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 Redbeard wrote:

tedbpb wrote:
Also if taking a drone controller lets you take one or two drones it stands to reason that taking and additional controller would let you take four drones...

Not really... If I say 'everyone with a nike shoe may have a piece of candy', do you automatically assume that because you have a pair of shoes that you get two pieces of candy?

The rule states, "A model with a drone controller must take one or two Gun, Marker, or Shield Drones, in any combinations". It doesn't say that you get one or two drones per controller, it says the model must have one or two drones because it has a controller. If your friend wants to waste points on an emergency backup controller, that's up to him, but it doesn't entitle him to more drones.

It actually shaves points - drone controllers are 0 points. (Except on xv9 suits).

However I have to look at my codex- I think something in the armory section somehow limits taking a hard wired version and a hard point version of the same wargear. I do know that army builder blacks out a second wargear if the other version is selected for the suit.

Anyhow it's pointless. The rules are clear - each SUIT can control up to 2 drones each. Period.

What's more important? Deep strike and outflank defense along with some fliers/flier defense

or


psychic buffs and psychich defense?

Im wondering, What could make Stealth suits better?
Im thinking a couple of things.
1: add one more ap to burst cannons(Ap 4 would do wonders)
2: Give them flamers and access to the full array of other XV suits(give them missle pods for uber fun.
3:

Basicly, more / better wargear options is what they need. Either that or a points reduction.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im wondering, What could make Stealth suits better?
Im thinking a couple of things.
1: add one more ap to burst cannons(Ap 4 would do wonders)
2: Give them flamers and access to the full array of other XV suits(give them missle pods for uber fun.
3:

If they had xv8 wargear there would be no reason to take an xv8. The stealthsuit would be +5 points for a 2+ cover save.

Well atleast give thme something(atleast flamers)
And yes there would, Crisis suits would be able to carry two weapons.

Be cool if you could give every member of the squad fusion guns, not just 1-per-3, too.

If you switch the Burst Cannon to a 1 weapon hardpoint, I think that'd be enough.

That way they can still take that 1 piece of extra wargear but have a bit more kick.

Battlesuits would still be good, being cheaper and able to bring more accurate and varied firepower for the same cost.

But we will see what the new codex brings (whenever that may be)

I plan on using the Stealth Suit unit as an escort for a Shas'El or Shas'O R'alai. The basic idea here is that both suits can offer the other variety something in return, ideally Hit and Run through Vectored Retro-Thrusters. I just think that R'alai might be a very expensive way to go about giving that to them, although on the flip side R'alai in a unit of Stealth Suits with some Gun Drones to sacrifice if need be makes a powerful anti-horde unit.

I don't like the idea of Stealth Suits carrying marker drones and being used as a "stealth marker unit" because the markers come at an absolute premium -- almost three times the equivalent cost of a Pathfinder per marker. It's a price the points-starved Tau can ill afford.

There are a few specific unit upgrades I'd like to see, but I'd rather avoid wishlisting in a tactics thread, personally.

Rakeeb wrote:
I plan on using the Stealth Suit unit as an escort for a Shas'El or Shas'O R'alai. The basic idea here is that both suits can offer the other variety something in return, ideally Hit and Run through Vectored Retro-Thrusters. I just think that R'alai might be a very expensive way to go about giving that to them, although on the flip side R'alai in a unit of Stealth Suits with some Gun Drones to sacrifice if need be makes a powerful anti-horde unit.

I don't like the idea of Stealth Suits carrying marker drones and being used as a "stealth marker unit" because the markers come at an absolute premium -- almost three times the equivalent cost of a Pathfinder per marker. It's a price the points-starved Tau can ill afford.

There are a few specific unit upgrades I'd like to see, but I'd rather avoid wishlisting in a tactics thread, personally.

Shas O'Ralai is not an independent character. Much like Shadowsun, he must remain with his marker drones only. Unlike her, however, if the drones both die he still must not join another unit.

Sad, because he has so much potential as a squad leader with his stubborn rule and marker drones with BSFs. As it stands now he makes a good outlying commander, firing off his cluster ion shells or hyper density sabots to pick off/harass enemy units.

Grr. That's somewhat upsetting. I'm sure you're right, but that really dampens my desire to pick him up now. That 190 points is too high for a guy who can die on his own in that manner.

