[Kings of War] Mantic Fantasy News & Rumors

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**Tonhel**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
This is far from an irredeemable situation, but I think the KS could stand to see a bit of a remix. The small model-count natural for this kind of game conflicts with the value proposition most people expect these days, even from smaller companies.

Again think about the diversity and volume of models, etc... in Joan of Arc right now.

As such I don't think Mantic can do their usual "start with a mediocre deal, but grow into a terrific one"

The small model-count should also mean that each model in the warband should have been unique. I find it a very strange decision to add duplicates for such small warbands. I know that they are probably planning to add more diverse models as a stretch goal, but the starting warbands should have been unique from the start.

**jtrowell**

Necros wrote:
I'm in for now, but I don't know if I'll stick around. Sculpts look good but I feel like this was a bit rushed and needs to be fleshed out a lot more. Rules looked good, but when there are so many different factions in KOW, I'm kinda surprised there's only 2 here. They really should have started off with at least 4, and showed teasers for warbands from others too. I'm sure they have plans for other factions in stretch goals, but it feels like there's just not enough meat to sink your teeth into just yet.

Note that the alpha rules already include the rules for 4 factions, and they are neitheir the basilean nor the nightstalkers, so that's at least 6 factions for release, and I expect to see probably much more by then.

I suppose that the basilean and nightalker are not in the beta test to appease retailers that can be reluctant to store a game when the full rules are already available to the public from a beta test.

**NTRabbit**

Sarouan wrote:
I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.

If I had a dollar for every time someone incorrectly speculated that in a Mantic KS thread on dakka, I wouldn't need to be looking through the job ads.

**jorny**

The new Basilean renders looks ok at a first glance, but why oh why did they have to keep two of the worst design elements? The weird unattatched sleeves on the sisters and the incredibly stupid shields on the men at arms? With a shield swap the men at arms could become real nice heavy infantry.

**Sarouan**

Trouble is that it's again another picture throwed like this, as if it was rushed to satisfy the growling crowd.

For example, we don't know if the men at arms are designed to be equiped with only spears or if there will be options for other weapons, like crossbows.

It's really weird indeed to have duplicate models for a skirmish game. That's why this project smell funny to me. It's like they're trying to launch this project right now before the end of the year, and they can't afford to wait any further. That's why I feel it's more a cash grab : the duration is also very short, only 15 days. That's not the same feeling than the previous projects.

They built the Hype clearly so that they can gather a lot of money quickly at the beginning. They are counting on their fan base to support them blindly. We'll see in the end if that will be enough, this time.

**NTRabbit**

Men at Arms are in the KoW rulebook, they are a known quantity replacing an old sculpt - they come with sword and shield, or spear and shield. I'm betting they'll also be as slightly multipose as any of the other hard plastic sprue line infantry Mantic has made, which is to say not completely, but enough to be avoid overwhelming sameness, but still fit together on a tray without playing arm puzzles.

The Men at Arms Sergeants being monopose single sculpt BGP is a different issue.

You're trying really hard to make this something that it isn't.

**Maccwar**

Sarouan wrote:
It's like they're trying to launch this project right now before the end of the year, and they can't afford to wait any further. That's why I feel it's more a cash grab : the duration is also very short, only 15 days. That's not the same feeling than the previous projects.

Not a cash grab. I was speaking with Matt Gilbert at the weekend and he informed me that Kickstarter themselves are recommending shorter campaign durations these days. There is also a lot of congestion on KS right now and gamers being fickle beasts can often be distracted by new campaign starting up taking their cash with them.

The Vanguard campaign's aims are 1) to launch a new game and 2) to fund some nice new miniatures which will also be useful in Kings of War. Given the latter I would expect alternate poses to crop up in the stretch goals.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Previous Mantic projects have recently had really, really bad times in the doldrums of mid KS slump with mantic having to try hard to stop mass exodus

so a short campaign helps prevent that

as to having to launch now that may well be the case if they've got a pastics manufacturing slot booked with the possibility to expand it if the KS goes well,

they've already had to switch plastic production to a new supplier so keeping to the slots they book with them is going to be crucial to keep their standing with them

**Mymearan**

jorny wrote:
The new Basilean renders looks ok at a first glance, but why oh why did they have to keep two of the worst design elements? The weird unattatched sleeves on the sisters and the incredibly stupid shields on the men at arms? With a shield swap the men at arms could become real nice heavy infantry.

