Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 pancakeonions wrote:
What's this about the 2 player starter set having "reduced" warbands? They just dropped the scenery and added the second warband right? I can't find where they say what's been dropped.

Update specified that the resin miniatures would not be included in the 2-player warbands, only the PVC ones.

Tonhel wrote:

It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.

Is it, or is it just a method to get stealth KoW money for some armies that were written up several years ago and are either going to be finally fleshed out with non-gakk kits or finally started (respectively)?

That it didn't even occur to them to offer it as a two player game suggests to me that it's a kickstarter for +2 KoW armies. As does the update that talks about getting basic scenario ideas from backers.

Meanwhile, from Mantic themselves, you can drop $80 on the KoW Battle of the Glades starter box and get 80 hard plastic minis, 2 metal characters, and the rulebook.

This isn't doing it for me.

Curious how this'll compare to Privateer's Company of Iron, which aims to be a similar squad based skirmish boxed set (with TWO warbands) for roughly the same price, and just as expandable.

Of course Privateer also gets plenty of grief for repeated sculpts at such for small scale battles...

Voss wrote:

Is it, or is it just a method to get stealth KoW money for some armies that were written up several years ago and are either going to be finally fleshed out with non-gakk kits or finally started (respectively)?

That it didn't even occur to them to offer it as a two player game suggests to me that it's a kickstarter for +2 KoW armies. As does the update that talks about getting basic scenario ideas from backers.

While I think the rules author, Matt, is treating this like a real project, Mantic did already use a new game (DBX) as just really, really fancy throw-away packaging for new DBO teams in the past. Wouldn't put it past them.

Even though this might fund in a day or two it's still gonna be disappointing to mantic, I think at least five of their latest KS has funded on the first day. So they pulling the plug on this project is getting more and more likely I say.

Question is how they are gonna make this more appealing for the re-launch. As a mantic fan I dont have any problem with pledging early and wait for the value to come in with the stretchgoals, but there doesn't seem to be enough of people like me out there

Mantic won't pull the plug they'll sweeten the deal to get backers in they've had to do it several times before although normally during a mid campaign back slide not at the start.

If this doesn't cross the line today it won't over the weekend and by Monday people might start pulling/reducing pledges because it hasn't funded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

For those asking about a rulebook, tokens and dice-only option - we're planning to add that today. It'll be an optional extra. We're taking on board the suggestions and comments.
In the meantime, anyone planning on playing the alpha this weekend? What warband are you taking for a spin?

Might be the best option at this point.

Nothing to tempt me yet. A rulebook option may do to be frank, but the more I think about it, the more "meh" I am becoming.

I get that the Nameless is a faction that appeals to a lot of people but gribblies have never been my thing, and the Basileans are not to my taste either (I did start a faction for KoW, but got a bit bored with them).

Maybe if I'd played more KoW recently, but TBH I'm just not feeling it at the moment. Ho hum. Once you have to start finding excuses to convince yourself you want the game, I guess its best to stop! If it gets funded then I'll consider it when it launches at retail. If it doesn't fund, or doesn't launch big at retail (like DBX didn't), then I won't have missed out anyway.

The core error is possibly the structure itself at this point - having a price point which factors in "it will hit $500k and have loads of goodies in it so we need to make it fairly expensive" as something guaranteed.

It isn't a guarantee anymore, especially if you can't show value at the start and flounder, Kickstarter will wreck you and recovering from that takes way more effort than getting it right the first time, its why we so so many rebooted kickstarters.

Kickstarter has changed a lot over the last 2 years, in that patience levels have trended towards zero, loads of kickstarters out there all the time, people have 5-6 that they're still waiting to receive, many others that they got and never played and something has to be really good or have very wide appeal to compete. Dungeon Saga and Terrain Crate hit the wide appeal sweet spot. Walking Dead was always going to be a guaranteed hit with the IP and ruleset that absolutely nailed it.

Mantic possibly need to consider alternate approaches, such as the one used in the recent Korra boardgame KS by IDW (and maybe others, I haven't been looking at many kickstarters lately): where the value is there from the start, and the bonus content is revealed slowly throughout the campaign to keep people excited, I backed it and it was awesome, $65 base pledge and all 7 team expansions thrown in for free as stretch goals, only one $30 add-on which I went for because I was happy with the brilliant value in the core pledge:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/idwgames/the-legend-of-korra-pro-bending-arena

15 stretch goals, silhouetted out, it works better than expected because it makes full use of the day 1 traffic surge by showing the full value of what you're getting from the start, eliminating any early bad vibes about it lacking value.

There wouldn't be this debate if there were 15 guaranteed stretch goals hinting at 30-40 bonus minis (probably what Mantic has planned for and factored into the $85 price point) silhouetted out with daily reveals, it would have hit $100k already.

