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I know Hulk got jumped on a bit last page, but it's a sentiment a lot of people have (myself included). You're getting more than a miniature, but as far as what you're getting in miniatures-terms per box, it feels expensive.

For myself, I'm basically choosing between Infinity and X-wing, since a fair number of people at my local store have picked up each. But I'm leaning towards Infinity because they both fill the "skirmish game" role for me, but I get more in terms of models from Infinity- also with a rather low buy-in.

My point is, it doesn't have to be "either/or"... this game does indeed strike some people as expensive, and that's a valid view to have (even if you don't share it). Some people are going to value the miniature above additional gaming components in weighing what is a good value... and that's what I tend to do (although I'm thinking over it now, of course).

All that said, red intercepters almost sways me back the other way and I love that this game is taking off!! At the very least, I hope to play occasionally using other people's stuff, since folks seem more open to that with these models and most folks having both sides.

It's fair enough Stevie.

15 bucks is a lot for such a teeny tiny model single model. But, one should not forget how much extra stuff comes with, cards, tokens, dials etc, or that it is painted... how many hours would you spend painting other games like infinity or 40k? How much is your time worth?

On top of that, again, it's important to take the holistic view. How much do you need to spend to have enough to play a decent variety of games?

I put forward earlier that 150 bucks should get you quite a lot of mileage out of x-wing. Done and done, you get home, you open some clamshells, you pop out some cardboard, and boom, 20 mins later you are completely, totally, 100% ready to play. And, it should be able to play dozens if not hundreds of games at that price point, rarely if ever playing the same lists twice if you don't want to. Thats the pretty cool thing about x-wing, 1 ship is all the ships in it's class. No need to model extra stuff. Or have 5 almost the same ships with a different pouch or backpack for WYSIWYG.

I accept that if you are looking at it in terms of quantity of plastic per dollar, yes, it is expensive. However, I still argue that taken as quantity of game per dollar, it is probably the single cheapest miniature game out there.

I'm not harping on this to belittle the opposing viewpoint btw, it is simply that understanding the value of the game relative to it's price is very difficult until you get into it as it doesn't line up to the pricing models of other systems most of us play on these forums. It really needs to be evaluated on it's own, because the play value of one clamshell ship vs the cost/play value of any given 28mm mini is pretty severely disproportionate. It's not how much one ship is, it's how little of them you need to have a really robust set of play options.

But you do need to understand that a lot of us have significantly less game time than hobby time. Which also skews the ratio. It's a to each their own. I get why people think it's cheap to play (cause as a game it is) but when I think about buying a single model for $15 or buying 10 that I get to build and paint for $30-$40 I know where my money is likely to go. Since I get vastly more value out of my hobby dollar on the second purchase.

TBH as someone who is quite happy playing both of them, they don't really scratch any of the same itches IMO.
Besides, IME infinity does get more expensive both to start off with (in any serious way) as well as once you try to build up some variety in your force(s).
Both good games, but it really is comparing apples to oranges and pricewise, unless you do a MT11 on xwing infinity will be more expensive.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I accept that if you are looking at it in terms of quantity of plastic per dollar, yes, it is expensive. However, I still argue that taken as quantity of game per dollar, it is probably the single cheapest miniature game out there.

Just wanted to note that I actually agree with this . I'm just still deciding if it's for me, as that's a different way of approaching things (a bit of a cross with board gaming) than I have in the past.

I just think the reaction is totally reasonable and so wanted to point that out! That said, I am open to seeing the light... or the dark... side of the issue

It doesn't make sense to force X-Wing into comparisons with traditional war games. Keep the 'random consumer' test in mind: take a random person off the street and consider how much it would cost them in terms of time and money to get into something like Infinity as opposed to X-Wing. Keep in mind, this random person is highly unlikely to have any hobby supplies (including tools, paints, etc, etc), skill in using that stuff, or even the interest to do so -- much less terrain, dedicated game space, and so on. It's just not fair to traditional miniatures games to compare them to X-Wing because it is obviously a lot cheaper and more accessible for the random consumer.

