Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What's actually rather cool is Ronnie is actively replying on Facebook...

Ronnie Renton - Richard Heath I gave seen you email. I an sorry you feel misled but I don't think we could have been any clearer. These are the 'free to try' rules with all the rules from the game. The army lists have everything in the army sets plus extra bits and any obvious units that people normally have in other armies. Magic items are always eirher excluded from the give aways or a little taster is put in. I think throughout we have been saying 'Try it' with free rules and this is that. We are keeping some of new units back for the full launch next month.

Ronnie Renton - All the army lists will be complete in both the hardback and soft back books. In the coming weeks we will be showing off all the new units and featuring each army so we can keep up the focus. We have always has leave selected bits out of the free downloads otherwise the retailers refuse to stock the book. It has always been a balancing act between offering enough to give the game a try and introduce new people and not for you to have to buy the book until you know it is a purchase you want to make.

Ronnie Renton - So Richard Heath will everything be free - no. Will the rules be free - yes. Will all the armies have all their core units and a heap of colourful units in an army list to download for free. Yes. Will you have to buy the book to try it - nope. But do I want you to have reason to buy the book if you like the game - yes. I need that to be the case to be able to keep making more. I try to give as much as it is possible to give while still having bits saved for the print of paid for download edition.

Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.

Ronnie Renton - And more is coming so 5hanks for being patient.

 Alex C wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
That makes this decision even more...odd.

Maybe the full rules will come after the physical release? Or a boat has been missed.

Doubt it.

They want you to buy their book.

Another case of Mantic saying one thing and doing another.

To be fair I think the sales of the Fantasy miniatures are probably a small percentage of their income, so they have to make money some way. This is giving the doubters some very obvious ammunition though. Is there something up with the water in Nottingham?

At least it is only £10 for the book and all the army lists, much better than when the hardback was the only option.

Actually I'm fine with how this has been done.

Do you have all the rules you need to play the game? Yes

Do you have a large selection of units to try out the game? Yes

Did you enjoy playing the game with the sample lists?
If yes then the full rulebook with army list will be available to buy soon at a very reasonable price.
If no then you can move on without it costing you a penny.

Yes I would've preferred everything to be online for free I suppose.

I'm not sure this is so unwise. It's annoying, but I'm guessing they included the stuff there is currently models for in the Mantic store.

I get that the argument is that Mantic will lose customers who would switch from WFB to KOW, but if Mantic gives away all the rules and the players use their old models, is that really a customer?

 Polonius wrote:
I get that the argument is that Mantic will lose customers who would switch from WFB to KOW, but if Mantic gives away all the rules and the players use their old models, is that really a customer?

Mantic needs players, not just customers. They're selling a game that can only be played in local multiplayer, which means that they need sufficient density of KoW players that their paying customers can find somebody to play against to not feel like they've been sold a lemon. Even somebody who buys no Mantic rules and no Mantic models is still increasing the value of the rules and models Mantic does sell, by giving Mantic's paying customers the opportunity to actually use the stuff they buy.

I'm getting fed up with this bs from mantic regarding the way in which they treat their customers. The full rules were promised today to ks backers and yet again like the warpath rules we have to pay beasts of war for acess! Is this really the path they want to go down? I'm massively disappoint In them and will question backing any ks in future

Once again the full PDF for KS backer IS coming in a week or two according to todays update....

 edlowe wrote:
I'm getting fed up with this bs from mantic regarding the way in which they treat their customers. The full rules were promised today to ks backers and yet again like the warpath rules we have to pay beasts of war for acess! Is this really the path they want to go down? I'm massively disappoint In them and will question backing any ks in future

the rules were up on mantic's page, with no problems for me.

Well it's a bummer, no doubt. I had already preordered the rulebook set (hardback, paperback, and tokens bundle) but it won't arrive until August. I hope one of you backers will be kind enough to share the "real" pdf with me given that but it does seem like a real missed opportunity.

I can see the reasoning... but unfortunately their talk / build up / propoganda was "free rules". Right now, it's all too easy for folks to point to the fact that the AoS rules are, in fact, free...

At least Ronnie admitted it, but this was their own doing:

Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.