Do we have an official ruling on that somewhere, or is that just an implied extension of the Shadowsun ruling?

The reason it doesn't work, is because he doesn't have the independent character rule, and doesn't have a rule that say he becomes one when his drones die like shadowsun does.

However he is still a very survivable character, with T5, a 3++, and the ability to JSJ so that he can hide from enemy units that are a threat.

Well that really puts a dent in my desire to pick him up. I think he's good as well, but I also think he's overcosted in the role of a mobile gunnery platform (despite it being a very flexible gun). His cost (and in fact most HQ units) is only justified if he's got some kind of force multiplying effect. Bringing his Hit and Run and Stubborn rules to a unit, and his mobile markerlights, are a significant boon - but solo I just don't think he justifies his cost.

I think he should be able to join untis, but only units of XV-9's to balance him a little. He's actually very good for his cost imo, look at our decked out Shas'o. He cost almost the same, and doesn't do nearly the same amount of damage with shooting, and isn't a force multiplier either, but I know a lot of people take either a super cheap sha'el, or the decked out shas'o. A lot of times, I'd rather have the XV-9(can't rememeber his name, something like Rai'la) over the Shas'o dispite not being a IC. he can take as much fire as our vehciles can and that just means they need to divide up their anti-vehicle weapons even more. Think of him as being 40pts cheaper too, since he comes with 2 marker drones, and everything comes into light a little more.

Coyote, I'd like to contest your statement there. I think that as an IC who could join squads it'd be simple to justify him, but outside of a squad it's really tough to do so.

Shas'o R'alai brings Stubborn, two Markerlights, and Hit and Run as force multipliers to the average unit. Stubborn is very hard to contest, as it's not mirrored by any other part of the Tau codex. The rest of it, though...

Let's take a Shas'El. We'll give him an XV-84 suit, Vectored Retro-Thrusters, a twin-linked Fusion Blaster, a Burst Cannon, and a hard-wired multitracker. He costs just about half of what Shas'O R'alai costs in total (within 1 point) and brings 85% of the functionality - a markerlight (at BS 4), armor and horde killing, Hit and Run. Sure, he doesn't bring a 3+ Invuln save for Stubborn, or the 5" blasts... but I'd contend that those three things don't equal 100 points, especially as our example Shas'El can in fact join other units and give them his toys.

The combination of force multipliers here is considerable. Hit and Run does a *lot* for a Stealth Suit squad, especially if it uses Gun Drones to siphon away any close combat wounds, then takes advantage of the enemy close combat unit's suddenly poor positioning. The Markerlight (along with the stealth squad's 15 point markerlight) allow the unit to participate in the combined-arms nature of the Tau, or call in Seeker Missile support if it's available.

I don't think that experimental rifle is enough to justify R'alai's gigantic points cost unless he's able to join a squad. The guy is almost as pricey as Aun'Va.

As an aside, if R'alai can't join a squad, then the Tau have *universally* bad special characters. Aun'Va is just awful.

To start, you can only have 3 hard points, yours has 4(TL fusion blaster=2, Burst canon=1 Vector thrusters=1)
So from my math, thats 10 FW pts for you commander. 90pts difference.


Those 90pts = 3++, stubborn, 5" blasts(in an army that lacks many blast weapons) BS5, T5, I4, A4, W4(effectively 6 if you count the marker drones, thats double of what your Shas'el gets),LD10(huge difference in survivablity), defensive grenades, 2nd marklight, Blacksun filter on everyone.

Doing some quick price comparisons. 2x FWs for your shas'el to get a 4++(and that takes away one of his hardpoints)2x FWs for the other marker light, 1/3FWpts for the BSF, 1FWpts for targeting array, or 2.5FWpts to be a shas'o. So thats 53-68pts of gear that you could take, and the commander already has(and it's better) plus your still lacking stubborn, I4, defensive grenades, and a comparable weapon.(IMO the only ones that compare rom the codex are the railgun and the Ion cannon, neither of which a shas'el/o can take.) so paying 22-37pts for the last couple of abilities seems like a steal, espeically when you include that awesome weapon.