As it is, this one will probably get the kitchen sink thrown at it in terms of freebies to get it back on track... which might end up working out well for backers.

 Zethnar wrote:
I think you're getting a bit excited there about spending way too much money on 20 miniatures of questionable quality from Mantic. Offering the two warbands at a reduced capacity was possibly not the smartest move they ever made, as it is neither the 1 warband pledge level nor the 2 warband pledge level is really worth the money they are asking. The big complaint was honestly not that there was no 2 player starter set, anyone with half a brain could add the second warband to their pledge and get enough bits to play with both factions, the issue was that $130 to get both factions and the rulebook, plus shipping, is a ridiculous price to ask for what they're offering.

I think the operative qualifier is "anyone with half a brain" - which unfortunately has been an alarmingly low number of people based on the Facebook and Kickstarter comments.

 Zethnar wrote:
As for an $85 pledge containing less than a $130 pledge, I think the expectation most people had was that they would take out all of the terrain that no-one wanted and include the second warband. Getting cut-back warbands that may not even be rules-legal is kind of a gakky compromise. I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands.

Wait, what? Are you serious? Or are you being facetious? We just got through talking about how anyone with half a brain could pledge 85 + 45 = 130 (" I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands").
I thought this was basic logic here. Removing a finite value item (the terrain) and replacing it with a variable value item (a warband with upwards of infinite free stretch goal models) would be a fething stupid move on Mantic's part. I literally cannot imagine the thought processes of someone whose expectation would be that...

The move that Mantic made makes perfect sense - a cut down 2 player starter that is far cheaper than a normal starter plus an extra warband. But people are somehow... incapable... of understanding that when you pay less... you get less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Do you think $130 is a competitive price for a 'standard' starter set? Honestly asking, because I know my own perceptions are locked in an old man grumpus version of c2000 pricing. To me, that feels like an instant no deal.

I'll be spending 40 bucks on the hard plastics for sure. I still want those Basilean characters...although I don't want to spend $85 because there is no $45 option.

The $85 two player starter is a no go for me because they dropped the most exciting minis from each faction. I guess I'm a bad gamer, but I just don't value the rules at all.

Bob, I'm not locked into any mode of objective value thinking. You could tell me I could get 5000 miniatures for $130 and I would not bite if they were some tin flat looking garbage. Back in the heady days of 2013 with Kickstarters tempting us with loads of gakky pvc that we got late and mispacked and shoved into boxes into our closets never to be seen again, yes, I would want to see a bucketful of miniatures for a nickel. But I realized I don't belong on The Miniatures Page where old grognards attempt to play indecipherable rulesets using a bucket of army men painted with Humbrol glossy enamels.

Several pages ago I was horribly critical of the previews they were showing. The rules looked grade-A dumb. Then this Kickstarter launched, I read the Alpha rules, I changed my opinion entirely, and pledged.

All that a single person needs to play is a warband. I don't understand this NEED for a 2 player starter set full of minis for a faction that will just be shoved into a closet. (I'm looking at you, Basileans), but I understand the desire.

So the rules sold it for me - Mantic has traditionally made really fething good rulesets, these Alpha rules look pretty fun, despite all of my original trepdiations.. so I'm in on this one, and based on the Star Saga and Walking Dead models then I feel the Aybssals might actually look good.

If I wanted a giant pile of gakky miniatures for super cheap I'll send an email to Prince August to get 80 Warzone plastics for 20 bucks.

Rulebook and dice pledge.

Upped to $30

See if this does the job

Good move. This is how it should have been from the start. I know having just 1 pledge level is good for making fulfillment easier, when it comes to a game like this people want more options. It's not a boxed game with everything included. Hopefully this will get things moving now.

They also added 20$ warband addons for the armies they have miniatures for

...EXCEPT for Salamanders.

Not that I need any more, but it's always the reptile races that end up getting shunned and persecuted on the table.

People always gotta be all up and rolling better than them...

Salamanders are available, you have them in the Forces of Nature Warband, so they will get rules.

I suppose that extended rules for other entries like the ghekko will probably come later when they will have models for them, same for other factions like the league of Rhordia.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also they didn't include the abyssal eitheir despite them already having rules in the alpha version, and Mantic said when this was remarked that they had something special planned for them, so maybe those listed are only for the initial release with a supplement already planned ?

I suspect that a lot of the Uncharted Empires armies will come as PDF additions, if at all.

Confirmation that Salamanders and other factions from Uncharted Empires not already listed *will* get a list, they just won't be included in the printed initial book at release but will be made available as PDF later (and maybe printed later in a supplement I suppose ?)

