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 TheAuldGrump wrote:
it appears that the root of the problem - both times - is that I was registered on Mantic Digital via Kickstarter

Welp, that explains why my account vanished, too. I guess I'll have to go through the same process...

 Sarouan wrote:

Doesn't sound like a better ruleset to me. Actually, it really sounds like what GW would have done for WFB in the past. Thanks for this series of quotes, indeed, I appreciate the irony here.

For me it sounds like the opposite of what GW would have done, but to each his own

And I would count an additional small special rule that solves a problem for some players, even if it was a minor one, making a better rule set.
Or in other words I cannot understand while one consider not solving a problem to making the rules better

 kodos wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:

Doesn't sound like a better ruleset to me. Actually, it really sounds like what GW would have done for WFB in the past. Thanks for this series of quotes, indeed, I appreciate the irony here.

For me it sounds like the opposite of what GW would have done, but to each his own

And I would count an additional small special rule that solves a problem for some players, even if it was a minor one, making a better rule set.
Or in other words I cannot understand while one consider not solving a problem to making the rules better

Because there was no problem at the start ? It's like fixing a hole that never existed, by drilling another hole elsewhere.

Think about it, in KoW units always fight to their full capabilities or do nothing. There is no in-betweens. This rule is bringing that, and only to the units who got a double one on a morale test. This is so specific and different from the core rules, you can only ask : why only in this case and not the same for everyone ? There are far more troubling concerns, like the overpowering hordes / monsters with high values of morale, that can fight longer to their full capabilities all the time in comparison to troops or regiments. Why not halving their attacks too if they take too heavy damages ?

But no, let's do it to those units having luck, so that competitive players who can't stand dice not rolling in their favor "ruin" their plan/games are happy. That's how you fix the game.

Really ?

 Psychopomp wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
it appears that the root of the problem - both times - is that I was registered on Mantic Digital via Kickstarter

Welp, that explains why my account vanished, too. I guess I'll have to go through the same process...

That's certainly useful info, I've not looked yet but I bet I've got the same problem

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Psychopomp wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
it appears that the root of the problem - both times - is that I was registered on Mantic Digital via Kickstarter

Welp, that explains why my account vanished, too. I guess I'll have to go through the same process...

That's certainly useful info, I've not looked yet but I bet I've got the same problem

Well, if my problem helps other people fix their problem, then it makes me feel a whole lot better about it.

The Auld Grump

Saruoan is really the grumpiest grump ever seen, do you actually play this game or are you just here for bashing Mantic?

If you are just here to bash Mantic, then go after their minis, the rules of KoW have been really great for 2nd ed, better with each CoK and practically all the leaked rules for 3rd looks great for the gameplay.

I was not hopeful they would make infantry better for example, but man did they! Measuring from the closest point is a massive boost for hordes of infantry.

Fixing 1" rule is great, making hills useful is great, phalanx changes are great, army specific upgrades, tiered item costs +++

Only thing that sucks for me personally is that EoD chariots are irregular, bye bye to my chariot heavy EoD army.

 Illumini wrote:
Saruoan is really the grumpiest grump ever seen, do you actually play this game or are you just here for bashing Mantic?

There are loads of GW-haters who actively troll every GeeDub release, so it seems natural for Mantic-haters to do the same. I suppose it shows Mantic has arrived as a publisher

Only thing that sucks for me personally is that EoD chariots are irregular, bye bye to my chariot heavy EoD army.

I've been wary of Mantic double-nerfing things, and it does feel like shooting chariots have been double nerfed a bit, by losing half of their shooting and becoming irregular - as well as the changes to phalanx, etc. On the whole, tho, I love what I'm seeing of 3E.

In fact, just finishing up a new Trident Realm army for a 2E tournament this weekend, and I think a lot of us are just in it for the mayhem at this point, with the shakeup just around the corner. Excited to repoint my armies and see where they fall.

 Illumini wrote:
Saruoan is really the grumpiest grump ever seen, do you actually play this game or are you just here for bashing Mantic?