So sure if you have already spent the small fortunes that many of us have to get invested in miniatures war gaming, you can say one Infinity model is cheaper than one X-Wing expansion (depending on how you value your own time). But this kind of evaluation ultimately says more about you than the game.

@ Hulk - If you count your hobby as just as important or more important than game time, and if you have them both intrinsically linked as a single whole, then ya, that is a case I may say maybe it's not the game for you. That does indeed make sense and I acknowledge the point.

If you look at the models as 90% for hobby time OR display, ya, they are pricey.

In other words, if you plan on playing, this is a fantastically cheap game. If part of your investment involves painting and modelling as entertainment, you are pretty much zero return on that front.

Good point man thanks for pointing that out to me.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Since I get vastly more value out of my hobby dollar on the second purchase.

Yep -- this is an excellent caveat. If you are buying miniatures to assemble and paint, X-Wing is not the best use of your money.

 RiTides wrote:
and most folks having both sides.

I find that has mostly to do with getting all the upgrade cards. To get all of the open cards(those not tied to certain ships or sides), you need to get at least one of every booster. So lots of people(I've seen) buy both sides so they have access to all the best upgrades for their main fleets.

Also, cause it's so cheap, there's no reason NOT to play both.

We're not the random consumer though. We're all pretty much nerdy gamers. I was reflecting on it from a nerdy gamer perspective. Only have good things to say about the game in general. Just got piled on because I find the dollar value isn't as high as other hobby stuff out there. Hence, the price of the models is to high. The tipping point is about $10 where it becomes a reasonable purchase for me. Above that, not so much (naturally it's different for the big ships).

@Manchu

That was the caveat from earlier. I just didn't articulate it well enough

 Bolognesus wrote:
TBH as someone who is quite happy playing both of them, they don't really scratch any of the same itches IMO.

Yes, very very good point. I love X-Wing but it is nothing like playing a more traditional miniature skirmish wargame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
We're not the random consumer though.

Well ... that is what my post takes into account, after all ...

 Manchu wrote:
So sure if you have already spent the small fortunes that many of us have to get invested in miniatures war gaming, you can say one Infinity model is cheaper than one X-Wing expansion (depending on how you value your own time). But this kind of evaluation ultimately says more about you than the game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
and most folks having both sides.

I find that has mostly to do with getting all the upgrade cards

For me, and I daresay Tom, it's more a matter of wanting to play both sides and for people we game with who haven't bought anything yet to be able to play. Folks in my group, however, tend to collect one or the other.

Well, saying it's a zero value of hobby time isn't exactly true; you are free to repaint the models to suit your whims and many people have done so (with some having some nice results as the underlying models are quite nice). It's more annoying than getting naked models on the sprue as you either need to carefully strip the paint using particular methods or be exceedingly careful with the brush. The possibility for hobby time does exist though, it's just not "required" as it would be for a traditional wargame.

For example there's this fellow who was just ahead of his time apparently: http://www.starwarsxwing.com/?p=20 and also produced this repaint of Slave I: http://i.imgur.com/p8mxksY.jpg

Then there's the fellow who wanted his A-Wings to be different: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CAy0qz_I5ck/UijcauwnV0I/AAAAAAAAEdI/ncQj__ggLRI/s400/20130904_192657.jpg

You also have the folks who craft their own ships like this prototype A-Wing: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5479/9213818198_608ffb0583_b.jpg and paint them: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5458/9321718899_3b2b4e931a_b.jpg

Since you get multiple pilots in each expansion, you could just use bases from other ships you're not using right that second and throw them right in.

I think you'll find Tom is well aware that one can repaint X-Wing stuff ...

Yeah, but Tom exists on a different plane in that regard.

I suspect he knows exactly how big an Imperial Star Destroyer would be because he's got the foam measured out already....

 Manchu wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
TBH as someone who is quite happy playing both of them, they don't really scratch any of the same itches IMO.

Yes, very very good point. I love X-Wing but it is nothing like playing a more traditional miniature skirmish wargame.

Well, I suppose this is the thing. Starter set, perhaps a couple more ships and you have enough to play with right there.

