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I can live with that.

I stand corrected!

I thought KoM Scouts had lost Nimble, however I opened the file in a dedicated PDF viewer rather than in-browser and they do have Nimble.

The -1 Me is still completely unjustified, they are still useless but I was wrong about the nerf.

I didn't even notice that part. I felt that bumping their costs while nerfing their fight value was, you know, a nerf.

Bumping their costs was part of the whole "change the points and base statlines of everything so that all the experience and intuition of the community around balance is useless" change.

Am I the only one disappointed that the rules for the Holy Hand Grenade don't require you to count to three (And not 2 and not 4. 5 is right out!).

Also slightly annoyed that KoM lost The Captain profile, he was a pretty unique hero that actually added more than just fightiness (giving D3+1 units Vanguard, I believe)

I'm disappointed my Conflictmallet magic item didn't make it in.

Pretty much like every tweak to the rules, thanks Daedle and the RC for getting in the few changes that needed to be in there.

Going through the army lists right now, no big complaints. Warmachines Blast changes = big thumbs up

So what's this supposed chart for? Can't download rules at work.

Happy with the Salamanders though. Wish they had a bit more of a neck.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
So what's this supposed chart for?

It's one rule for one character in one army, so naturally it's the end of the fething world and the game is doomed...

 Alex C wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
So what's this supposed chart for?

It's one rule for one character in one army, so naturally it's the end of the fething world and the game is doomed...

I thought I felt a little doomed today. Now I know why.

In all seriousness, I don't think he said the game was doomed. He just didn't like that part of it. I tend to agree. Random charts suck.

Really though, it's the non-tzeentch certainly-not-greater daemon being a little unpredictable. I really don't see the issue if it's just a handful of things like that, honestly.

That's fair. I don't think its a big deal either. I was just stating how I felt about them. If I quit a game every time I didn't like something I wouldn't have any games left to play.

Alessio completely deleting Wights, a unit with an actual model, is probably going to be a bigger problem then, because the KS expressly stated no units were being removed.

Also instead of adding other kinds of swarms like Goblins, Zombie swarms were deleted.

I don't believe the Wights decision was Alessio's (there are 3 "factions" in the process: Alessio, Rules Committee, Studio).

What reason would they have for removing units outright? Especially one with an existing model? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume there were reasons, but its curious.

I hate to say it, but thats a GW thing to do if there ever was one.

 AlexHolker wrote:
Trolls and Giants are so stupid they're the only units in the army that can't misunderstand their orders. Good job, Mantic.

That is either an EPIC level of irony or pure genius, and I can't decide which.

 AlexHolker wrote:
Trolls and Giants are so stupid they're the only units in the army that can't misunderstand their orders. Good job, Mantic.

Yes, I agree, good job, they don't suffer from Utterly Spineless. That hasn't changed. If they did, that would be absolutely fething terrible rules writing.

 Baragash wrote:
I don't believe the Wights decision was Alessio's (there are 3 "factions" in the process: Alessio, Rules Committee, Studio).

Is there any actual way to feed back the fact that we feel that the removal of units is bs? Or just post on the little feedback forum and hope they give a gak enough to take notice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NTRabbit wrote:
Alessio completely deleting Wights, a unit with an actual model, is probably going to be a bigger problem then, because the KS expressly stated no units were being removed.
Also instead of adding other kinds of swarms like Goblins, Zombie swarms were deleted.

Do you know where that quote is located?

Also, humans lost their Priests and pentinents/fanatics.

This alleged shenanigans is honestly killing my enthusiasm.

I guess it's true that you should never see how the sausage is made!

I'm willing to give the rules a try anyhow. As long as the core remains a fast to play streamlined fantasy game I will be happier with it than the current mass battle alternatives.

It's not just "the sausage", DB. It's the changes to the army lists (I've had several units removed from my armies) that are really fething me off.

The Abyssal list also has quite a few units with their very own unit-specific special rules - in a very Warhammer move that goes against the USR grain of KoW.

Random point inflation makes no sense at all, and fething about with so many unit profiles is also needless.

Right, sorry if I seemed flippant. I haven't really had time to look at things in depth and do comparisons. I am pretty worried that KoW might end up Warhammerified, which would really suck. Individual special rules would be quite off putting to me. I want a game that is easy to teach and fast to play.

Deleting units is also very strange I think. Perhaps they're doing it in a misguided attempt to differentiate themselves from GW for some future strategy, but I really wish they wouldn't because even if they never make a model for a unit, leaving it in there doesn't really harm anyone.

