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 pretre wrote:

Except you want them to shoot at Celestine while crossing open ground. Time she's off the board is time she isn't absorbing shots and dying.

True. I suppose it comes down to what you want Celestine to do. I like to use her as a "Seraphim Enhancer" and if she's bullet catching then she's either going to die leaving your Seras "unenhanced" or you're going to lose a lot of Seras trying to keep her alive. Both units need each other to be maximally effective. But, if her priority 1 mission is bullet catcher then yeah "never Deep Strike" makes sense. I wouldn't consider that her most important function though.

 pretre wrote:

As long as you place Celestine as the first model for deep strike, she's still on the board when she's removed as a casualty so can still get back up, btw.

Does that actually work? It seems a bit shady. That said, if you do that and your DS works, you can't use Celestine's HF and you can't use LOS! to help keep everyone alive.

Amerikon wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Except you want them to shoot at Celestine while crossing open ground. Time she's off the board is time she isn't absorbing shots and dying.

True. I suppose it comes down to what you want Celestine to do. I like to use her as a "Seraphim Enhancer" and if she's bullet catching then she's either going to die leaving your Seras "unenhanced" or you're going to lose a lot of Seras trying to keep her alive. Both units need each other to be maximally effective. But, if her priority 1 mission is bullet catcher then yeah "never Deep Strike" makes sense. I wouldn't consider that her most important function though.

They are not mutually exclusive. Keep in mind that if Celestine falls, she gets back up and she can absorb a lot of fire from the Seraphim. If they start shooting Str 6+ at her, start laughing because those are shots that aren't going into your mech.

 pretre wrote:

As long as you place Celestine as the first model for deep strike, she's still on the board when she's removed as a casualty so can still get back up, btw.

Does that actually work? It seems a bit shady. That said, if you do that and your DS works, you can't use Celestine's HF and you can't use LOS! to help keep everyone alive.

Another reason not to deep strike.

 Shandara wrote:
I agree that deep-striking is bad. Half the time you have night-fight anyway and so can advance in turn 1 in relative safety (behind cover with Stealth/Shrouded). Gambling on a turn 2 no-scatter deepstrike is just asking to get shafted.

If you expect a turn 2 no-scatter result when you Deep Strike something you're setting yourself up for failure. Also, the likelihood that you'll mishap is pretty low if you pick a good landing spot.

Let's play with numbers:
You've got a 1/3 chance of hitting outright. (So 2/3 of your DSs scatter.)
Unless you're desperate, place your unit somewhere such that most of the possible scatter directions will not result in a mishap. (< 50% of scatter directions are "bad".)
We can premeasure now, so if you put your unit 7+" away from the target unit, even scattering towards them will cause a mishap less than half the time. (5/12 of the possible 2d6 results are > 7)

So even a risky strike with 50% bad scatter directions will result in a mishap (2/3 * 1/2 * 5/12) or about 14% of the time. Of those mishaps, half of them will put your unit back into reserves to DS again next turn. So one in every 20 Deep Strikes will result in a "opponent's choice" and one in every 40 will cause your unit to be destroyed.

0 out of every 0 on board deployments result in mishap.

 pretre wrote:
10 Doms with 4 flamers and a combi-flamer rip everything apart. I also ran 2 melta/2 flamer/Combi-flamer and that was a nice squad (in 5th).

I was poo poo'd roundly at one point long ago on this thread for recommending full on Dominions squads, but I can assure you, full squads are worth worth worth it. I am in full agreement with Pretre. They're quite good. And Heldrakes like them because they are crunchy in milk and are a bit sweeter than Marines.

=). Oh Heldrake, what have they DONE!

I am not a fan of full doms, but if you are going to use them, use them like that.

I think I poo poo'd them because of negative experiences.

I dont honestly recall who said what. All I can say for sure is, they have done nothing but perform.

