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 DaveC wrote:
From Mike today

"I'm exploring if we can make printed versions of the rules and cards available separately - that is certainly my preferred option, but ultimately it's not my decision.

I'll do all I can though - and keep you posted.

mike"

from that I'd read that it's up to CMoN as the publisher to decide what to do with the updated printed rules and I guess there will most likely be some sort of charge for it.

If Mike and Studio McVey truly stand behind a 'quality product' they would take a loss if nesseccary to insure all of us got the proper rules since they failed to properly playtest them before publishing them. That I think, would truly show that Studio McVey stood behind the product they put out. Anything less is a slap in the face. It is not CMONS fault that SM didn't bother to get proper playtesters/playtesting done, so I don't think CMON should be the ones eating the cost of new rulebooks printed in phase 2; SM should.

I won't promise it, but it will likely be the end of further Studio McVey purchases from me if they don't make this small thing right for all buyers.

I thought the Space Pirate miniature they're throwing in was the 'apology' for the delays and mishaps.

Yep, it was.

IdentifyZero, I think you're taking this rather personally... they messed up, they're doing something to fix it.

I'm hoping that they'll release the cards and book either as a freebie with the second wave or as a cheap purchase... absolute minimum that makes sense would be allowing the cards to be purchased.

They've already announced PDFs, which is already a fix, and with better presentation than the current FAQ. Not acknowledging or admitting a problem would have been your "slap in the face"- they're already well beyond that in my book, by actively attempting to fix it: for me, it's just a matter of how well they fix it... working towards a solution can only add points, as far as I see it.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yep, it was.

IdentifyZero, I think you're taking this rather personally... they messed up, they're doing something to fix it.

I'm hoping that they'll release the cards and book either as a freebie with the second wave or as a cheap purchase... absolute minimum that makes sense would be allowing the cards to be purchased.

They've already announced PDFs, which is already a fix, and with better presentation than the current FAQ. Not acknowledging or admitting a problem would have been your "slap in the face"- they're already well beyond that in my book, by actively attempting to fix it: for me, it's just a matter of how well they fix it... working towards a solution can only add points, as far as I see it.

Please learn the difference between taking something 'personally' and having an opinion. Trying to emotionalize someones argument in order to make it seem impotent is a common tactic in debate.

I paid for a product. The product turned out to be not up to the standards that were originally advertised.

I understand that many people like to take things lying down, they range from beta -> omega personalities. If you wish to accept someone selling you a pile of horse manure instead of what you bought and then wish to PAY AGAIN to get what you should have got in the first place? I'd love to do business with you. I like you though and I don't think there is any justification for anyone, including you to be defending Studio McVey.

How is it that when Games Workshop makes a mistake everyone is jumping down their throats? Yet when some other company blatantly screws up on something that would have been easy to prevent, people want to defend them.

Sedition Wars out of the box was not what Studio McVey advertised, plain and simple. There is a term for that, False Advertising.

Yeah, I think you are just going a little overboard. It wasn't false advertising. Should they give us a copy of the rules and new cards for free.....I think so, especially as I have to wait for 2 more shipments anyway. There is no need to be so agro about it though.

Lets face it, it costs nothing to print a few more copies of the rules and cards. Seeing as they have to do a print run for the retail release of v1.5, seriously at volume its maybe a couple of dollars for the book and cards, don't be cheap studio McVey, we put our money down so that you could launch the project and most of us wait patiently for the next two shipments without throwing fits that they are pretty late. It would be smart to give us the new rules and cards.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Yeah, I think you are just going a little overboard. It wasn't false advertising. Should they give us a copy of the rules and new cards for free.....I think so, especially as I have to wait for 2 more shipments anyway. There is no need to be so agro about it though.

Lets face it, it costs nothing to print a few more copies of the rules and cards. Seeing as they have to do a print run for the retail release of v1.5, seriously at volume its maybe a couple of dollars for the book and cards, don't be cheap studio McVey, we put our money down so that you could launch the project and most of us wait patiently for the next two shipments without throwing fits that they are pretty late. It would be smart to give us the new rules and cards.

That's been my whole point, is they should be giving us new cards and a new rulebook and not making us download a pdf...

