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Yes, they are.

In 5th I actually DID run a buggy wall instead of kans. As usual, most people dismissed it because it wasnt a net list, but I found that to be FAR more effective and universal then Kans. Kans are OK, IMO, they always were just OK, but a buggy can move as slow as a kan AND move twice as fast. Now that the KFF got nerfed on vehicles, Kans are skoffed at. Thats actually why I have 9 buggies sitting around, because I used them that way. The only dilemma I run into now, is Fast Attack is full of very useful units, so it becomes a give and take.


As for the TL rokkits, again, I havnt tested it out too much to have an opinion either way. So far though, the TL rokkits, even being TL, are not very reliable as far as hitting goes, so you can waste entire shooting phases hitting air. Where as with 9 TL str5 shots, your GOING to hit something, and you will cause damage. Not to mention, Im basically throwing away these buggies at the cost of setting my army up where I want it to be. So in that perfect scenario, saving the points and not taking TL rokkits can add up. Sure its only 5pts per buggy, but when you take 9 of them, thats a chunk of points for something thats going to have a missile or a grenade/bomb rammed down its throat

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I thought the smoke save specifically said a 4+ save? If that's the case, it would remain a +4 save even with the change to 6th, as it's a specific rule for the bikes. Codex usually trumps rulebook when it comes to specific rules, and if the codex specifically says, "bikes always get a +4 cover save from the smoke cloud", then they'll be completely unchanged.

I'm more worried about the status of bikes in general in 6th. Curious if they'll get a minor tweak or a major rule change...

Well then why am i not allowed to use my " Lumberin Behometh " special Rule on my Leman russ's ? Its annoying but the Rule book does trump codex in some areas

Because your faq specifically says it's gone byebye?

Page 48 – Leman Russ Battle Tank, Lumbering Behemoth.
Replace this entry with the following: “A Leman Russ follows
the rules for Heavy Vehicles on page 83 of the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook.”

while the Ork FAQ

Change the first sentence to read “Any model mounted on a
Warbike changes their unit type to Bike, gains a 4+ armour save
and has the Exhaust Cloud special rule”

Supports the codex rule.


The ways of GW are at times unfathomable, plus orks iz best.

Just to add to it, we STILL get our 4+ smoke cloud rule. No FAQ or ERRATA took that away. Period.

We got some Dirty, Cheezy, Stinky bikes. Yeah.


I'm actually thinking of building the Bikerz I got (single pack) into a Stormhawks-esque squad that can convert from Aerial Assault Vehikles (Deffkoptas, effectively) into Bikez with a Flying stand and a flick of the wings. What'z folks think?

Go for it

Our regular bikers are far from cheesy though, and even Nob Bikers aren't really, given how much the fethers cost

Now if our bikes were BS 4, 3+ armour and could carry a heavy-weapon sidecar but still enjoy a cover save,,,,waaait a minute ..

Since we're talking about Buggies and Fast attack :

I've been thinking of running 4 Koptas (for Leadership purpose) with TL-Big Shootas and a Buzzsaw as an outflanking unit.

They're now immune to ID unless it's S10 and get a 5+ cover save, which drastically increases their survival rate against most things that used to destroy them badly in 5th (Missile launchers, Lascannons, Meltas, etc...).

For only 5 more points than a Buggy, I find that *very* interesting. So what do you guys think ?

So I've slowly been reading this tactica and wondering if a modified Kan Wall would still work using CSM and Orks as allies ...

-CSMORK WALL-
HQ: 1 Sorcerer, LvL 2; Force Sword; Power Maul; Gift of Mutation 110 (warlord/biomancy)
HQ: 1 Big Mek, Kustom Force Field; Burna; Cybork; Eavy Armour; Bosspole 125
Elite: 2x 3 Mutilator, Mark of Nurgle 366
Troop: 20 Chaos Cultists, 2 Flamers 100
Troop: 3x 10 Chaos Cultists, Heavy Stubber 165
Troop: 30 Boyz, 3 Rokkits 210
Troop: Deffdread, Armour Plates; Skorcha; DCCW 105
Heavy Support: 3x 3 Obliterator, Mark of Nurgle 684
Heavy Support: 3 Killa Kans, Grotzooka; DCCW 135
-2000-
I get six troop slots filled and i have nineteen walkers ... I also have eighty bodies on the table. Good or bad idea?

How do you have nineteen walkers? Only 3 Kanz, because only 1 HS for allies.