In terms of value for money, I've had a couple of people I know (not serious wargamers, but ones who take an interest), who, when I suggested that they played WFB laugh at me first and then tell me to feth off when I was persistent (and this is some years ago, when it was cheaper than it is now) since get into X-wing and happily spend £50 or so on it.

I think it's the smaller buy-in; the fact that you don't need to spend money on paints and terrain, or even spend time modelling and painting, that will be seen as a big 'plus' for some people, while it's seen as a negative by others because they enjoy those things. I absolutely love X-Wing, it's tremendous fun, but I wouldn't like it to be the only game I play. Fortunately, it's cheap enough (in time and money) to be a additional system to collect and play.

 Hulksmash wrote:
We're not the random consumer though. We're all pretty much nerdy gamers. I was reflecting on it from a nerdy gamer perspective. Only have good things to say about the game in general. Just got piled on because I find the dollar value isn't as high as other hobby stuff out there.

That was my point exactly too, that from a lot of "our" perspectives as nerdy wargamers, the value might not seem to be there. But I'm still considering if I've got enough board gamer in me to feel it's worth it . I've certainly been trying to get into the board game world more lately, as I am designing my own . So, we'll see!

I'm getting really interested in repainting some of these, do you guys strip these first? Any tuts?

MajorTom might have something in his blog.
All the Star Wars stuff starts here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/432632.page#5711104

He thought you'd never ask

(Link to MT11's P&M blog where he shows his process of repainting a lot of these models . It's impressive!)

Edit: Also, from what I can tell, Tom doesn't strip the models. This might be helpful, though:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Vallejo Model Khaki and Vallejo Model Deck Tan at an even mix will net you the x-wing color -

As a note, vallejo Game stonewall grey is a match for the tie fighter hulls btw -

I did strip some. Don't bother though, it isn't worth the trouble, they paint up just fine without em.

He he he 'You can repaint them'.... he he he....

That was more for people arguing that other models had a "hobby value" that these were lacking. I am well aware of your own Herculean efforts in this regard.

Lol no worries man, and for the record, an Imperial Star Destroyer would be 22ft in scale, and the DeathStar would be 2-5 KM, depending if you meant the first or 2nd

That being said, I loved repainting this stuff, it was pretty quick and easy. Every last ship I own is more or less completely re-done. But, it is also completely unnecessary as from more than 2 ft away you can barely tell, the stock paintjobs really are quite good all things considered.

Yes, my previous experience with prepaints left me soured on them which I blame for why I delayed so long in picking up X-Wing. FFG has done an excellent job with these, IMO, and while it's not the same as having "my" marines or "my" undead on the table they still capture that immersive feeling.

Good rules, good models, deep options and strategies and the starter can be had in the US for $27. If X-Wing is played nearby, one could probably easily sell it for $25 if they decided they hated the game, so the risk there would seem fairly minimal. At that price though, the models would have been worth it to me for nostalgia if nothing else. The game being good prompted this fleet that has mysteriously appeared at my house....

 Manchu wrote:
And, again, it's hard to talk about per model price when you are buying more than a model.

Well, you do get cards and tokens and such, but let's be frank - that's because of FFG's card/token/custom dice fetish and a conscious decision to sell extra miniatures as "Expansion packs" by providing things only through this means that would have been included in the core/starter set in other games. It would have been entirely possible for FFG to handle the "chit factor" differently by providing all the rules in one small booklet (Armies of the Imperium circa 3rd ed) or inside the core rulebook (the older LotR-SBG books) or even all of the cards in the core starter boxed game (A&A Angels 20). Even the SW Minis game I mentioned earlier came with a bunch of prepainted models in each booster - all of which had a stat card provided with them.

I like the game too, and I've spent several hundred on it and will continue to buy product that appeals to me. It doesn't mean the figures aren't expensive per model, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Cmon though... you need like 3-4 ships per side and you have quite a bit of variety to choose from. for 150-160 bucks you can have 2 cores, ~6-8 expansion packs, depending on the discounts you can find.