The added padding allows them to REALLY impose damage on the enemy and from a source that isn't scoring from a direction they cant really devote enough energy or else they are ALL the enemy can spend energy on which is kind of fine also, depending on the mission (I covered that before).

The root of my satisfaction ith them comes from the fact that they DONT lose combats by large margins. So while they are no Herculese, whatever they hit isn't strong enough to overpower 10 of them like would be the case otherwise. And that makes the enemy have to retreat one unit and bring a second unit in IF they want a shot at it. but the geometry maty make that such a 50/50% proposition that they may well just shoot rather than assault and for the price, the Sisters take shooting well. Even a couple survivors promises trouble for the opponent so they really NEED to finish that unit, so they just take a LOT more attention than if only two or three units of shooting were necessary. The Shield of Faith is an X Factor too.

I REALLy want to see Sisters of Battle pown some face this tournament season. I think we need a fresh thread for reporting tourney victories (or records?) to increase awareness of how cool they are. A winning percentage would do more for us than seeing if a Sisters of Battle PLayer ends in the top 5. So much goes into the scoring that has nothing to do with wins.

aaaanyways, 10 Dominions = yay.

Can Rending threaten light vehicles? Say a rhino?

Rending adds +d3 to your strength so even a bolter could pen a rhino with rending.

As for deepstriking Celestine its a matter of preference and what you're fighting.

If Im fighting marines, i'll run her up. She's likely to meet them up midfield and they don't have weight of fire to seriously harm her and the seraphims.

Fight imperial guards with autocannons, eldars with lots of warwalkers or even orcs with lots of lootas and shoota boys.. I'm deep striking.

She and her crew won't last against the weight of fire coming at them. You're also playing your opponents game. He knows you're moving her up and he will take her down. If she deep strikes, he has to keep planning for her and that gets him playing your game.

While there's a risk she might not come in early, that's not always bad. It gives time for the person that you are playing against to reveal their cards. If they're focusing on an objective and leaving something weaker guarding another objective, you might decide to drop in a much better position than you would have two turns earlier. It's also a fairly easy Line Breaker point if you need it as well.

Scattering is always a risk, but it's still worth it I say. Maybe she might not get to shoot that turn due to a bad landing and she will be shot that... if they had been running up, thats also basically what would have likely happened for two turns straight before she engaged anything.

I honestly am least scared about my Sisters fighting with helldrakes. Of all the MEQ units out there, we are easily the best equipped to deal with them (without psychic powers or wargear) due to our global 6++. Given they wound our T3 as easily as a marine's T4... that invul save can be clutch.

I've also only ever DS'd Celestine once, against Tau. Results were mediocre, showed up weathered one turn of fire instead of 3 and roasted a ton of space-fish. Only problem was I am great at rolling for reserves and they showed up promptly on turn 4.


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Alright... subtle tweaks to get a unit of Seraphim in there (and because I think 2 melta-squads are overkill)




Alternatively I could turn both BSS MMs into heavy bolters and give the 10 strong dominion squad a combi-plasma (I wouldn't do melta as I don't think I should ever be shooting them at a tank given they have 4 flamers and plasma gives them 2 shots to try and kill any pesky 2+ saves up front)... but I think I like where I have ended up. Exorcists, melta gals, and MM Immolator pop open whatever transports there are (or the MM immo goes bastion/manticore hunting) so that the flamer doms and the DK can roast stuff turn 1. Seraphim follow quickly behind, and the GKSS is right there to clean-up whatever is left. BSS hang back to hold objectives and initially bubble-wrap the Exorcists to give them 5+ cover as the ladies advance to midfield (if the Exos even need it). After the Dom's rhino has dropped them off... on the off-chance it lives it can either tank shock to clump things up for the Doms, or scoot back and pick-up one of the BSS squads.

Thoughts? I cannot wait to get a game in this Sunday

 pretre wrote:
0 out of every 0 on board deployments result in mishap.