Umm ... deffdread, nine oblits, 6 mutilators - not walkers really walkers but filling a similar role. That is a lot of T^ wounds to deal with not hull points but essentially they perform a similar tasks.

 felixcat wrote:
Umm ... deffdread, nine oblits, 6 mutilators - not walkers really walkers but filling a similar role. That is a lot of T^ wounds to deal with not hull points but essentially they perform a similar tasks.

AV and armor saves aren't really the same thing, though. Armor value requires high strength and armor saves require volume of fire or an AP value.

If I were confronting a bunch of Oblits and a few walkers, I could just divide up my low strength high volume shots to the Oblits and my high strength anti vehicle fire to the walkers.

The point of spamming walkers is to overwhelm an opponent, who may not have enough high strength shooting in his list to deal with all of the walkers.

Also, the reason Ork lists used to spam a lot of walkers is because they used to receive a 4+ cover save from the Kustom Force Field, which was a huge force multiplier because it was rolled in addition to the armor penetration roll, whereas against infantry it only replaces whatever armor save would have been rolled in its place. Now that value has been nerfed to a 5+ cover save since 6th edition, which diminishes somewhat the usefulness of the tactic. A 5+ cover save is also completely redundant to a model in Terminator armor (Mutilators, Obliterators), because Terminators get a 5+ invulnerable save for anything that bypasses their 2+ armor save.

 KingCracker wrote:
In 5th I actually DID run a buggy wall instead of kans. As usual, most people dismissed it because it wasnt a net list, but I found that to be FAR more effective and universal then Kans. Kans are OK, IMO, they always were just OK, but a buggy can move as slow as a kan AND move twice as fast. Now that the KFF got nerfed on vehicles, Kans are skoffed at. Thats actually why I have 9 buggies sitting around, because I used them that way. The only dilemma I run into now, is Fast Attack is full of very useful units, so it becomes a give and take.


As for the TL rokkits, again, I havnt tested it out too much to have an opinion either way. So far though, the TL rokkits, even being TL, are not very reliable as far as hitting goes, so you can waste entire shooting phases hitting air. Where as with 9 TL str5 shots, your GOING to hit something, and you will cause damage. Not to mention, Im basically throwing away these buggies at the cost of setting my army up where I want it to be. So in that perfect scenario, saving the points and not taking TL rokkits can add up. Sure its only 5pts per buggy, but when you take 9 of them, thats a chunk of points for something thats going to have a missile or a grenade/bomb rammed down its throat

That sounds pretty awesome actually. I would think that rokkit buggies would be pretty decent at hitting flyers, but overall id probably take BS buggies like you said. Now I just gotta find a way/time to convert some. Along with dakka jets. and storm boyz. and mega nobz. and big gunz. lol

So, had my first game yesterday in which the Shock Attack Gun actually worked for me. Even though I only got to fire it twice (going to ground is a tough decision in this case).

Pity my ADL Quad Gun was blasted away in the opponent's first turn, so my grots kinda just sat around before getting blasted away by ordnance.

Also had a bit of an epiphany realising Mob Rule is a voluntary act, so I could actually choose to trigger it *after* the unit suffers Weaken Resolve to just jump back up to normal leadership when any test came. Opponent was suitably vexed by that.

Odd that that situation, that lead me to realise this, only came up now after four years of playing, though >_>

Unfortunate that there's still so much arguing in our group about blasts damaging / wounding units out of LoS.

Quicky - does the Shock Attack Gun, when it gets a double 6, *remove* vehicles, as they are units in themselves, in addition to dealing that automatic pen? Or do we just assume vehicles are not intended to be removed, and just suffer that auto-pen?

PS: I despise Vendettas.

I'm pretty sure "model" usually means anything that isn't a vehicle. Plus it wouldn't make sense to specifically have a vehicle take a hit and then auto remove from play. Also, if you were intended to remove vehicles, then there would be a note detailing what to do if a transport with dudes in it gets hit by it.

incorrect, a model is a model. A transport is a model, a tank is a model a bike is a model. They put it that way, so you cant hit 1 boy and make the entire unit disappear. It only affects the models that are under the template. The wording makes sense when you look at it this way, a vehicle takes an auto pen. So roll on the damage table, if you roll a 6, it will explode, and then disappear as per the rules in the codex.

Oddly enough, yesterday I played with my SAG and roll box cars as well. It scattered and only landed on 1 CSM bike. So I FINALLY get that badass outcome, and it makes 1 bike go bye bye


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALSO while looking at the FAQ for some rules question I have now forgotten, I stumbled on this and thought Id share from the earlier debate as to combi skorchas on MANz for WOD.