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Yeah, I think you are just going a little overboard. It wasn't false advertising. Should they give us a copy of the rules and new cards for free.....I think so, especially as I have to wait for 2 more shipments anyway. There is no need to be so agro about it though.

Lets face it, it costs nothing to print a few more copies of the rules and cards. Seeing as they have to do a print run for the retail release of v1.5, seriously at volume its maybe a couple of dollars for the book and cards, don't be cheap studio McVey, we put our money down so that you could launch the project and most of us wait patiently for the next two shipments without throwing fits that they are pretty late. It would be smart to give us the new rules and cards.

That's been my whole point, is they should be giving us new cards and a new rulebook and not making us download a pdf...

I understand and agree, but if they don't, I'm not going to call them frauds either and get crazy about it, I just probably wont buy stuff from them again. The thing is we bought into a kickstarter, they are gambles by nature, hence why people usually demand a pretty good deal, and I feel we got a good deal for the money.

Now here is the thing "Listen up studio McVey", the game is currently pretty unplayable, I do like the few games I have played so far, but thats with understanding friends. If you want me to buy the future supplements you may want to give me the proper rules for this one so that I'm hooked and want to play more, otherwise I and many like me will not buy into the game anymore.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Yeah, I think you are just going a little overboard. It wasn't false advertising. Should they give us a copy of the rules and new cards for free.....I think so, especially as I have to wait for 2 more shipments anyway. There is no need to be so agro about it though.

Lets face it, it costs nothing to print a few more copies of the rules and cards. Seeing as they have to do a print run for the retail release of v1.5, seriously at volume its maybe a couple of dollars for the book and cards, don't be cheap studio McVey, we put our money down so that you could launch the project and most of us wait patiently for the next two shipments without throwing fits that they are pretty late. It would be smart to give us the new rules and cards.

That's been my whole point, is they should be giving us new cards and a new rulebook and not making us download a pdf...

I understand and agree, but if they don't, I'm not going to call them frauds either and get crazy about it, I just probably wont buy stuff from them again. The thing is we bought into a kickstarter, they are gambles by nature, hence why people usually demand a pretty good deal, and I feel we got a good deal for the money.

Now here is the thing "Listen up studio McVey", the game is currently pretty unplayable, I do like the few games I have played so far, but thats with understanding friends. If you want me to buy the future supplements you may want to give me the proper rules for this one so that I'm hooked and want to play more, otherwise I and many like me will not buy into the game anymore.

That's pretty much it though. Obviously this has slighted you enough that you would not buy future products from them. Many others are in the same boat, including myself. I own many board games that utilize miniatures and many board games, none of them needed rules to be re-released and revised within 6 months.

(I do own revised rules for Tannhauser but that's not because the game shipped out really needing them that badly but to try and compile all the stuff they added to the game in one place)

@IdentifyZero, seriously, I get that you're emotionally invested, and no I don't consider emotional investment to be a flaw- in fact, it can easily get more/better/meaningful results. But, you're also being really aggressive about it.

And, re: double standards, there's a very real reason (in my part, at least): they're branching out from miniatures to gaming, they're relatively small, far from faceless, and have shown willingness to fix problems. They haven't handled it great, but, for me, a lot of it is that I work in small creative industries, and know how hard it can be when you screw something up, so my default is to be relatively sympathetic with (esp. smaller) companies' problems unless they continue with patterns of dickish/irresponsible behavior (ex: GW's treatment and seeming opinion of... well, most people they'd have any contact with; my internet provider's regular technical errors and threats (they like to threaten to disconnect, even when autopaying); etc.)

...oh, and I'm surprised you're forgiving of FFG-- I've had absolutely horrible experiences with just about every rules set they've touched except their RPGs

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
@IdentifyZero, seriously, I get that you're emotionally invested, and no I don't consider emotional investment to be a flaw- in fact, it can easily get more/better/meaningful results. But, you're also being really aggressive about it.

And, re: double standards, there's a very real reason (in my part, at least): they're branching out from miniatures to gaming, they're relatively small, far from faceless, and have shown willingness to fix problems. They haven't handled it great, but, for me, a lot of it is that I work in small creative industries, and know how hard it can be when you screw something up, so my default is to be relatively sympathetic with (esp. smaller) companies' problems unless they continue with patterns of dickish/irresponsible behavior (ex: GW's treatment and seeming opinion of... well, most people they'd have any contact with; my internet provider's regular technical errors and threats (they like to threaten to disconnect, even when autopaying); etc.)