Of course I'm playing. Why do you think I actually know the rules I'm ranting about ? I don't like that so called "fix" because I believe it's a bad move to make a special rule completely going against the core principles of KoW (there was no effect on numbers of attacks because of morale test before), especially for such a trivial matter than the double 1 result on morale tests. Seriously, only competitive players not able to handle dice are making that a bigger trouble than it really is.

But hey, feel free to say it's just "Mantic hate". I'm just not blindly hyped by a new edition pulled right off the hat, while I still remember the CoK 2019 being sold not so long ago and acting like there was no new edition coming and actually making the CoK you bought completely useless. Since Mantic fanboys like to brag about how Mantic is so much better than GW, here is a good reminder that they are actually no better than them in more than one situation.

If you are just here to bash Mantic, then go after their minis, the rules of KoW have been really great for 2nd ed, better with each CoK and practically all the leaked rules for 3rd looks great for the gameplay.

Yeah, I like 2nd edition, not so much when the Rule Comitee began to add more and more special rules or "fixing" problems because a minority of the gamer community is ranting online about stuff they've met in tournaments. And 3rd edition is looking more and more like that to me.

So you'll excuse me if I'm not especially enthousiastic about every preview Mantic Games is showing us while expecting a wave of fanboys clapping their hands everytime they're farting.

I was not hopeful they would make infantry better for example, but man did they! Measuring from the closest point is a massive boost for hordes of infantry.

Boosting hordes will not make the game better...trouble with basic infantry is the comparison with Monstruous Infantry. They don't seem to have fixed the core problem behind that matter to me, so far.

Full Disclosure: I'd be 100% fine if 3E just adjusted the points, ingested the formation unit buffs and did away with the concept for a while, and nerfed Flying somehow. I don't necessarily want all this extra stuff.

So I'm happy to see additional changes that look manageable, thought-out and fun. Am I concerned that too much is being added to what was a fundamentally simple system? Sure. But I'm hopeful the game experience will remain the same largely stream-lined sweet spot we're in now, with some wrinkles ironed out (double 1 NPE) and some flavor added. What I personally need from 3E is increased balance; however I also know that what others need is more flavor and more depth.

Hopefully we can all be happy with where the game lands.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Hopefully we can all be happy with where the game lands.

Honestly, I wish you're right. I love KoW for the way it manages to make a great mass battle system while keeping it simple. The reason the army lists feel so balanced even so they are many are thanks to that, so that's why I'm wary of having too many new special rules for the sake of having special rules. That makes me remember the slippery slope of Warhammer Fantasy Battle in their last years.

I would have been glad if they just upgraded the background and made minor modifications like the layout, indeed, but I guess that wouldn't justify a new edition and selling a new core rule book (because that's the point of a new edition, just like GW did - making customers buy everything once again)

I'll see once I have the full picture with the book in hand, even if that rule for the double 1 really annoys me. As long as it's just an annoyance and the rest is great, I'll manage to handle it.

I don't often agree with Sarouan, but I'm leaning his way in some of his arguments.

The minute you add more and more special rule keywords, and exceptions to other rules, and more and more special rules, you've turned a great game into a GW game.
KoW's joy, is it's simplicity.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I don't often agree with Sarouan, but I'm leaning his way in some of his arguments.

The minute you add more and more special rule keywords, and exceptions to other rules, and more and more special rules, you've turned a great game into a GW game.
KoW's joy, is it's simplicity.

I agree with this, special rule bloat is the antithesis of the spirirt of Kings of War

NTRabbit wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I don't often agree with Sarouan, but I'm leaning his way in some of his arguments.

The minute you add more and more special rule keywords, and exceptions to other rules, and more and more special rules, you've turned a great game into a GW game.
KoW's joy, is it's simplicity.

I agree with this, special rule bloat is the antithesis of the spirirt of Kings of War

This is true. I don't think we need to worry just yet, but I hope we don't go much further in this direction.