– Ghazghkull Thraka, Prophet of the Waaagh!
Change the third paragraph to read “Furthermore, for the
duration of the Waaagh!, all friendly Ork Infantry units
automatically count as rolling a 6 if they Run, and models with
the Slow and Purposeful special rule exchange it for Relentless
instead. All non-fleeing friendly Ork units become Fearless for
the duration of the Waaagh!”.

So yes, I was correct (sorta) stick those burnas on the MANz, and while on GHAZ WAAAGH! you can then WoD. Still not a real good reason to use Ghaz unless your running a MANz wing or something

If I were confronting a bunch of Oblits and a few walkers, I could just divide up my low strength high volume shots to the Oblits and my high strength anti vehicle fire to the walkers.

Good luck with that plan. Those oblits and muties are T6 - you are not going to take them out with low strength shots. They will overwhelm you. There are lists that can hurt you - not many - venom spam maybe. Otr a mirror match with

Also, the reason Ork lists used to spam a lot of walkers is because they used to receive a 4+ cover save from the Kustom Force Field

Which is why you now need something else other than just Kans and Deffdreds - hence Oblits and Muties with T5/2+ and thirty wounds lumbering at you. Night Scythes would be a problem. They would be a problem for a Kan wall too.
You have enough dakka with rokkits, grotzookas and oblit weapons to pull it off - your Orks and Cultists will just tie up your opponent until the big guys arrive.

 felixcat wrote:

If I were confronting a bunch of Oblits and a few walkers, I could just divide up my low strength high volume shots to the Oblits and my high strength anti vehicle fire to the walkers.

Good luck with that plan. Those oblits and muties are T6 - you are not going to take them out with low strength shots. They will overwhelm you. There are lists that can hurt you - not many - venom spam maybe. Otr a mirror match with

Oblits and muties are T4 base. Mark of Nurgle only adds 1 Toughness. Hence Oblits and muties are only T5 with MoN.

Also, they aren't going to "overwhelm" me at that points cost.

 felixcat wrote:

Also, the reason Ork lists used to spam a lot of walkers is because they used to receive a 4+ cover save from the Kustom Force Field

Which is why you now need something else other than just Kans and Deffdreds - hence Oblits and Muties with T5/2+ and thirty wounds lumbering at you. Night Scythes would be a problem. They would be a problem for a Kan wall too.
You have enough dakka with rokkits, grotzookas and oblit weapons to pull it off - your Orks and Cultists will just tie up your opponent until the big guys arrive.

Obliterators and Mutilators receive no benefit from the Kan Wall. In fact, nobody benefits from Kan Wall any more on account that Kans only get a 5+ cover save now from Kustom Force Field, the same cover save that the rest of your models get from it, without even using Kans.

The only thing you're saying about Obliterators and Mutilators that justify their usage in this list is that they are difficult to kill. Yes, they are difficult to kill, but they also cost an arm and a leg and are a rather inefficient means of creating a meat shield.

There are tons of things in the Chaos dex that you can use with armor values that would benefit from the KFFs cover save - Hellbrutes, Defilers, Maulerfiends...cultists also benefit from the KFF save, and hence they would be good to fill up the FOC cost required to bring the Chaos models, but they're actually less efficient per points cost than Ork Boyz.

Another problem you need to look into is - are you going to be able to fit all of these models inside of a 12" diameter KFF bubble? That's a lot of models to fit in such a small space. You might need two Meks with KFF.

Oblits and muties are T4 base. Mark of Nurgle only adds 1 Toughness. Hence Oblits and muties are only T5 with MoN

Yes they are T5. With a 2+. And a lot of wounds. So I think they can withstand some fire. I actually corrected myself later. I'm aware of their weaknesses and their strengths. You haven't really written anything that would negate their use in a wall list. Their are going to be thirty boys and fifty cultists coming at you first backed up by the sorcerer and the big mek. I don't think they are over priced for what they bring.

There are tons of things in the Chaos dex that you can use with armor values that would benefit from the KFFs cover save - Hellbrutes, Defilers, Maulerfiends...cultists also benefit from the KFF save, and hence they would be good to fill up the FOC cost required to bring the Chaos models, but they're actually less efficient per points cost than Ork Boyz.