...oh, and I'm surprised you're forgiving of FFG-- I've had absolutely horrible experiences with just about every rules set they've touched except their RPGs

I'm not forgiving to them either, on the other hand they've never sold me a product that was not what they advertised to me. Studio McVey has done that.

How many of you trying to defend Studio McVey supported Sedition Wars before the kickstarter and shopped regular at SM? I guarantee very few. I've been supporting Sedition Wars since it was a handful of figures and not even a cohesive line of models.

I've spent more on a squad of 10 metal Vanguard pre-sedition wars then you did on your biohazard. I understand a lot of you jumped on the Studio McVey and Sedition Wars bandwagon due to the Kickstarter and that's cool.

Let Studio McVey defend themselves, don't sit here doing it for them. Claiming to be 'in the industry' so you're 'sympathetic' is a pretty illogical standpoint to argue from. Just drop it and stop defending a company who has a voice to defend themselves if they care to.

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
@IdentifyZero, seriously, I get that you're emotionally invested, and no I don't consider emotional investment to be a flaw- in fact, it can easily get more/better/meaningful results. But, you're also being really aggressive about it.

And, re: double standards, there's a very real reason (in my part, at least): they're branching out from miniatures to gaming, they're relatively small, far from faceless, and have shown willingness to fix problems. They haven't handled it great, but, for me, a lot of it is that I work in small creative industries, and know how hard it can be when you screw something up, so my default is to be relatively sympathetic with (esp. smaller) companies' problems unless they continue with patterns of dickish/irresponsible behavior (ex: GW's treatment and seeming opinion of... well, most people they'd have any contact with; my internet provider's regular technical errors and threats (they like to threaten to disconnect, even when autopaying); etc.)

...oh, and I'm surprised you're forgiving of FFG-- I've had absolutely horrible experiences with just about every rules set they've touched except their RPGs

I'm not forgiving to them either, on the other hand they've never sold me a product that was not what they advertised to me. Studio McVey has done that.

How many of you trying to defend Studio McVey supported Sedition Wars before the kickstarter and shopped regular at SM? I guarantee very few. I've been supporting Sedition Wars since it was a handful of figures and not even a cohesive line of models.

I've spent more on a squad of 10 metal Vanguard pre-sedition wars then you did on your biohazard. I understand a lot of you jumped on the Studio McVey and Sedition Wars bandwagon due to the Kickstarter and that's cool.

Let Studio McVey defend themselves, don't sit here doing it for them. Claiming to be 'in the industry' so you're 'sympathetic' is a pretty illogical standpoint to argue from. Just drop it and stop defending a company who has a voice to defend themselves if they care to.

You've moved from voiceing your disapproval of what has occurred with SW to actively shouting people down for disagreeing with you.

Being a prior owner of their miniatures does not make you opinion any more valid. Perhaps take a step back for a bit.

Studio McVey screwed up.

They sold us an inferior product.

Based on the amount of replacements needed by people this is clear.

Now they need to revise the rules and may want to charge us for it?

I end this with they need to make right on their mistake if they wish to have any future success.

Peace out guys, enjoy defending Studio mcVey.

 IdentifyZero wrote:

It actually does give me a greater voice than bandwagon jumpers who just hopped on for the Kickstarter.

Why? Cause you 'found it first'? Does that make anyone else's purchase less valuable? Or yours somehow more worthy?

Now everyone who only JUST learned of th emodel line with the kickstarter is a bandwagon jumper? Is it lonely on your high horse?


It's a shame, beacuse I know how much this has hurt you. Just a few months ago you were a driving factor in this project discussion. But I reiterate, insulting those who paid the exact same money you did for the exact same product and have a different view of it isn't endearing anyone to your cause.

@IdentifyZero

1- No idea what you're saying. I've played FFG games that have had unplayable scenarios... literally not able to be played. I may not have read the box, but I doubt it included "play scenarios without legal ends! It's exciting!"


2 No, I don't have a vast gaming budget. I didn't buy a squad of guys that are the cost of other games' character models for a game that didn't yet exist. In fact, I don't have a ton of spending money, but from that, I've bought a number of the SMV limited editions because I liked the minis. I bought them before SW was announced as a game, and have bought more since getting SW delivered.