Mantic on KS wrote:
(...) there will be lists for existing factions available from launch (similar to those $20 warbands shown in the update) so players can create a warband and use them in Vanguard. We will make the ones not available in the book (the remaining Uncharted Empires ones) available from the Mantic website

 judgedoug wrote:
Wait, what? Are you serious? Or are you being facetious? We just got through talking about how anyone with half a brain could pledge 85 + 45 = 130 (" I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands").
I thought this was basic logic here. Removing a finite value item (the terrain) and replacing it with a variable value item (a warband with upwards of infinite free stretch goal models) would be a fething stupid move on Mantic's part. I literally cannot imagine the thought processes of someone whose expectation would be that...

The move that Mantic made makes perfect sense - a cut down 2 player starter that is far cheaper than a normal starter plus an extra warband. But people are somehow... incapable... of understanding that when you pay less... you get less.

Yes, I am serious. A $100 starter set with two full warbands probably would have worked for everyone. It still wouldn't have been great value mind you, but it would feel a bit less like Mantic was trying to rip us off. This has been mentioned multiple times, but $130 is simply too much for what they are offering. It is not just 'a bit more' than $85, which itself is too much to charge for a handful of PVC miniatures, it's half again as much as a core pledge. If you are willing to spend $85 on 16 sub-standard PVC minis (or an extra $45 for those 4 resins and cheap scatter terrain) then more power to you, but as it turns out a lot of people aren't interested in being overcharged for crap plastic.

It's all well and good to talk about the value of stretch goals, but I don't see any of them unlocked so far, and at the rate the kickstarter is going I don't suspect that too many of them are going to be unlocked at the close of the funding period either. The pledges Mantic offer need to be worth the money right off the bat, this strategy of pre-charging for the stretch goals clearly isn't going to work for them anymore.

 judgedoug wrote:
All that a single person needs to play is a warband. I don't understand this NEED for a 2 player starter set full of minis for a faction that will just be shoved into a closet.

I didn't realise the game supported solo play using only one warband.

The rulebook only pledge was enough to get me to join in.

jtrowell wrote:
Confirmation that Salamanders and other factions from Uncharted Empires not already listed *will* get a list, they just won't be included in the printed initial book at release but will be made available as PDF later (and maybe printed later in a supplement I suppose ?)

Mantic on KS wrote:
(...) there will be lists for existing factions available from launch (similar to those $20 warbands shown in the update) so players can create a warband and use them in Vanguard. We will make the ones not available in the book (the remaining Uncharted Empires ones) available from the Mantic website

But keep a few grains of salt handy. I'm still waiting for my Mars Attacks lists for Deadzone 2 and Warpath.

 Maccwar wrote:
The rulebook only pledge was enough to get me to join in.

To be fair, i'm extremely tempted to drop DOWN to that level... so it is a mixed blessing. :-p

I've backed several other Mantic KickStarters but I've just cancelled my pledge for this one. I'm still waiting on Warpath vehicles 2 years after the KS ended.

Vanguard sounded interesting and I thought, for once, Mantic would have it ready to go. Shadespire and Company of Iron have just arrived and can be played right now. Why wait for a minimum of 1 year for a ruleset that could be released early in the new year if they'd just playtest it? I don't want to fund yet another release of miniatures. In the case of Basilean MaA it's a re-release with terrible Nexo Knight shields. After looking at what was on offer for the standard reward and what poor value it represented I decided to give it a miss. I refuse to pay for their stretch goals in advance anymore. If it ever makes it to retail I'll look at it then.

Ruins terrain sneak peak from the newsletter



Corner connectors look good a lot more natural than the Sci-Fi ones and very like the Mordheim ones

 Zethnar wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
All that a single person needs to play is a warband. I don't understand this NEED for a 2 player starter set full of minis for a faction that will just be shoved into a closet.

I didn't realise the game supported solo play using only one warband.

I think I have found the disconnect in our conversation. It seems that for you a game is wholly unplayable unless there is a 2 player starter set.

I think the real issue isn't that there wasn't a two player set, as obviously it was easy to add the other warband and have a two player set. The problem was that the kickstarter as a whole is a terrible value.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Maccwar wrote:
The rulebook only pledge was enough to get me to join in.

To be fair, i'm extremely tempted to drop DOWN to that level... so it is a mixed blessing. :-p

I'd like to grab a base pledge but neither warband is very appealing to me. The Nightstalker one is more interesting but I'm not sure about the coherency of the art direction for that faction. The warband seems to want to be gribbly monsters from the nightmare realm which is cool with me but I don't understand how the scarecrows fit in with that. They look like actual animated scarecrows armed with farming implements and with evil smoke appendages, that's way too campy for the other monsters that are more of the PG-13 version of CMON's The Others. If I got the Nightstalker warband I feel like I'd want to try to pick up a sprue or two of Tyranid 'gaunts off Ebay and kitbash them. I like the completeness of the $85 base pledge so I'll wait and see what gets unlocked/added before deciding.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I think the real issue isn't that there wasn't a two player set, as obviously it was easy to add the other warband and have a two player set. The problem was that the kickstarter as a whole is a terrible value.