Fair enough, and if you never leave your house you've got a 0 chance of being hit by a bus, right?

Amerikon wrote:

 pretre wrote:
0 out of every 0 on board deployments result in mishap.

Fair enough, and if you never leave your house you've got a 0 chance of being hit by a bus, right?

Exactly!


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Voldrak wrote:
Fight imperial guards with autocannons, eldars with lots of warwalkers or even orcs with lots of lootas and shoota boys.. I'm deep striking.

This is exactly the time you want her on the board. With her 2+ and the girl's 3+, you love all those weak AP shots coming at you. They aren't going at your vehicles.


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@quiestdeus: What was the points level because that looks nasty...

 pretre wrote:

@quiestdeus: What was the points level because that looks nasty...

Heh, I agree -- point value is 1850. Going to give it a whirl for a couple of battles and see what it does. The only thing I am a little worried about is a DE beast pack deathstar as I'm not sure 4 TL flamers will do enough damage, but I suppose time will tell!

I just recently took on the DE Beast Pack Deathstar with my list and no the flamers arent enough. You have to do 5 wounds to even kill one and they can run 50+ wounds.

Best bet is any Str 6 you can unload into them.

I just Tarpitted them with an IG squad lead by St. Celestine

They real key for beating DE is to take out all their fast vehicles. For that i would favor Heavy Bolters over the Meltas or Flamers on your Dominion squads,

Yeah, Exorcists LOVE to shoot at venoms, raiders, and ravagers. I totally forgot about the DK's incinerator... so with a solid shunt I should be able to fry quite a few razorwing flocks

Yeah Exorcists played a big role in my battle.

I didnt get a chance to shoot them at the Beast Pack though.

But they were invaluable in taking out the DE Raiders as well as Killing off their MC Tallos or w/e.

I packed so many RL/LC/Exorcist shots that his raiders didnt stand a chance. Turn 2 they were all gone and he didnt even shoot a lance off.

Just DONT charge his beast pack with your DK ... its suicide. They will hit first and hit hard ... at least 6 rends and a dozen wounds ...

I think GKs complement the SoB very well ... but they dont compare to the IG ....

Although it's a risky to take desperate allies I'm take sisters of battle as allies for my eldar troops.( because what else am i gonna use? My chaos daemons? HAH)

So i got

Avatar

x5 DA
Wave serpent
Starcannon

x5 DA
Wave serpent
Starcannon

x5 DA
Wave serpent
Starcannon

x5 DA
Wave serpent
Starcannon

Wraithlord
Sword
Starcannon

Allies

Saint Celestine

x10 SOB
x2 melta
Rhino


x10 SOB
x2 melta
Rhino

All right first the biggest problem, the sisters of battle are not scoring(desperate allies) and i need to keep them at least 6" away so i don't incur one eye open, so i treat them like a wraithlord without a farseer but I want them farther away.

Since my main army is mostly troops im not lacking in scoring units, my wraithlord and Avatar can handle high AV values my plethora of starcannons will reap through MEQ's and if necessary i can deploy DA for some shooting but i want this kept at a minimum. The wave serpents will mostly dance behind or around or provide screening for the MC's.

This is where the sisters come in, because of their DA status they are completely expendable, they have more of what i need, mobility, lots of anti GEQ shooting(compared to what my DA provide and their status as scoring discourages me from using them for such use much), they have anti MEQ weaponry and can tear up nasty vehicles. Saint Celestine does what she does best at tying things up and generally being awesome, and since I want them to be at least 6" away from the eldar im encourage to use them in another area that I can't get to or don't want to engage with my eldar since they are the softer targets.

If i get into any assaults i dont want to I'm pretty much dead unless the wraithlord, avatar or celestine are near by to save me. Also im taking a gamble on the wraithlord by not bringing a farseer.

There might be better choices than sisters of battle but I am using what is available to me.