I am a bit surprised at how the rules development is being done to be honest. I would expect something with more oversight from any games company of Mantic's size. It sounds like AC is being given a pretty free reign with things, without much editorial oversight from Mantic. The poor publicity from dissatisfaction from members of the rules committee is also pretty bad for the game's general PR. So I share your worries but I'm trying to be upbeat because like you I really want KoW to be a success!

I dislike how every army seems to be getting regeneration. Naiads in forces of nature, all of the creatures from Abyssals, I think. Saw some others as well. Just seems like taking the cool rule of undead and spreading it about instead of coming up with a different idea. Also the forces of nature army just seems too diverse and not very cohesive, which I mentioned in the kickstarter.

Well, Alessio is ex-GW, they are experts at making changes just for the sake of making changes. I don't have a KoW army, so I'm theoretically unaffected, but stat and cost changes across the board mean that the game isn't getting any closer to being balanced, they just cleared the board and started again from zero with no reference points.

Well, trolls had it from jump. And it really does make sense for daemons and spirit forms to have regen. They basically gave it to the spirits (Elohi, demons, naiads, etc). And trolls. Trolls need it.

 Da Boss wrote:
Right, sorry if I seemed flippant. I haven't really had time to look at things in depth and do comparisons. I am pretty worried that KoW might end up Warhammerified, which would really suck. Individual special rules would be quite off putting to me. I want a game that is easy to teach and fast to play.

Deleting units is also very strange I think. Perhaps they're doing it in a misguided attempt to differentiate themselves from GW for some future strategy, but I really wish they wouldn't because even if they never make a model for a unit, leaving it in there doesn't really harm anyone.

I am a bit surprised at how the rules development is being done to be honest. I would expect something with more oversight from any games company of Mantic's size. It sounds like AC is being given a pretty free reign with things, without much editorial oversight from Mantic. The poor publicity from dissatisfaction from members of the rules committee is also pretty bad for the game's general PR. So I share your worries but I'm trying to be upbeat because like you I really want KoW to be a success!

I do too, but a good game is more important for me than it being a success. At this point, I'd much rather play the RC's version with friends in my own home than what the 2e seems to be becoming. If that means I never attend a tourney or organised event or even have a PUG with a random guy, then so be it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Well, Alessio is ex-GW, they are experts at making changes just for the sake of making changes. I don't have a KoW army, so I'm theoretically unaffected, but stat and cost changes across the board mean that the game isn't getting any closer to being balanced, they just cleared the board and started again from zero with no reference points.

So is Ronnie and I believe a chunk of their staff. (Not to mention the key players at Warlord, etc etc.) Ex-GW doesn't mean bad in and of itself, but hopefully a more inclusive and less dismissive attitude to playtesters and the community can become a thing, rather then the dismissive attitude that Alessio seems to have taken here.

Like with every game, wait for the 2nd Edition before you Start playing it
Always

 kodos wrote:
Like with every game, wait for the 2nd Edition before you Start playing it
Always

j

I did. It was the 2012 edition

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Well, Alessio is ex-GW, they are experts at making changes just for the sake of making changes. I don't have a KoW army, so I'm theoretically unaffected, but stat and cost changes across the board mean that the game isn't getting any closer to being balanced, they just cleared the board and started again from zero with no reference points.

Here is a long post that explains the re-pointing of everything:

https://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-2-beta/218840-armylists-an-explanation-of-points-values

Basically, we were given a unit, with a fixed statline, and a cost of 100 points, with a statement that this could not be changed and was the new immutable baseline and that all other units in the game should be re-pointed based on that.

And that this needed to be done within a deadline of one week.

Please do playtest the beta as much as possible in the next 3 weeks, while a lot of work and effort was put into the re-pointing by the RC, one week was nowhere near enough time (and not enough to get playtest games in). That's where the community comes in.

All feedback will be taken seriously and posted directly to Mantic.

Rather amusingly most of the public feedback we've had so far is suggesting ideas that the RC wanted and suggested anyway, so I think we're on the ball with it.

It does seem like there are an awful lot of changes from what we were initially told were going to be minor changes to the rule set. Had no idea that a lot of unit costs and stat lines would change.

That said thank you to all of those on the RC for what must have been (and still is one assumes) a time consuming and difficult process all in the name of the love of the game. Here is hoping that the work makes KOW a better game.