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No, see, this what happen every time. Every time, without fail. And I'm thinking, why bother fighting it? Why argue with people about something GW isn't going to fix? If a codex comes out and it completely balanced, then nothing wrong with that. But If it isn't, no one playing it is going to admit it is. And when the next one comes out, they're not going to care how powerful their personal codex is, they just want to attack what the other guy has. It' a endless cycle. Maybe for the best, we should just drone out all the complaints, and play how we want to. And if someone else gets an unfair advantage? It'll eventually come back to you.

Hyd wrote:

speedo wrote:there's usually some measure of merit in a common sentiment because people aren't sheep.

Well, this is certainly too optimistic a view for me.

Hyd wrote:It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to state that the burden of the proof lies on the speaker. And yet, I have yet to hear actually thought-out and sensible opinions about the matter. This thread is an example. In fact, posts that boil down to "QQ" just undermine their stance. We have a few examples here. There seems to be bitterness and internet rage where I'm expecting food for thought. That's just not constructive. I'm not all that interested in a discussion where I'm providing the thinking for both sides. (Note that I'm not including you in that.)

I'm fairly sure you and I are aiming for the same thing. I'm interested in what conclusions others could draw based on factual evidence. Something like this:

For 10 points more than a vanilla tactical squad's base cost, you can buy a strike squad of the same size that gains storm bolters, nemesis force swords, psyk-out grenades, The Aegis, Deep Strike, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Hammerhand and Warp Quake. Codex: Space Marines prices a single storm bolter at 10 points. That's ridiculous

Otherwise, you pretty much summed up the other points I would have made

You really can't feel bad for tac marines. If you really want someone to feel bad for take up the banner for csm. Those dudes are waaay overcosted compared to many 5th edition codexes.

Not gonna lie, getting $45 for first place every month at a local tourney makes the army pay for itself. The book is quite plainly broken and overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luke_Prowler wrote:No, see, this what happen every time. Every time, without fail. And I'm thinking, why bother fighting it? Why argue with people about something GW isn't going to fix? If a codex comes out and it completely balanced, then nothing wrong with that. But If it isn't, no one playing it is going to admit it is. And when the next one comes out, they're not going to care how powerful their personal codex is, they just want to attack what the other guy has. It' a endless cycle. Maybe for the best, we should just drone out all the complaints, and play how we want to. And if someone else gets an unfair advantage? It'll eventually come back to you.

I don't know about others, maybe they are that shallow, but I have a single 1850 list for GK, not a model more or less. I play the army because they are undoubtedly overpowered and it will win against any other army more often that not with average lists. But in addition to playing GK I also spam the best units possible. But I don't try to deny that my codex is overpowered.

My first 6 games with my GK list, 3 of them the day after I built the models, were in local tournies. I won all 6 of said games and in each lost no more than 20-40% of my army each game. I came first in both of the tournies. If that is not the sign of overpowered I don't know what is, so after that moment I just accepted it.

Well I assume you did your research and had a plan on tactics and such

I really just view GKs as being an indicator codex. And indicator of the new and upcoming 6th Edition rules and codices. once everything is updated and the new rules come out the GKs will sink down to a reasonable power level.

zeekill wrote:Not gonna lie, getting $45 for first place every month at a local tourney makes the army pay for itself. The book is quite plainly broken and overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luke_Prowler wrote:No, see, this what happen every time. Every time, without fail. And I'm thinking, why bother fighting it? Why argue with people about something GW isn't going to fix? If a codex comes out and it completely balanced, then nothing wrong with that. But If it isn't, no one playing it is going to admit it is. And when the next one comes out, they're not going to care how powerful their personal codex is, they just want to attack what the other guy has. It' a endless cycle. Maybe for the best, we should just drone out all the complaints, and play how we want to. And if someone else gets an unfair advantage? It'll eventually come back to you.