I would even use them the other way around and bring in the avatar a wraithlord and 2 wave serpents with DA as allies with a sister army using celestine, x3 sister squads, 3 exorcists and whatever is leftover with dominions.

It isn't exactly expected but I can't rely on that completely to carry the day but it gives sisters even more anti MEQ although i am paying a premium for it since starcannons are expensive it gives a little more oomph where it needs to be on squads targetted by sister squad bolters and melta guns I can clean up from 36" inches.

I have a lot of fun with it, wondering if any else (if you have the models for it) would ever try out a very unlikely alliance for sisters.

I've heard very good things about SOB/gk but it isn't the oddest coupling. and probably performs more reliably than SOB/eldar

I didn't mean to be overly negative here, but from a competitive standpoint, that is a pretty soft list.
- Your anti-tank is limited to the meltas in the Sisters squads and is 12".
- Your anti-horde is DA, who are only 5 guys each and have too few shots to do anything, not to mention they will die after they fire since there are only 5 and not a lot of targets.
- You have an Avatar, but no foot troops for Eldar.
- You have starcannons, which have been pretty horrible since 3rd edition.
- You took Celestine (good) and then two SOB squads (bad) as allies. The only thing they are good for is holding objectives, which you can't do in this list. If taking sister allies at least get one sob and then take dominions or Rets or something for your second. They are better in every way.
- Your scoring is in vehicles which are pretty fragile and is only 20 guys, most of which will die when their transports explode.

If you fight a jump pack list or foot MEQ, you might do okay. Against anything else, you will get ripped apart. Most opponents will just shoot down your wave serpents, ignore your sisters and call it a day.

Alrighty! I did not take any photos, but played a practice NOVA game this weekend (4 objectives, one in each corner, modified hammer and anvil deployment). My opponent was playing pure DA, had Azrael, a libby, a 5 man DW unit, a 10 man DW unit, a tac squad, 3 bikes with melta, a MM attack bike, a ravenwing knight squad, and a dark shroud.

He took a huge risk and decided to try and outflank the bikes (Ravenwing, Knights, and Attack bike) rather than scout toward me and DWA the large terminator block. I basically used one sister squad to line the edge of my board near my deployment and deny him any sneaky outflank moves. I deployed the other sister squad wrapping the Exorcists a bit to try and give them a cover save, but really just to prevent anything from being able to get into melta range. DK and Seraphim setup center of the board, while the GKs and Coteaz setup just north of them. Coteaz ended up with Scrier's Gaze (and Prescience) so I opt'd to outflank both dominion squads since I could basically choose when and where I wanted them to appear.

He killed 4 GKs T1, but that was about it. My T1 my GKs popped warp quake (10 scary terminators!) and their returned fire killed all 5 terminators, the DK shunted and burned a couple of tac marines, and the seraphim moved up. His turn 2 was more horribleness, only his DWA and attack bike came on. His 10-strong terminator unit scatter 8 inches and landed too close to a GK ( ), auto-mishapped, and I got to place the unit in a no-man's land taking them out of the rest of the game ( ). His bike made a suicide run on an exorcist but only managed to glance. Azrael and the Libby (started with the unit of 5 terminators) ended up joining the tac squad, and the entire unit's shooting put one wound on the DK. Bottom of turn 2, I pop scrier's gaze, get both units of dominions on the board... the 4 flamers right near the tac squad, and the dominions behind the attack bike. Melta dom's don't even disembark, and the immolator pops the bike. This unit then tries to take pot-shots and bait the 10-man terminators away from an objective the rest of the game before finally contesting it, so I'll ignore it here on out. The flamer doms disembark, pass their faith check and put 25 wounds on the tac squad. Turns out Azrael is closest... and my opponent procceeds to make 22 2+ saves. I now [almost] know what it is like to shoot against a seraphim squad and have Celestine laugh it off. Yeesh The DK shoots the tac squad too, kills 1, and then assaults it.