Now this I can agree on.

There's three ways to do a Kickstarter.

The first: be truthful about the money you need. Core funding goal will be very, very high. There won't be many stretch goal/freebies because you plan to have a single production wave and get everything done in the tightest budget and best overall value to the backer, with high quality components.
IT WILL FAIL.

The second: don't be truthful about the money you need. Core funding goal is relatively low. Your "stretch goals" will be stuff you plan on producing anyway, so that when the Kickstarter eventually slows down you can reduce the amount of money needed between each stretch goal. In order to appease the most number of backers, you'll create a million pledge levels and a trillion add-ons. Because of the overpromising, you don't have the budget for resculpts or retools. Delays will run rampant and you'll have to ship in two waves. But you need to release to retail first to pay for the second wave shipping. IT WILL SUCCEED, SORT OF.

The third: straight up lie about the money you need. Core funding goal is next to nothing. You get an absurd amount of boardgame minis for your pledge. Eventually the KS will make it's "real" funding goal (approximately twenty to fifty times the goal you set) because people are excited about getting such tremendous "value" for their money. IT WILL BE A HUGE SUCCESS. Giant box of mediocre minis arrives very late with rules that list the family dog as a playtester. After a frustrating attempt to play the game, it goes into the closet along with a promise to never do another Kickstarter like that again. Repeat every three months.

Mantic is the second type.

I like the look of the renders so I'm in for both warbands at this point. It's a shame that the warbands are so obviously incomplete, as part of Mantic's need to have "false" stretch goals. I hope the KS heats up over the weekend so that the basic pledge levels/add on prices come up to their actual value. Otherwise, the bottom may fall out.

 Zethnar wrote:
I can't believe there are people in the comments section there not only defending the choice of not having a 2 player starter set as an option, but saying "If you don't like it then don't pledge".
Why on earth would you tell someone not to back a kickstarter you want to see succeed?

There are always star fethers who will tell (any) KS creator that they can do no wrong. Please like me!

Lack of value, redundant terrain, potential issues with (what are they made of?) models and of course, no Aussie-friendly shipping option ("it's too hard" is a weaksauce argument when most anyone else can do it) makes this unappealing.

Add to that the number of competing games and models right now that are available right now at retail, not to mention some rather tasty stuff that's about to release - and Black Friday around the corner that I need to save some cash for, with Christmas around the following corner - and it simply makes this product even less appealing when it comes to competing for my November 2017 dollars. It might well be worth grabbing the rules & dice when it's released, via retail. I can't imaging it being much more expensive - if at all - than backing plus Mantic's shipping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyr13 wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.
It really looks like what Spartan Games did with Firestorm Armada - very low value, only high pledges and trying desperatly to show things so that lots of people get their wallet.
I'm not touching this one. If it succeeds, I'm fine with waiting what the real product will be once it hits the shops. And I have no doubt it will be in the shops while still on the way of delivery for the gullible backers...

I wouldnt say that, actually. To me, it looks like their usual KS stuff. Problem is, theyve always banked on rushing through their stretchgoals, with limited value from the get-go. With KS fatigue a widespread thing, and Mantocs track record being at least somewhat dubious, their tactic just doesnt work anymore. DS made them pretty well known, but when the game itself left so much to be desired... that put loads of people off of backing their games. So yeah. Not really getting cash-grab vibes here, just them using a tactic that has been less and less effective recently
:/

I think Tyr is right on the money here. We've had endless arguments over the years about "fake stretch goals" and core pledges being priced with the additional value of many stretch goals incorporated into them - the whole "sure, it looks average now, but just wait!" thing. I'm not really interested in the offering as I've stated before, but I don't think it's a cynical cash grab. No more than any other Mantic KS of the past few years, anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NTRabbit wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.

If I had a dollar for every time someone incorrectly speculated that in a Mantic KS thread on dakka, I wouldn't need to be looking through the job ads.

True. You'd have starved to death long ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:

Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.

Doug, mate. You know I like you and we get on pretty well. But you've got to be careful. When you get on a horse that high, there's a real risk of hurting yourself when you fall.

While I don't get to play nearly as often as I'd like, and spend way more hobby time painting and blogging and even forum-ing than actually gaming due to work, free time availability and the availability of other humans... I for one, do indeed back up all my talk on what I'm willing to spend money on pretty fething well.


Not that I've been complaining all that much about this one, but hey.

Eh looks like a good 85 dollar value to me. I also since I have friends I don't need a 2 player starter, 2 of them have already backed it as well.

I actually don't like 2 player starters cause I always have to go through the trouble of selling the second half which yes might save me money but the money/time ratio is never worth it.