It definitely gives the impression of a shell game / bait and switch - "You thought we said free rules? We meant, free teasers!". Like I said, I already preordered the rulebook - did so the night AoS released, in fact, but was really looking forward to this reveal they had hyped up. Definite missed opportunity to shine here!

Edit: Edlowe, are you saying the full rules are up on Beasts of War (for paying members) or something?

BoW have the same link for the free rules but they have the Forces of The Abyss army list for backstagers only

http://www.beastsofwar.com/fantasy/download-kings-war-2nd-edition-rules-free/

 RiTides wrote:
Well it's a bummer, no doubt. I had already preordered the rulebook set (hardback, paperback, and tokens bundle) but it won't arrive until August. I hope one of you backers will be kind enough to share the "real" pdf with me given that but it does seem like a real missed opportunity.

I can see the reasoning... but unfortunately their talk / build up / propoganda was "free rules". Right now, it's all too easy for folks to point to the fact that the AoS rules are, in fact, free...

At least Ronnie admitted it, but this was their own doing:

Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.

It definitely gives the impression of a shell game / bait and switch - "You thought we said free rules? We meant, free teasers!". Like I said, I already preordered the rulebook - did so the night AoS released, in fact, but was really looking forward to this reveal they had hyped up. Definite missed opportunity to shine here!

Edit: Edlowe, are you saying the full rules are up on Beasts of War (for paying members) or something?

Not full rules but beasts of war backers are getting the full abysal list which ks backers and general public won't get for weeks.

the ks backers were promised the full rulebook today plus full lists.

instead the most complete set of rules and lists is only available to backstage backers of beasts of war, at least for a couple of weeks.

maybe im ranting a bit too much but its damn annoying.

Posted on facebook.

Ronnie Renton hi, sorry if i have upset anyone. We have clearly miscommunicated about these free rules. All the rules (moving and shooting and fighting, nerve) are ALL there. There are the main untis and few elites for each army, so everyone can give the rules a go with whatever army they have - be it a new mantic army set or an existing one. These are streamlined so new people trying the game can take a few units and give the game a go. a 'try before you have to buy' idea. In time these army lists will be upgraded with cool new units that we will unveil over the next few weeks up to the actual book/game launch - and even then we'll keep a few suprises so people can be excited by the book once they get it.

I'd really like to see the online lists become complete at some point.

 dragqueeninspace wrote:

Posted on facebook.

Ronnie Renton hi, sorry if i have upset anyone. We have clearly miscommunicated about these free rules. All the rules (moving and shooting and fighting, nerve) are ALL there. There are the main untis and few elites for each army, so everyone can give the rules a go with whatever army they have - be it a new mantic army set or an existing one. These are streamlined so new people trying the game can take a few units and give the game a go. a 'try before you have to buy' idea. In time these army lists will be upgraded with cool new units that we will unveil over the next few weeks up to the actual book/game launch - and even then we'll keep a few suprises so people can be excited by the book once they get it.

I'd really like to see the online lists become complete at some point.

ok wish they had let backers know this was the case and not state it would be a full pdf rulebook released today

Also I'm stil, dead against this idea of beasts of war getting the rules before backers for the abyssal army, I didn't like it when they did it for warpath and I still think it's shady now.

Well, this is a bit annoying....

Hey, i'm in this kickstarter for a couple hundred bucks, and I'm not getting full rules either.

I don't like the BoW thing if the KS backers haven't seen it yet.

 mattjgilbert wrote:
I don't like the BoW thing if the KS backers haven't seen it yet.

Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.

Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.

 edlowe wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
I don't like the BoW thing if the KS backers haven't seen it yet.

Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.

Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.

yeah in Kickstarter Update 45

Today the free ‘give it a try’ Kings of War second edition rules have gone live on our website. You can download them here.
These core rules and sample Forces Lists are designed to let people try the rules. Please share them around!
There will be a complete rulebook as a PDF sent to you guys in the next couple of weeks. Nobody else will be able to get this full version digitally for free.
Your download will contain all of the rules, including magical artefacts and all eleven forces lists, plus art, photography, background and more.