Turn 3 the rest of his army (bike squad, Knights, darkshroud) all come on... but things are pretty much over at this point. He cannot kill my troops (he gets 1 sister squad, and leaves me with just 3 GKs) before I kill all of his reinforcements so the game is pretty much over.

Random notes:
Azrael, the librarian (with force staff), and the tactical squad basically tied up the DK the rest of the game. I severely underestimated Azrael's 4++ to the squad... only managing to kill 1 or 2 marines a turn is not fast enough, even if they were not fearless I probably would have still been stuck there for a while. I charged in with the dominions the turn after to try and speed things up and they did not help at all I believe 6 Doms were killed, they did 1 wound (which was saved) in return, and promptly broke and ran out of the combat

Sisters outside of a rhino ARE SO SQUISHY. I knew it before when I made the list, but to finally play with foot sisters and see how quickly those ladies laid down to fire from just 6 bikes... egads. Power armor isn't bad, but it is not the end-all be-all... which leads into my main concern... I really think I need another troops choice. I will play a few more games, but if my opponent had been able to kill those last 3 GKs (or the 10 strong sister squad) that game very likely would have just been a draw.

I been reading around the forums how would you guys deal with a DE/Eldrad Beast Master List?

Ah Beastmasters make me smile. I love those fellas. A lot.

Allied Manticore might do the trick. Collossus will ignore cover so you could throw one in instead. Beastmasters don't like Manticores. Cover negating large blasts are no fun either at AP 3.

It's a thought.

Celestine. Keep challenging beast masters. Iirc, beasts don't have s6.

 pretre wrote:
I didn't mean to be overly negative here, but from a competitive standpoint, that is a pretty soft list.
- Your anti-tank is limited to the meltas in the Sisters squads and is 12".
- Your anti-horde is DA, who are only 5 guys each and have too few shots to do anything, not to mention they will die after they fire since there are only 5 and not a lot of targets.
- You have an Avatar, but no foot troops for Eldar.
- You have starcannons, which have been pretty horrible since 3rd edition.
- You took Celestine (good) and then two SOB squads (bad) as allies. The only thing they are good for is holding objectives, which you can't do in this list. If taking sister allies at least get one sob and then take dominions or Rets or something for your second. They are better in every way.
- Your scoring is in vehicles which are pretty fragile and is only 20 guys, most of which will die when their transports explode.

If you fight a jump pack list or foot MEQ, you might do okay. Against anything else, you will get ripped apart. Most opponents will just shoot down your wave serpents, ignore your sisters and call it a day.

Not at all, i appreciate the criticism and feedback on it, I've only ever played in a friendly setting and never at any tournaments or stores. I play with what's available/ what i like which tends to be the same thing so I don't have the competitive experience to really know what would be required.

My Dire avengers really aren't meant to be used at all to be honest, although that in of itself is stupid to buy something and then not use it, i forget in this edition you can't control or contest objectives from inside vehicles anymore. The sister's were intended to flesh out both roles depending on what they ran across. Although I could specialize out a seperate unit with flamers for that purpose i much rather prefer meltaguns, they feel solid to me and I have not had any issues with horde armies in the past, then again they were not competitively minded.

An avatar is out of place in a mechanized list but i prefer to take him when im not running a wraith heavy army, since i only had one wraithlord i didnt want to buy a farseer just to babysit him, but I could have also bought a farseer for physic defense and fortune as well, the avatar although threatening is very slow and will probably get easily isolated from the rest of my army.

Starcannons I just love, i know they are expensive but their weapon stats make my heart race and are the only weapon I trust on the wave serpent platform, the single shot weapons are too expensive in my mind and scatter laser I absolutely detest from bad experiences against grey knight (which wasn't a good idea in the first place being GREY KNIGHTS). So my assessment on them is horrendously biased but I cannot bring myself to use the other weapons on it, if only it wasn't so expensive.... especially since im paying for a 5 man troop choice and a 90 point
vechile on top of the weapon.