I don't know about others, maybe they are that shallow, but I have a single 1850 list for GK, not a model more or less. I play the army because they are undoubtedly overpowered and it will win against any other army more often that not with average lists. But in addition to playing GK I also spam the best units possible. But I don't try to deny that my codex is overpowered.

My first 6 games with my GK list, 3 of them the day after I built the models, were in local tournies. I won all 6 of said games and in each lost no more than 20-40% of my army each game. I came first in both of the tournies. If that is not the sign of overpowered I don't know what is, so after that moment I just accepted it.

Well it's nice to someone who's humble enough to admit that (or perhaps you're really good and selling yourself short, which is a possibly)

Now, I've tried, to prove my position that Grey Knights are OP quite a few times with facts and well written arguments and all that. but I've found that it would have been better time trying to part the red sea because the people who you want to convince the most aren't listening, and when you get called a "whiner" or "a sore loser" in response it really just shows the futility of the whole thing.

Grey Templar wrote:I really just view GKs as being an indicator codex. And indicator of the new and upcoming 6th Edition rules and codices. once everything is updated and the new rules come out the GKs will sink down to a reasonable power level.

Based off of the leaked edition, I don't think GK will be weaker so much as other armies will get a buff (while leaving others behind)

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Now, I've tried, to prove my position that Grey Knights are OP quite a few times with facts and well written arguments and all that. but I've found that it would have been better time trying to part the red sea because the people who you want to convince the most aren't listening, and when you get called a "whiner" or "a sore loser" in response it really just shows the futility of the whole thing.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Oh, let the grey knight players have their 15 minutes of fame. I'm sure they'll be whining just as loud once the 6th edition space marines/orks/eldar/whatever comes out, and all their stupid argument will get thrown right back in their faces.

Oh hypocrisy, thy name is Luke...

There are a lot of grey knight players because the internets says they are the best, so new players flock to them. It's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Grey Templar wrote:Well I assume you did your research and had a plan on tactics and such

I really just view GKs as being an indicator codex. And indicator of the new and upcoming 6th Edition rules and codices. once everything is updated and the new rules come out the GKs will sink down to a reasonable power level.

There's probably a good deal of truth to this. The WHFB Demons codex (also by Matt Ward) was (I hear) unstoppable before the edition change over, after which it became a bit more reasonable. Presumably we can expect something like that with GK and 6th ed 40k.

Because the Grey Knight Codex is the most diverse, open and inclusive 40K Codex yet released. It significantly lowered the "entry barrier" to the Hobby, allowing players to start playing with (for GW standards) comparatively few models and little budget with things like a Paladin army. On the other end of the spectrum, the customability and hobby-potential of a henchmen-army for a dedicated hobbyist dwarfs just about anything and everything that ever existed for 40K. The book offers some of the most diverse play-styles in 40K ever seen in a single book, ranging from small-modelcount foot-armies to mechanized to full-deepstriking to various builds relying on more exotic tricks and equipment. Grey Knights simply attract so many players because it just offers so exponentially far more than any "regular" Codex ever dared to achieve. It's simply far and away the best army list GW has released in the last 20 years or so. Why wouldn't people love it?

@Walrus: That was a prediction, not actually an insult. Totally different

Zweischneid wrote:Because the Grey Knight Codex is the most diverse, open and inclusive 40K Codex yet released. It significantly lowered the "entry barrier" to the Hobby, allowing players to start playing with (for GW standards) comparatively few models and little budget with things like a Paladin army. On the other end of the spectrum, the customability and hobby-potential of a henchmen-army for a dedicated hobbyist dwarfs just about anything and everything that ever existed for 40K. The book offers some of the most diverse play-styles in 40K ever seen in a single book, ranging from small-modelcount foot-armies to mechanized to full-deepstriking to various builds relying on more exotic tricks and equipment. Grey Knights simply attract so many players because it just offers so exponentially far more than any "regular" Codex ever dared to achieve. It's simply far and away the best army list GW has released in the last 20 years or so. Why wouldn't people love it?