I was gonna get the printed rulebook, but I was really expecting the full PDF too.. oh well :/

a fairly nice post by Ronnie, grammar and spelling errors and all:

Ronnie Renton - Chris - that explains a lot. Genuinely that people expected all of it for free never crossed our minds. I can see why people wer upset about the shorter army lsits but that was part of our plan for the run in to launch and just a misunderstanding. However, I can see why you feel misled. We spent a lot of time when we first did this 5 years ago explaining that these were the rules - and they still are - they are all the rules. However they are not all the background, all the lists, all the magic items. The are 'just' the rules and some beginning to mid size force lists. I am really sorry that it appeared we were giving it all away. It has just been that way foir so long we assumed everyone knew what we meant - clearly we got that wrong. That said if you print these rules and the army lists up there you will all be able to play the game. You'll be able to get a flavour for it - and these rules would certainly see you through your first 3 or 4 games as a group before soemone might need to spring for a rulebook - which is only £10 or $20. I am genuinely sorry you have been supporting us and feel we have miseld you, that was never the intention and I apologise.

 judgedoug wrote:

 edlowe wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
I don't like the BoW thing if the KS backers haven't seen it yet.

Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.

Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.

yeah in Kickstarter Update 45

Today the free ‘give it a try’ Kings of War second edition rules have gone live on our website. You can download them here.
These core rules and sample Forces Lists are designed to let people try the rules. Please share them around!
There will be a complete rulebook as a PDF sent to you guys in the next couple of weeks. Nobody else will be able to get this full version digitally for free.
Your download will contain all of the rules, including magical artefacts and all eleven forces lists, plus art, photography, background and more.

yeah, I wanted to make sure there were no more 'misunderstandings' over what they saying

more from Facebook

Ronnie Renton - and on your previous post - yeh clearly we got the message wrong. We assumed (i know!!!) that people knew what we meant - like the old rule set, but we should have been more clear what we meant by the free rules, and the purpose of those rules. we will make sure we are more clear next time so we don't build false expecations. thanks for bringing it up, and although we didn't get you exactly what you wanted hope there is enough there to keep you going for now.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Well look what showed up in my inbox...

For some reason, I want to do a model of a dwarf bro-fisting with the greater obsidian golem....

The Auld Grump

You know... i'm in for $800 on the KS, and even helped Mantic on... oh... three projects now. Even I feel a little blind-sided.

I told Ronnie all week, that I was running KoW events this weekend, for the GAME'S benefit... and was assured the rules would be in my hands to do so.

Well... that was "almost" the case. :-p

Amazing game, no question there, and still the best game I have played in years... but this roll-out isn't exactly seamless.

 edlowe wrote:

 mattjgilbert wrote:
I don't like the BoW thing if the KS backers haven't seen it yet.

Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.

Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.

I suspect it'll be addressed asap next week.

That'd be good - there was a lot of momentum here and it'd be a shame to lose it over such a fumble. When even their most diehard fans (or at least, the vast majority) were expecting the full lists to be posted, they obviously goofed up (I didn't see anyone post that the army lists would not be complete, which I think is what really gets people because they can't plan an army now!).

I understand leaving out a few things like magic items, but come on, leaving out a lot of monsters / etc from each army list is really going to make it hard for people to get going playing this game - who wants to play without the cool stuff?

Still stoked for the game but I hope they address this ASAP!

I think one of the biggest issues is the number of people saying "why have you removed xxx unit". Even after the lists have been released, the communication hasn't been clear enough for people to understand that they're not complete units.

As has already been addressed, it seems as though this was a slight slip-up on Mantic's behalf, and that they are genuinely sorry.

I would think that there is nothing wrong with releasing a taster set of rules to try out - the current free rules alone are enough for hours of gaming time. Certainly, this could have been made clearer initially.

I personally don't feel as if I have been misled in any way - I was originally expecting nothing, and have received something (good).

I can understand the argument with many that they would purchase the rules regardless of being freely available online or otherwise, and they do not lie - however, many would not do the same. This is obviously a sizeable investment for Mantic, and I will certainly support them with my purchase.

Mantic have been open that the rules would be similar to the free rules booklet from first ed throughout. Some people wanted the full rules and lists, and feel it's someone else's fault and not their own expectations.

For reference, this was the dwarf list from the first ed free booklet:



Three units and two warengines. The newly released free lists have 14 units, machines and heroes and the core rules allow people to play the game.

I seriously wonder how some people cope with the disappointment they must every day of their lives.