Are you actually saying that having and spending more money makes you more of an authority? B/c that's a pretty ridiculous argument. You can say that you're a more valued customer to them b/c you spend more, but I'm guessing that raging against them probably doesn't endear you to them.

3- I didn't say I was "in the industry," I said I had been in similar situations. I might have said "empathetic" because I was able to understand their situation because I've experienced similar things, but I said "sympathetic" because it was a problem.

You asked why people were defending SMV. I responded that, based on my experiences, I feel and act in a specific way (and suggested why others might be defending them). 1- basing actions on experiences is logical. Not doing so seems more illogical. 2- I wasn't making an argument.

FFG screwed up Tannhauser royally. Fun fast paced game. Turned into a sluggish game of "dice off"

Dust Tactics is terrible, however the rules were made by AEG. Dust warfare, from the few games I played was rather nice.

Quite a few of their games, are not really their games or originally theirs.

Such as battlelore, very fun game, and they let it die :(

I'm really hoping that the re-done rulebook will make the game easier to teach. The current one's obviously a mess, as has been said before, and added to the time it takes to clean and assemble all the minis, getting this to the table is going to be a real bear.

Re-done cards are a plus, other than having to print them out myself, but I'm not really sure what's wrong with the current ones as I have not even opened them yet!

I am still stuck on whether getting into the game was a good idea, or was finally "one wargame to far" for my collection, as during the wait for the game to ship, I found my initial interest in it severely waning, which is bad for something you spent 150 dollars on. I have not done anything more then open the box, because I want to keep my re-sale options open. And that's to bad for something that had this much love put into it.

Right now I am hoping even more that the Wave 2 miniatures, whenever they may ship, will make this more of the skirmish game I was wanting it to be, because right now even skirmish games like "In the Emperor's Name", which are completely free to download, are holding my interest more, and also use miniatures I already have painted.

 Piston Honda wrote:
FFG screwed up Tannhauser royally. Fun fast paced game. Turned into a sluggish game of "dice off"

Dust Tactics is terrible, however the rules were made by AEG. Dust warfare, from the few games I played was rather nice.

Quite a few of their games, are not really their games or originally theirs.

Such as battlelore, very fun game, and they let it die :(

'

Way to speak through the eyes of the uninformed.

If you say Dust Tactics is terrible, I've lost all faith in anything you type.

If you say Dust Tactics was made by AEG you're ignorant of the game and history

Dust Tactics is developed by Dust Studios, FFG or AEG had nothing to do with the rules; they distribute it. FFG does write the rules for Dust Warfare though, which may be what you are thinking of.

Considering Dust Tactics & Dust Warfare both play out superior to any Games Workshop product, I'd like the plastic crack you're smoking.

Thanks,

Will

 Piston Honda wrote:
FFG screwed up Tannhauser royally. Fun fast paced game. Turned into a sluggish game of "dice off"

Dust Tactics is terrible, however the rules were made by AEG. Dust warfare, from the few games I played was rather nice.

Quite a few of their games, are not really their games or originally theirs.

Such as battlelore, very fun game, and they let it die :(

I'll throw in my £0.50's worth here. Judging by this post, rule sets are clearly very subjective and open to peoples interpretations or style of play. I for one (and everyone I've played with) feel that DUST Tactics is by far the best game we've ever played and rules are far better and tighter than any other games system on the market. So much so, 3 of us have ditched 40k completely and now predominately play DUST Tactics. The only game I would say that has as good as rule set would be Space Hulk (which I still play).

As for Sedition Wars, I've yet to play the game, even though I've got it through the Kickstarter (I like to paint everything first). Mike McVey was and still is a driving force in the hobby as a whole and he was the only reason I backed this Kickstarter. It's their first attempt at a game set. It's probably not perfect, but I have full faith that they will learn from their mistakes. I'm not being a 'fan boy', but I have complete faith in them sorting out their issues, and I don't expect anything extra from them. I'll probably buy the new SW expansion (because I like the models so much) and expect that any rules issues will be dealt with.

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Piston Honda wrote:
FFG screwed up Tannhauser royally. Fun fast paced game. Turned into a sluggish game of "dice off"

Dust Tactics is terrible, however the rules were made by AEG. Dust warfare, from the few games I played was rather nice.