what is this? you sound like a cheesy commercial. do you work for GW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zeekill wrote:Not gonna lie, getting $45 for first place every month at a local tourney makes the army pay for itself. The book is quite plainly broken and overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luke_Prowler wrote:No, see, this what happen every time. Every time, without fail. And I'm thinking, why bother fighting it? Why argue with people about something GW isn't going to fix? If a codex comes out and it completely balanced, then nothing wrong with that. But If it isn't, no one playing it is going to admit it is. And when the next one comes out, they're not going to care how powerful their personal codex is, they just want to attack what the other guy has. It' a endless cycle. Maybe for the best, we should just drone out all the complaints, and play how we want to. And if someone else gets an unfair advantage? It'll eventually come back to you.

I don't know about others, maybe they are that shallow, but I have a single 1850 list for GK, not a model more or less. I play the army because they are undoubtedly overpowered and it will win against any other army more often that not with average lists. But in addition to playing GK I also spam the best units possible. But I don't try to deny that my codex is overpowered.

My first 6 games with my GK list, 3 of them the day after I built the models, were in local tournies. I won all 6 of said games and in each lost no more than 20-40% of my army each game. I came first in both of the tournies. If that is not the sign of overpowered I don't know what is, so after that moment I just accepted it.

ahhh. a breath of fresh air. atleast someone admits it.

GreatGunz wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Well I assume you did your research and had a plan on tactics and such

I really just view GKs as being an indicator codex. And indicator of the new and upcoming 6th Edition rules and codices. once everything is updated and the new rules come out the GKs will sink down to a reasonable power level.

There's probably a good deal of truth to this. The WHFB Demons codex (also by Matt Ward) was (I hear) unstoppable before the edition change over, after which it became a bit more reasonable. Presumably we can expect something like that with GK and 6th ed 40k.

Nope, 7th ed Daemons were unbeatable outside of insanely bad dice with the right list. 'Thirsters who could chop-up half a unit, power dice generating abilities that made dark elves jealous, spamable spells that made VC's invo-spam look tame, basic units that are still undercosted, spamable 'loremaster' characters, Ld-bombing tactics, 'Fear' actually being fearsome! Flamers of Tzeentch being arguably the game's best skirmishers... The list actually goes on.
Suffice it to say, the Daemon feth-up nearly killed Fantasy as a whole for GW, and the game is still recovering even after nearly two years of 8th has tonned them way down!


As for why do I consider GK's to be OP? They're doing the same thing 7th ed Daemons did - they are 100% invalidating multiple armies and either making the game near-unwinnable, or else forcing a semi-tailored to fully tailored list for those armies to compete against them.
- Tyranids lose hardcore to an army of pointy death sticks, spamable S7 rending guns and 'winning flame'. One of the GK's top builds is Purifyer spam. Add in the borken grenades vs an army that's designed primarily as an assault force and you've got bad times for 'nid players.

- Orks share many of the same problem 'nid do. Purifyer spam pretty much invalidates 'the green tide' unless it sits back and just goes dakka-heavy. The kanwall is undone by super cheap psyflemen which are rediculously undercosted in an army that already has easy and/or spamable access to S7 rending, multi-meltas, lascannons and meltaguns.

- Daemons are just useless vs GK's. 1 single 10 man squad, fully spaced out using the 2" coherency creates a 24"x44" bubble of auto-mishap. Thus, in order to account for scatter as well, the Daemon player is forced to deploy 7" back from the edge of that bubble. So for only 200pts a GK play can deny 33"x53" area of the table to an entire army that has no other means of deploying!
If a GK player castles in a corner and then uses that 10 man squad to force the Daemon player back, it's not even a game as the Daemon player is forced to walk at least 24" into the waiting gunline.
Worst of all, an unscrupulous GK player can juggle 'misplaced' resultes in order to get a 50/50 shot at auto-killing your unit.

Then add all the other anti-daemon shinanigans into the mix... Sure, that's balanced.