Peace friend's i wont turn this into a eldar tatica,

:/ at this rate black templars will get a new codex before sisters......

Well Dervos, Do some small things to the list first.

Change one of the Sisters of Battle over to a full Dominion Squad with 4 flamers. This instantly adds an enormously useful Scout/Outflanking ability to the army, and pretty much the same models you alredy had. 5 troops is plenty. If needed you can drop the sword on the Wraithlord to do it, and possibly downgrade one weapon on a Wave Serpent..

Dominions are no joke. They make everyone cry. They might even forget about the DA for a moment while they concentrate on that. if you go first. Awesome. If you go second, outflank. Either way, its a good time.

Jancoran wrote:Ah Beastmasters make me smile. I love those fellas. A lot.

Allied Manticore might do the trick. Collossus will ignore cover so you could throw one in instead. Beastmasters don't like Manticores. Cover negating large blasts are no fun either at AP 3.

It's a thought.

I have not tried a Colossus so that definitely could help, but you would be surprised how little a manticore does when they have 2+ cover from invisibility and hugging area terrain. If the barrage rolls well and kills 3 or 4 flocks then you're all set, but if you roll poorly and kill 1 (or none) then you're in for a world of hurt.

pretre wrote:Celestine. Keep challenging beast masters. Iirc, beasts don't have s6.

Not sure your plan here pretre... they can readily throw away a beastmaster (like a guard SGT) while Vect keeps the unit fearless... then everything just munches whatever was escorting Celestine. If Celey was alone to just tie them up, most builds can hit and run out of combat and assault whatever they really wanted to in the first place.

@Tyrs13 - My current approach (and the one I have had the best luck with) has been to abuse the fact that have to string the unit out to keep Vect in coherency. The DK has been a lifesaver - if they leave a bunch of flocks in the "open" I can shunt next to them and instant-death at least 3, often more. If they do a good job of bubble-wrapping by placing the BM and Khymeras well I honestly just tend to ignore the unit and run away while trying to kill their troops. DK and Seraphim are GREAT for troop hunting, and I suspect I may be able to start leaving the Seraphim back to play with the beasts while the 4-flamer Doms outflank to kill his troops. I have also toyed with the idea of bringing in a Vindicare to deal with Vect... but I do not think it is practical. I would also highly recommend keeping at least 1 of your troops in reserve, if only to allow you to put them on whichever side of the board the unit does not head for, to buy it an extra turn.

Not just a normal Beast Master List ... they use the one with vec and baron ... then throw in Eldrad as a ally for invis.

I been thinking about it.

WIth my IG i could probably saturate them with Str6 + shots ....
4 RL/ 3 Exorsists/ 3 Las Cannons/ 4 Grenade Launchers

IG can Force rerolls and all sucessful cover saves with an order. Use that on the Blobs with the most guns.

They will have a 2+ Cover save though ... :I they are bound to fail 3~4. Turn 2 charges from what i hear ...

Yeah, my perspective is definitely from SoB/GK... if I was running guard I'd have no idea what I would do -- probably what Jancoran said and hope the die are in your favor!

Use something that ignores cover and is barrage, i.e. snipe from behind Vect.

Tyrs13 wrote:
Not just a normal Beast Master List ... they use the one with vec and baron ... then throw in Eldrad as a ally for invis.

Oh, so we're talking about 2/3 of their army in one unit. Fair enough. Same thing really, just focus fire. Invis doesn't help when you drop enough templates on them. Celestine and Seraphim can choose their approach so as to target the models they want and not just soak attacks into Vect. It isn't easy, but defeating a 1000+ point combo never is.


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Also, as my opponent this weekend found out, the beastmaster/Baron/Eldrad combo is very reliant on luck. No invis during rolling and Baron eating a krak missle put that paid pretty quick.

One of my opponents is cursed that way, rolling a 1 for his first shadowfield save a few times now.