Quite a few of their games, are not really their games or originally theirs.

Such as battlelore, very fun game, and they let it die :(

'

Way to speak through the eyes of the uninformed.

If you say Dust Tactics is terrible, I've lost all faith in anything you type.

Noted, any opinion Zero has, should be taken highly. Any opinion that zero disagrees with is worthless.

If you say Dust Tactics was made by AEG you're ignorant of the game and history

Dust Tactics is developed by Dust Studios, FFG or AEG had nothing to do with the rules; they distribute it. FFG does write the rules for Dust Warfare though, which may be what you are thinking of.

So I was mistaken. So what? Have you never made an error? The fact that I think that dust tactics is an awful rule set (dust tactics not dust warfare) has no bearing on what I think of the rules.

Considering Dust Tactics & Dust Warfare both play out superior to any Games Workshop product, I'd like the plastic crack you're smoking.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. I've never claimed any GW product was better, outside of several games of Space Hulk, the on GW game I have ever played was 1 game of 40k and didn't enjoy it at all. I found it to be too clustered for the amount of minis and table size.

[quoteThanks,

Will

Post deleted, not feeding the troll.

My 2 cents:

Both Dust Tactics and Dust Warfare are fantastic rule sets. Easy to teach. Plays quickly. Plenty of tactical options.

I feel like I got a great value from Sedition Wars. I think the minis at really great. They're Better than Privateer plastics or Mantic restic IMO.

The rules are rough, but they're not impossible. We've only played twice, but with a Little leeway and common sense, fun was had.

I'm usually a pretty relaxed guy when it comes to the stuff surrounding minis games. I want to see them do well, and I understand all the logistics involved in a Kickstarter must be complicated indeed. But I am definitely and firmly on the side of the players who think that all Kickstarter backers should get a printed copy of the new updated rulebook, as well as a PDF. Seeing as after it is printed, every buyer of the basic game box from then on will be getting the new corrected version of the book with their purchase, the people who fronted the money to get this project going so strongly should definitely get that privilege as well.

I would like to see it ship with Wave 2 models, but that would probably just push the models back even further.... yuck.

I really want to like the game. While the PDF idea is cool, I don't have a tablet but still I want to have the actual book in my hands. But I also don't really want to have to pay 50 cents a page at the local Office store to get the 57 page Rulebook printed out, as well as updated unit cards. That would add at least 30-40 dollars to what I have already spent on the game just to play it how it is meant to be played.

I think a reasonable compromise would be to offer the replacement cards and rules at cost price. It's unlikely we will get them free but also it shouldn't be expected that they get to profit from the situation.

Because why should you get items like rules and cards required to play a game that you helped fund when you pre-ordered and paid for your copy for free, right? That is totally unreasonable...

Because at cost it would be a pretty nominal amount per person however added together could be a large enough sum to bankrupt studio mcvey which would be in no-ones best interest.

Really? I would like to see the math that allows them to dedicate enough resources to design and market an expansion but does not allow them to deliver what is needed to play the initial game to the folks who backed it. Some how I bet you reach your conclusion without any actual figures.

Point to remember: To keep Sedition Wars available they will have to do a print run of the fixed rules and cards anyway.

Next point to remember: They are already on the hook to ship product to most backers so shipping is a sunk cost.

In the off chance you are correct, let Studio McVey communicate that to us, and show us the figures.

Hopefully an answer will be forthcoming if I get a chance to talk to them at salute later this month.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Because at cost it would be a pretty nominal amount per person however added together could be a large enough sum to bankrupt studio mcvey which would be in no-ones best interest.

How did you come by this knowledge? Imaginary math?

Well working in printing I have a reasonable idea what the unit costs would be, like I said a nominal sum. However if you add lots of little amounts up it becomes a big amount. As studio mcvey are a private company their personal cash reserves may not be able to resist a large additional cost. Did I make the explanation simple enough for you?

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Well working in printing I have a reasonable idea what the unit costs would be, like I said a nominal sum. However if you add lots of little amounts up it becomes a big amount. As studio mcvey are a private company their personal cash reserves may not be able to resist a large additional cost. Did I make the explanation simple enough for you?

So to make things clear, you're just making numbers up to support your opinion.

Got it.