In my opinion, when a codex goes to the point that an entire army is pretty much invalidated, (let alone multiple armies needing almost 100% re-thinks to their list), the codex in question is OP.

And don't say, 'well Daemons suck so it is not the GK fault but rather your book just being trashy fecal matter!' because honestly, I can be competitive against every other army in the game! GK's are an entirely different animal though, and even at the best of times, it's a huge uphill battle just to try and compete with the GK's filth.

I don't have a GK army but it's easy to see why it's popular

Cheap, strong, low number of minis and easy to paint.

New to the thread guys, however I have noticed a large influx of Grey Knight players @ my store as well and honestly it is because of how ridiculously good this Book is. It is also because of army books like this is why I have refused to get back into the game of 40k or as I like to call it now "marine-hammer" for quite some time now. Some of these lists/armies have gotten so bad that a friend of mine had to sell his Grey Knight army because no one would play him, I also have another friend who plays Grey Knights facing a similar problem (just started today with a kid saying no to playing against his army) and he now is thinking of getting a new one because he feels bad playing them. Hopefully GW will learn their mistake and tone down the next marine book to come out (aka by not letting Matt Ward write the new one!), this isnt meant to start a flame thread war just placing my opinion

I own Grey Knights due to me loving the models. I originally started Warhammer with Fantasy, and ended up going with Dwarfs out of the BfSP set. My girlfriend went with Chaos. This left me with, quite honestly, no army to really capture the feeling of armoured warriors charging into battle. I hate Empire's and Bretonnia's aesthetics, so that had them left out.

When I started 40k I was originally going to do a Daemonhunter Army, due to me loving the old GK models. Sadly, my FLGS wouldn't order any in so I settled with Necrons, then Chaos, then the new Dark Eldar. Dark Eldar for, to be honest, the same reasons as a Daemonhunter. He just wouldn't order any in. One week I went up to Calgary, actually the day of the GK release, to buy more Dark Elder models. Both the GW I visited and The Sentry Box were out of Dark Eldar, and I saw these new marines. I immediately fell in love with the aesthetics. Finally, an army where I could have armoured warriors charging into battle... albeit 40k. The halberds swiftly became a staple in what I own, due to my love for pole arms. Not to mention I did manage to get quite a few of the old models as well, so my nostalgia was restored!

Now, I'll admit to painting a standard scheme for my Grey Knights, however it has taught me much in the way of detailing and layering, and I hope to finish them by sometimes in the next few months. The fluff is, okay? Much prefer the Dark Eldar fluff to be honest.

As for the power... I tend to win 40k games no matter what army I play, Grey Knights just tend to let me win a little easier. My friends can't seem to do as well with GK as I do, so I'm not sure what that means.

Long story short - Love the models, the aesthetics, the feel. Could give a rats ass about power, because they're fun to play with.

I play grey knights because I saw a bloke knock together an army list for alpha legion using them, with coteaz and henchmen mostly. I'll have him alongside indoctrinated guardsmen (kitted out warriors), indoctrinated mechanicus (jok and servitors) and stuff like that. I added in Omegon and a bodyguard of legionnaires (GM and some pallies...I can't find them using terminator armour, but I'm still thinking of finding models I can use as paladins while not looking so bulky...it's a purely for fun list for friendly play). The list is not really the best....at all....but its fun, and when it is painted its going to be so purty...and alpha-legion-y. More-so than my initial idea of using a scout heavy SM list, that thing fell through. Hard.

And I did love the old daemonhunter codex, but back then I also liked shiny things I found on the ground (I was in high school), so while I did collect them a little, and loved the army, I'm not going to claim it was nostalgia for them which dragged me back. It was legion (and now deliverance lost too), chapter approved and a random army list that I saw someone post on dakka....ahhh....

theyre called demonhunters for a reason, demons are supposed to be autolose against them, read the fluff herpty derpty do (not serious)

Experiment 626 wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Well I assume you did your research and had a plan on tactics and such

I really just view GKs as being an indicator codex. And indicator of the new and upcoming 6th Edition rules and codices. once everything is updated and the new rules come out the GKs will sink down to a reasonable power level.