It’s a very strange decision. The men themselves look ok, but th shields look like LEGO shields, making the models look like cheap dollar store toys. I hope they’ll change them.

**Zywus**

Sarouan wrote:
Trouble is that it's again another picture throwed like this, as if it was rushed to satisfy the growling crowd.

For example, we don't know if the men at arms are designed to be equiped with only spears or if there will be options for other weapons, like crossbows.

The HIPS men-at-arms kit is a stretch-goal that hasn't been reached yet so I don't think it's weird that the sprue-layout hasn't been shown or even finalized yet.

It would presume options for both swords or spear. Maybe crossbows too, but I could se those being sold as metal or resin addons.

**judgedoug**

I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.

so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.

So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...

Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.

**Tonhel**

judgedoug wrote:

Spoiler:

I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.

so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.

So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...

Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.

**ulgurstasta**

Update 2

Ho! Vanguardians,

Seeing as we’re approaching the 24 hour mark and we’re edging ever closer to that funding goal, we thought we’d give a little sneak peek of the first stretch goals to whet your appetites.
HARD PLASTIC MEN AT ARMS

This is a big one - multi-part, multi-pose, hard plastic Men at Arms for the Basilean warband. These troops will add plenty of options to your warband choices and are extremely useful for those Group Actions. If you’ve played the alpha rules, you’ll know that Group Actions can play a vital part in Vanguard battles.

As a special bonus for hitting the funding goal we’ll be adding FIVE hard plastic Men at Arms to the Basilean Warband and the Two-player Set. Also, for those of you that play Kings of War and want to bolster your Basilean forces, we’ll be opening up a $20 regiment option, so you can grab 20 of these new miniatures for your army.

THE HORROR

After the hard plastic Men at Arms, it’s time to add something horrific to the Nightstalkers. The Horror was once a brave Stone Priest but now they’ve been twisted into this terrible creature! At $80,000 we’ll be adding two plastic Horrors to the Nightstalker warband and the two-player set.

SISTERHOOD SCOUT

To combat that terrible Horror, you might need some ranged options for the Basileans. At $85,000 we'll add two plastic Sisterhood Scouts to the Basilean warband and the two-player set.

HARD PLASTIC SCARECROWS

After all that we’ve got something else very exciting lined up for the Nightstalkers - it’s the hard-plastic, multi-part, multi-pose hard plastic Scarecrows (shame we’ve missed Halloween with these guys). Just like the Men at Arms, these will become the disposable grunts in your warband, led by the more powerful heroes.

We’ll add FIVE to the Nightstalkers warband and the two player set. Again, just like the Men at Arms, for those of you wanting to start a Nightstalkers army for Kings of War, we’ll be adding an $20 optional extra to get a regiment of 20 Scarecrows.

Also, we’ve been asking for your suggestions for potential scenarios in the comments. We’ve had some great ideas so far and if you’ve got any more we’d love to hear them.

Let's get through that funding goal and unlock more goodies for everyone! Onwards and upwards Vanguardians.

**judgedoug**

Tonhel wrote:
judgedoug wrote:

Spoiler:

I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.

so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.

So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...

Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.

It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.

Mantic's misstep was assuming not everyone would want both factions and that people who did could, you know, do the math, and add $45 to their pledge.

WOOPS

**Tonhel**

Yes, ofcourse you can add $45 to your pledge, but it is all in the presentation.

**judgedoug**

Tonhel wrote:
Yes, ofcourse you can add $45 to your pledge, but it is all in the presentation.

Sure, and they pivoted - like I said, that can be a good thing! - and now offer a cheap 2 player starter. But now the complaint is that $85 gives you less stuff than $130.

**.Mikes.**

Zethnar wrote:
Well I guess this kickstarter is going to die a slow and painful death.

It's barely more than 24 hours old and 80% funded. It'll do fine.

**Theophony**

.Mikes. wrote:
Zethnar wrote:
Well I guess this kickstarter is going to die a slow and painful death.

It's barely more than 24 hours old and 80% funded. It'll do fine.

They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.

**pancakeonions**

I am worried it won't do that well. It'll fund, limp along for a while, and Mantic will take note that their skirmish level, fantasy battle offering was not something that folks wanted.

This bums me out. This was the Mantic product I've been waiting for, and the rules looked fun. I'm now concerned that Mantic won't allocate the resources or energy for adequate playtesting and development. I sure wouldn't if my new KS offering was sputtering along this poorly.

