot has changed fluff wise!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

I find this some what of a stretch to be honest. Whatever they did was bad enough to have all records of them destroyed, primarchs vow never to speak of them and so on and so on. buuuut rebelling against the Emperor, turning to Chaos and nearly killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium was NOT enough to get Horus et al purged from imperial record?

Most of the Imperium likely knows nothing about Horus and co. For the higher ups however having records of the archenemy of the Imperium is quite important. Removing all records of something still around and trying to kill you isn't the wisest move. The two unknown legions on the other hand? Probably entirely wiped out so records aren't necessary.

A lot of the "bad" stuff the primarchs did was before the Heresy and yet they didn't get their records wiped and they themselves put down. Why would these other two?

More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

Wow, a good way to move 40k into the next phase without completely ruining the lore... then again, knowing GW, they'll completely botch the attempt with terrible writing and rules that are twice as bad as they are now :(

 dusara217 wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

Wow, a good way to move 40k into the next phase without completely ruining the lore... then again, knowing GW, they'll completely botch the attempt with terrible writing and rules that are twice as bad as they are now :(

too be honest the emperor coming back and a new great crusade starting would very much echo Sigmar returning and starting a crusade to retake the mortal realms wouldn't it?

Yes but with less plot holes. I'm still trying to figure out how dryads work in AoS, since the (old) lord said they couldn't survive outside of Athel Loren for more than a few hours.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Yea how much people know about the heresy in general and about Horus has never been portrayed consistently

I know in one of the Assassin books, one assassin oversees a cult leader talking about the Emperor's 18 sons, and thinks "What idiots, everyone knows the Emperor only has 9 sons."

TheWanderer wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
More guardsmen have died to cover up the Inquisition then Chaos.

,


I was thinking, an interesting "ending" to 40k would be the primarchs returning, the emperor being resurected but the Astronomicon failing. The Imperium would be shattered, but the Primarchs would embark on a new great crusade to rebuild it.


But GW will probably have everyone move to the Webway cause the Galaxy explodes. THanks, Age Of Sigmar!

Wow, a good way to move 40k into the next phase without completely ruining the lore... then again, knowing GW, they'll completely botch the attempt with terrible writing and rules that are twice as bad as they are now :(

too be honest the emperor coming back and a new great crusade starting would very much echo Sigmar returning and starting a crusade to retake the mortal realms wouldn't it?

Except that, if handled correctly (preposterous as the idea may seem), it could, potentially, spawn a variety of new factions, and add depth to others. For instance, if I were to have a hand in it, it would be just the Astronomican failing, Emps is born into Immaterium as new God of Order, queue Codex: Angels of Fire (as seen in Talon of Horus), with Sanguinius and other dead Primarchs acting as his Greater Daemons/Daemon Princes, some live Primarchs guided back into Reality by Emps, 13th Black Crusade hits like a ton of bricks, Cadia falls (make a AM supplement called Cadians, Cadians become mostly the people from Cadia's colonies, with legit Cadians being special characters and Elite survivors), glorious campaigns about Primarchs duking it out in the 41st Millenium, Great WAAAGGHHH!!! starts gaining even more momentum, perhaps Khan ends up in a life-or-death struggle to stop the final summoning of G'mork. Dark Angels have a huge schism as Lion becomes disgusted at what they have become. Russ returns and leads his people against Magnus (of course), Vulkan seeks the destruction of the Inquisition (wasting billions of lives, and all), Dorne orchestrates the Imperial defense against the Black Legion, facing Perturabo once more. So many glorious stories that could be told.

Tand Corax!?