You think, oh, that's only 10-12 ships. 10-12 ships in this game is the equivalent of like 2 5000 pt armies in 40k in terms of relative options and flexibility.
How much is 10k pts of 40k?
Tell me again it's expensive

*disclaimer - being a bit tongue in cheek here, everyone is of course entitled to feel differently based on their own preference. That being said, I do honestly believe that people who think the game is expensive are basing themselves off their purchasing experiences with other games and not understanding how little it takes to have a ton of game variety with x-wing.

I get what you're saying, but it's the Warmachine argument I mentioned before - apples and oranges really. Do you know how much you'd need to spend to have a viable "force" for a game of marbles? And with that kind of argument, would you like me to work out the Australian "retail prices" for the X-Wing stuff as a counter to best-US-price-discount?

Price for entry and price for "viability" (whatever that is) is a separate argument to price per model.

@Azazelx: I don't think the game would be as popular without all the board game chotskies. I don't think it would be as good of a game.

The cool thing that's getting me interested enough to try the game is the absolutely healthy fan support. Going onto Boardgamegeek found me homemade (really high quality!) cards, about 5 different unique pilots with their base inserts/maneuver dials for Z95 Headhunters (which are an old gaming favorite of mine), as well as several really awesome Shapeways links for 3D models.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/919596/z-95-headhunter-expansion

Also a flat print-out paper model of a full true-scale Correlian Corvette, with game-quality printed cards and a special scenario to play it with where one side is defending from raiders. Some guy even made opposing Rebel and Imperial ships, and with a little change to the scenario listed above, you could actually have two Corvettes duke it from either side of a table out while two squadrons dogfight in the middle as opposing CAP squads.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/860628/custom-mission-the-redeemer

So even though it's a somewhat simple game, it's a game where there is a ton of fan-service for it even after you have bought the official models.

Anpu-adom wrote:

I'm going to compare the base game to other starter sets.

Apples and oranges. Watermelons, maybe. You're making a severely flawed argument. You're comparing three small, well-painted for prepaints little starfighters to boxed games, some ready to play out-of-the-box that contain a metric shedload more models, and then saying those starter sets (DV, OF) are "hard" because you have to assemble the models.

I brought up price per model when someone chose to compare an X-wing ship to a cherry-picked example of one of the most expensive plastic models that GW produces.

But please, if you must continue down this path of comparing starter sets, try to use more appropriate games. Prepainted miniatures games seem to be the closest. Star Wars Miniatures, Heroclix, Axis and Allies, War at Sea, Angels 20, etc. I understand that Pathfinder has a prepaint game of some sort as well.

http://www.amazon.com/War-Sea-Starter-Allies-Miniatures/dp/0786953853
http://www.amazon.com/Axis-Allies-Air-Force-Miniatures/dp/0786958650/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

Now I'm not stupid. I understand that there are licence fees associated with the SW licence that are not cheap, and also that the SW licance has a lot more of us playing this game over, say, the WW1 and WW2 games that are close cousins. But none of this negates the fact that the models are quite expensive per model.

Anyway. I'd love to stay and argue some more, but I need to get to work now. Laters.

 Azazelx wrote:
It's an expensive game per model.

 Azazelx wrote:

Apples and oranges. Watermelons, maybe. You're making a severely flawed argument.

You've answered your own point.

Expensive-per-model games are made more palatable by low-model count gamestyles. I would say that if you take away all the other material and assign a blind "10 dollar" price tag to an FFG X-wing, that is not that bad considering the other markets and in current prices. A single GW Eldar Warlock is $11.50US, and is only the slightest fraction of a playable force, even if using very small skirmish rules.

Krinsath - regarding your point about making the minis your own, I've found they take paint very easily. Just half an hour and some painted panels, my millenium falcon has been changed into some random YT-1300 smugglers vessel.

Now I'm not stupid. I understand that there are licence fees associated with the SW licence that are not cheap, and also that the SW licance has a lot more of us playing this game over, say, the WW1 and WW2 games that are close cousins. But none of this negates the fact that the models are quite expensive per model.

It doesn't negate it of course, but I think most people would argue it's a pretty pointless factor to point out when one is considering the overall price of a standard game.