Indeed boys are better. I considered two mobs and dropping the deffdread but I like the idea of multiple hard to kill models. I'm using all my chaos FoC slots on cultists. I think oblits are needed. They bring options that maulerfields and hellbrutes lack. And if I'm using oblits I want mutilators to complement them. If antything I could drop the KFF and use a cheaper Mek but for the cost he will do. The list is not relying on the KFF - that is the point.

That said it is just a concept. I suppose you could use your hellbrutes and maulerfiends if you prefered but I think the list will be more effective as it stands.

I'm planning on running an Ork + Necron list for later this month:

Big Mek - 'Eavy Armor, KFF, Bosspole

Boyz X30 - Shootas, 3 Big Shootas, Nob with Big Choppa and Bosspole (Included in total)

Boyz X30 - Shootas, 3 Big Shootas, Nob with Big Choppa and Bosspole (Included in total)

Dakkajet - Extra Supa Shoota

Deffkoptas X2 - Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas

Deffkoptas X2 - Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas

Destroyer Lord - MSS

Wraiths X5 - 2 Whip Coils

Warriors X5 + Night Scythe

Warriors X5 + Night Scythe

Thoughts?

 KingCracker wrote:
incorrect, a model is a model. A transport is a model, a tank is a model a bike is a model. They put it that way, so you cant hit 1 boy and make the entire unit disappear. It only affects the models that are under the template. The wording makes sense when you look at it this way, a vehicle takes an auto pen. So roll on the damage table, if you roll a 6, it will explode, and then disappear as per the rules in the codex.

Okay, so, a bit confused on what you are suggesting here.

Double six template hits a vehicle. Let's say I roll a.... 4 for a damage roll, bringing it up to a 5 (due to the SAG being ap2). The vehicle has taken the penetrating hit, survived, and...?

OR, are you saying that the vehicle will be removed regardless, BUT we want to see if it ALSO explodes, potentially damaging nearby units?

Its removed regardless of the result, but if you roll a 6 on the VDC the vehicle still explodes, AND THEN it gets sucked into the void.

 KingCracker wrote:
Its removed regardless of the result, but if you roll a 6 on the VDC the vehicle still explodes, AND THEN it gets sucked into the void.

Got it, thanks!

In 4th edition when the Codex was written, page 6 of the rulebook differentiated Non-vehicle models and Vehicle models. That's why the Shock Attack Gun specifies that vehicles take a penetrating hit.

There are *not* removed from play and it's been pretty clear for the entire community for 5 years, so please, don't start confusing people after all this time.

Edit : the Kustom Force Field has a similar wording, and it's been clarified by GW that they meant for it to affect infantry and vehicles differently (hence the 5th edition FAQ that gave a 4+ cover to vehicles while infantry only got a 5+)

Your trying to use a different edition for arguing your point? Thats like explaining how to fix windows8 using windows 98 manuals. Read the rulebook under models and units.Under the "Forming a Unit" and Units" sections it says this, and I quote

Forming a Unit
The MODELS that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into "units"

followed by

Units
*skip a bit to part in question*
A unit usually consists of several MODELS that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, A TANK, a war engine or rampaging monster, is considered a to be a unit in its own right"

So again Nym, a model is a model is a model. This is 6th edition, not 4th or 5th, not 1st edition. The rules clearly state what is a model, as in everything is a model. And since the SAG clearly says removes a model from play, that means, you guessed it, it removes a model from play

So what if there are models inside the vehicle? What happens to them?

That's what the pen hit is for, i guess.

If it explodes the vehicle the passengers get to disembark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If not, they go with it into the warp.

So it's better for it to explode then just to get shaken, because the unit escapes? I dunno, that feels flawed.

See now THAT is a valid question. Short answer. I dont know? Ive checked the FAQ many times and it doesnt even remotely bring this point up.

If you roll a 6 or get the explodes results, then obviously you take that result on the unit inside. So maybe the unit inside is ignored as far as the RRAGH!! result goes? So youd apply the VDC result to the unit. Since it specifically says "model" and the model in question would be the Rhino or Trukk or whatever, not the unit. So I think I just convinced myself that it effects the transport specifically and the unit only suffers the damage table result

Rules don't always keep up well with edition changes, and GW is notoriously lax in updating old rules with errata.

Some of the oldest codexes still have Target Priority rules, for example.

Fleet is another one that gets twisted around, since they seem to change that one every edition. It did Eldar Guardians precious little good to be able to charge after running, for example, but it used to mean that you COULD run, when most couldn't.


Unfortunately, we have to use the old rules in keeping with the new ruleset, even if their original meaning and RAI don't keep up.