Sigh.

**Necros**

I kinda feel like they should have done it more like a small campaign for just the printed rulebook with a PDF version free forever, and then had rules for making warbands out of all of the Kings of War factions where the idea is you use models from your KOW armies to build your warbands, rather than separate warband sets for Vanguard.

Then in the campaign could have models for special character warband leader types, who can also be used in your KOW armies. It could be a good way to get players into the larger wargame where they can start to collect and build up a bigger army around the warband they started with.

**BobtheInquisitor**

judgedoug wrote:
Tonhel wrote:
judgedoug wrote:

Spoiler:

I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.

so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.

So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...

Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.

It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.

Mantic's misstep was assuming not everyone would want both factions and that people who did could, you know, do the math, and add $45 to their pledge.

WOOPS

Do you think $130 is a competitive price for a 'standard' starter set? Honestly asking, because I know my own perceptions are locked in an old man grumpus version of c2000 pricing. To me, that feels like an instant no deal.

I'll be spending 40 bucks on the hard plastics for sure. I still want those Basilean characters...although I don't want to spend $85 because there is no $45 option.

The $85 two player starter is a no go for me because they dropped the most exciting minis from each faction. I guess I'm a bad gamer, but I just don't value the rules at all.

**lord_blackfang**

$130 is in the realm of a GW two player set with ~50 HIPS minis. Or a KoW mega army. It's a bit much to charge for a literal fistful of PVC.

**.Mikes.**

Theophony wrote:
They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.

Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.

Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.

**Tonhel**

.Mikes. wrote:
Theophony wrote:
They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.

Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.

Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.

Tell that to the recent Shieldwolf and TMS miniature kickstarters. Both funded succesfully, but still the creators cancelled it before the kickstarter ended. I don't think "just" funding is something Mantic will be happy with.

**.Mikes.**

Well let's see how it goes and stack your perception against what happens.

**DaveC**

827 backers 146 at $1 no reward (17.7%) even if all $1s upped to $85 now it still wouldn't meet it's funding target (it's close though $74,880 assuming all $1 are just $1)

**Theophony**

.Mikes. wrote:
Theophony wrote:
They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.

Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.

Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.

I haven’t watched any mantic KS very closely in a while (walking dead was the last I watched), but the last time they blew through stretch goals the stretch goal costs got dropped to $5,000 between stretches. They are no where in the league of GW or cmon.

**Zethnar**

judgedoug wrote:
I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.

so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.

So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...

Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.

I think you're getting a bit excited there about spending way too much money on 20 miniatures of questionable quality from Mantic. Offering the two warbands at a reduced capacity was possibly not the smartest move they ever made, as it is neither the 1 warband pledge level nor the 2 warband pledge level is really worth the money they are asking. The big complaint was honestly not that there was no 2 player starter set, anyone with half a brain could add the second warband to their pledge and get enough bits to play with both factions, the issue was that $130 to get both factions and the rulebook, plus shipping, is a ridiculous price to ask for what they're offering.

As for an $85 pledge containing less than a $130 pledge, I think the expectation most people had was that they would take out all of the terrain that no-one wanted and include the second warband. Getting cut-back warbands that may not even be rules-legal is kind of a gakky compromise. I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands.

The lesson Mantic needs to learn is that they need to offer a good value base pledge, not price their product with the expectation of paying for stretch goals.

.Mikes. wrote:
Zethnar wrote:
Well I guess this kickstarter is going to die a slow and painful death.

It's barely more than 24 hours old and 80% funded. It'll do fine.

It'll probably fund, but I can't see it doing the usual knock down a bunch of stretch goals and make the core pledge worth the money. It only takes till day 3 for most projects to hit the mid-campaign dry spell, and once that hits I seriously doubt we're going to see much movement in the funding total. I don't think the game barely funding is what anyone wants or was expecting out of this, and even if it doesn't cause people to drop their pledges, it won't help in attracting new backers.

**pancakeonions**

What's this about the 2 player starter set having "reduced" warbands? They just dropped the scenery and added the second warband right? I can't find where they say what's been dropped.

**Zethnar**

They've taken the resin hero figures from both factions out of the 2 player starter set. Compare the graphic on the starter set to the graphic for each of the warbands, the missing models are what's not in the box.

There's been some question as to whether you can still form a legal warband with what they're offering with only some vague responses from whoever is managing the kickstarter community but no definitive answer.