There's probably a good deal of truth to this. The WHFB Demons codex (also by Matt Ward) was (I hear) unstoppable before the edition change over, after which it became a bit more reasonable. Presumably we can expect something like that with GK and 6th ed 40k.

Nope, 7th ed Daemons were unbeatable outside of insanely bad dice with the right list. 'Thirsters who could chop-up half a unit, power dice generating abilities that made dark elves jealous, spamable spells that made VC's invo-spam look tame, basic units that are still undercosted, spamable 'loremaster' characters, Ld-bombing tactics, 'Fear' actually being fearsome! Flamers of Tzeentch being arguably the game's best skirmishers... The list actually goes on.
Suffice it to say, the Daemon feth-up nearly killed Fantasy as a whole for GW, and the game is still recovering even after nearly two years of 8th has tonned them way down!


As for why do I consider GK's to be OP? They're doing the same thing 7th ed Daemons did - they are 100% invalidating multiple armies and either making the game near-unwinnable, or else forcing a semi-tailored to fully tailored list for those armies to compete against them.
- Tyranids lose hardcore to an army of pointy death sticks, spamable S7 rending guns and 'winning flame'. One of the GK's top builds is Purifyer spam. Add in the borken grenades vs an army that's designed primarily as an assault force and you've got bad times for 'nid players.

- Orks share many of the same problem 'nid do. Purifyer spam pretty much invalidates 'the green tide' unless it sits back and just goes dakka-heavy. The kanwall is undone by super cheap psyflemen which are rediculously undercosted in an army that already has easy and/or spamable access to S7 rending, multi-meltas, lascannons and meltaguns.

- Daemons are just useless vs GK's. 1 single 10 man squad, fully spaced out using the 2" coherency creates a 24"x44" bubble of auto-mishap. Thus, in order to account for scatter as well, the Daemon player is forced to deploy 7" back from the edge of that bubble. So for only 200pts a GK play can deny 33"x53" area of the table to an entire army that has no other means of deploying!
If a GK player castles in a corner and then uses that 10 man squad to force the Daemon player back, it's not even a game as the Daemon player is forced to walk at least 24" into the waiting gunline.
Worst of all, an unscrupulous GK player can juggle 'misplaced' resultes in order to get a 50/50 shot at auto-killing your unit.

Then add all the other anti-daemon shinanigans into the mix... Sure, that's balanced.


In my opinion, when a codex goes to the point that an entire army is pretty much invalidated, (let alone multiple armies needing almost 100% re-thinks to their list), the codex in question is OP.

And don't say, 'well Daemons suck so it is not the GK fault but rather your book just being trashy fecal matter!' because honestly, I can be competitive against every other army in the game! GK's are an entirely different animal though, and even at the best of times, it's a huge uphill battle just to try and compete with the GK's filth.

Got to admit, love grey knights, was going to do them as a second army but my friend chose them first and we had a pact not to pick the same army...so I went with space marines.
Weird as I started out with a horde army on a budget...guard.

I love Grey Kngihts.

But not so many players here is Serbia, only one or two.

Cheap relative real cost and competitive leads to bandwagoning.

Space Wolves are also competitive but they will require a little more dollar investment.

400$ to get 2000 pt competitive GK versus 600$ or more to get another competitive list means GK wins.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I love Grey Kngihts.

But not so many players here is Serbia, only one or two.

Shame, any war gaming clubs over there?

Arise, dead thread! ARISE!

This thread was 7 mos dead (thankfully). Lets keep it that way, shall we?

~Vryce

 MilkyDamBusters wrote:


Shame, any war gaming clubs over there?

We had three until the beginning of this year. One close, one was moved to bigger location and changed name while third remained ( but they mostly play card games there, not TT ).
But all n all it's good enough even if we have only one TT club in the entire country.

This thread is 6 months old, and certainly no mystery.