From the team behind hit games such as Hellboy: The Board Game and Dungeon Saga: The Dwarf’s Kings Quest, League of Infamy is an occasionally co-operative dungeon crawler for 1-5 players, where it pays to commit dastardly deeds and partake in foul thievery – often against your own party.

Join a rogue’s gallery of misfits, ne’er-do-wells and miscreants on a disgraceful mission to kidnap cute little baby Drakons, steal their eggs and viciously wipe out any irritating, goody-goody Elves that try to stop your nefarious schemes.

But it’s not just the Elves you’ll need to keep a wary eye on. Your fellow (mis)adventurers are just as likely to betray you and steal your loot, shove you into harm’s way or just leave you in a dungeon full of unbeatable foes. As they like to say in the League of Infamy – ‘keep your enemies close but keep your friends at knifepoint’.

Coming soon to Kickstarter, the opening pledge for League of Infamy includes incredibly detailed pre-assembled miniatures, almost 200 cards, more than 200 tokens, six action-packed missions, seven playable villains and lots of great Kickstarter exclusive content. But that's just the beginning and with your help, we'll be able to add more villains, more loot, more skills and (most importantly) more anarchy.

Better proportions for the elves, at last. Otherwise, well, it's very classic so very Mantica - sorry, I meant Pannithor. Funny to see the dragons are litterally the baby versions from GoT.

It will fund as a kickstarter, no problem. Even though I don't believe they need to kickstart it at all.

I expect the core elves from this game to become the next core elves for KoW in a future mega army set, with miniatures having the same pose over and over and over. But yeah, they will look good, I'm sure of it.

All those minis look great and the premise sounds fun. I’m in.


These new elves can be the real eves and the old elves can be the fae or something less worldly.

I'm really liking the elves. They will go beautifully with my historically-proportioned "Not-Empire" Landsknechts.

Overall pretty good. Not really sure about the werehamster though.

Hmmm. I'm not sure. I went way in on the Dungeon Saga kickstarter based on the vibe that the Adventurer's Companion would be the Warhammer Quest add-on to the core game's Heroquest. Then Jake Thornton decided that since he hated WHQ, he wasn't going to write it that way.

I got a lot of decent dungeon minis and tiles, but I still feel pretty burned on the game rules.

On the flipside Jake didn't work on Hellboy. That was based on James Hewitt's rules (who also did Warhammer Quest Silver Tower).

I wasn't super happy with how the Adventurer's Companion turned out either. So much so that I never bothered to give the quest generation system from Star Saga a try yet, despite owning it for some time (and enjoying Star Saga much more than the Dungeon version).

 .Mikes. wrote:
Overall pretty good. Not really sure about the werehamster though.

Werehamster and fat baby dragon are fails IMO, but otherwise a really nice set of minis who will be great heroes in KOW as well as their own game. And yea, time to update your ancient Elf line with these bodies, Mantic

I think the minis look great except for the fat rat. I like they have steady poses, not some crazy weird dynamic stances.
I'd like to see a bigger picture though.

I probably missed it but why just 14 armies in the main book. Don't they have like 22 army lists once you count everything and the new stuff?

 Hulksmash wrote:
I probably missed it but why just 14 armies in the main book. Don't they have like 22 army lists once you count everything and the new stuff?

I think it's because Mantic is starting to shift slowly towards promoting their own products instead of "use what thou wilt". Didn't check, but if I remember correctly the 14 armies in the main book correspond to stuff they have a line for, while the extra factions that will launch in a supplement 6 weeks after release will have armies that existed in 2nd ed. but don't have specific Mantic miniatures. So drawing a clear line.

This is quite reasonable. Their miniatures becoming better and better is also a point in favor (despite price hike).

VBS wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I probably missed it but why just 14 armies in the main book. Don't they have like 22 army lists once you count everything and the new stuff?

I think it's because Mantic is starting to shift slowly towards promoting their own products instead of "use what thou wilt". Didn't check, but if I remember correctly the 14 armies in the main book correspond to stuff they have a line for, while the extra factions that will launch in a supplement 6 weeks after release will have armies that existed in 2nd ed. but don't have specific Mantic miniatures. So drawing a clear line.

This is quite reasonable. Their miniatures becoming better and better is also a point in favor (despite price hike).

The line is a bit more blurred than that, the distinction would be better described as "developing full range" in the main book.

 Psychopomp wrote:
Hmmm. I'm not sure. I went way in on the Dungeon Saga kickstarter based on the vibe that the Adventurer's Companion would be the Warhammer Quest add-on to the core game's Heroquest. Then Jake Thornton decided that since he hated WHQ, he wasn't going to write it that way.

I got a lot of decent dungeon minis and tiles, but I still feel pretty burned on the game rules.

I felt the same way about the rules, but less generous on the quality of the miniatures, as so many of them were badly warped and there was a lot of small, spindly Mantic-ness to many of them as well. Some were nice, though, to be fair...

The rules and Adventurer's Companion BS was what stopped me from even backing Star Saga.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Was there a firm answer to what will happen to KoW Historical? I always really enjoyed the KoW ruleset and it worked nicely for me to run Historical Battles without needing to learn another set of rues, not to mention supplementing human armies with approriate fantasy/mythological elements or vice versa (ie Vikings plus trolls and werewolves), Greeks plus Minotaurs, Skeletons, Hydras, etc)

 Hulksmash wrote:
I probably missed it but why just 14 armies in the main book. Don't they have like 22 army lists once you count everything and the new stuff?

Here are all of the armies releasing for KOW 3E:

Main Book:

01 Abyssal Dwarfs
02 Dwarfs
03 Elves
04 Empire of Dust
05 Forces of Basilea
06 Forces of Nature
07 Forces of the Abyss
08 Goblins
09 Nightstalkers
10 Northern Alliance
11 Ogres
12 Orcs
13 Trident Realm
14 Undead

Armies of Pannithor Book:

15 Free Dwarfs
16 Kingdoms of Men
17 League of Rhordia
18 Order of the Brothermark
19 Order of the Green Lady
20 Ratkin
21 Ratkin Slaves
22 Salamanders
23 Sylvan Kin
24 The Herd
25 Twilight Kin
26 Varangur

There's a second book with more lists that follows ~8 weeks later. Not a fan of splitting them in half - I would rather fluff + rules // all army lists if they had to make two books, released at the same time - but whatever, I work in publishing so I can imagine some of the production issues that may be driving this, on top of profit seeking.

Several of the Pannithor lists are derivatives of another army or are remixes of a couple. Varangur are Northern Alliance except evil and with some units dropped and extra ones added, maybe with some items or new special rule or something, for example. Free Dwarfs focus on non-blackpowder units, with rangers forming the core and maybe berserkers as regular line troops (changed to irregular in the Dwarf list). Ratkin Slaves, on the other hand, have been mentioned as a combo of Abyssal Dwarfs + Ratkins (maybe this ends up being the 'mad science + slave blocks' of most Skaven armies of old?)

It does make me happy I very recently painted a Trident army, as otherwise I'd be left waiting until Dec to get my rats or sallies on the 3E table

Wood Elves also going their own way then? And two flavours of Bretonnia? I'm not sure I approve of all these splinter lists.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Wood Elves also going their own way then? And two flavours of Bretonnia? I'm not sure I approve of all these splinter lists.

Pretty sure Brets are best served by the Brothermark (a subset of ... Basileans?) tho they could do KOM if they fancied, and if you mean Sylvan Kin, my guess is that's Elves + Nature. We don't know much about the remixed armies yet, but it's an interesting choice likely done to maintain balance as well as maximize Mantic's limited sculpting / production capacity.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Wood Elves also going their own way then? And two flavours of Bretonnia? I'm not sure I approve of all these splinter lists.

Its helps if you remember that there's technically no such thing as Bretonnia in King of War, and that the Brotherhood has, in the background, been almost wiped out by the war with the Abyss.