BTW your comparison on a fusion blaster and burstcannon with multitracker being remotely comparable with his pulse submuntions rifle with experimental ammo actually offended me. (Are you serious?) No way those two weapons compare in any situation with the versitlity and effectiveness of his shots. Range issues(futher reducing your survivabiltiy), the fact that you can fire both doesn't really matter, because they aren't made for shooting at the same thing, so effectively you only have 1 shot per turn that matters.

Overall, I believe Commander R'ALAI to be well worth his cost by himself, and if given the IC rule, would be compensating nerfs.

I can't agree with that. Almost 200 points for a dude who's one Slam or Dreadnought CC attack away from ID is not worth his points value unless he has a squad to work with. (Trying to avoid saying straight up points costs due to the Dakka rules).

A Slam and/or DCC hit no him would be really hard to manage, since he's got a 6" move, 24" range and 2d6 assault move away each turn. And even then he's got a 4++ against it. I don't think those are good reasons. Everyone takes Vulkan from C:SM and he's even less survivable and about the same points.

ps: thanks for the hint, I forget that rule sometimes.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree that Vulkan He'stan is way less survivable. I also think he does a whole lot for the army list as a whole with the twin-link thing.

I guess that's my point overall: if R'alai was able to confer his bonuses on things OTHER than just himself, I think he'd be worth his points cost. Without that, it's really pushing things in my estimation to employ him as a mobile anti-everything shooting platform. He's just too vulnerable. I mean, even basic troop fire can bring him down with nine or ten solid hits... that 3+ save is hardly salvation from a (say) heavy bolter barrage.

The best basic troop shots are from Tau themselves, they need 60 shtos to kill R'Alai, 60shots hit 30 times, wound 15 tiems and i assume he gets 5 wounds, since he can LOS a wound on a 50/50 chance. (honestly, this probably gives him more then 5 but I'm keeping it simple for simple sake.

Marines would need simliar numbers since they hit better but wound worse. 60 shots is an aweful lot imo., even a heavy bolter barrage from SM, would need 45 shots instead of 60 since they hit on 3's.

I have failed to see the vunerablity. Esepcially since you ahv to get all those shots in range of him, he effectively has a 30" range weapon, if you count his move. and he still gets his 2d6 move away from enemies.

Rakeeb wrote:

As an aside, if R'alai can't join a squad, then the Tau have *universally* bad special characters. Aun'Va is just awful.

Hey, I think Shadowsun is actually an amazing character. Even if she can't join squads, she still has two BS5 fusion blasters that can shoot at different targets.
Along with the cover boost, armor saves from DT, coming in turn two on a 3+, re-roll scatter from the pathfinder devilfish (or tetra) and the larger jetpack move after deepstriking (not to mention overwatch), she isn't nearly as suicidey as in 5th.

Shes a schizophrenic model.

It's a term used to describe something that is at cross purposes with itself. Here's why.

Her weaponry suggests that she needs to be up-close to accomplish anything. But, in doing so, she's almost certainly going to die after doing it - if not outright, then by being caught in an assault, unable to fire those guns for the rest of the game. This is compounded in 6th by assuring your opponent will score 'Kill the Warlord'.

On the other hand, her other abilities, namely buffing the leadership of the entire army, something desperately needed in an army where an 80 point model can run off the table after a drone dies, requires that she stay alive, unharmed, and largely within your battle lines.

Her weaponry has no synergy with the role that she should be playing in the army.

I agree strongly with Redbeard, and his opinion is something that can roll effectively to all of the Tau special characters save for Farsight - and as for O'Shovah, bringing him is a *huge* compromise in the army's overall ability to function. In the modern era you'd almost certainly require allies simply to build a viable army.

 Redbeard wrote:
Shes a schizophrenic model.

It's a term used to describe something that is at cross purposes with itself. Here's why.

Her weaponry suggests that she needs to be up-close to accomplish anything. But, in doing so, she's almost certainly going to die after doing it - if not outright, then by being caught in an assault, unable to fire those guns for the rest of the game. This is compounded in 6th by assuring your opponent will score 'Kill the Warlord'.

On the other hand, her other abilities, namely buffing the leadership of the entire army, something desperately needed in an army where an 80 point model can run off the table after a drone dies, requires that she stay alive, unharmed, and largely within your battle lines.

Her weaponry has no synergy with the role that she should be playing in the army.

Maybe have her just stay back and buff the mobs of FW's? I always just seen her as a counter attack unit/kill deep strikers and drop pods with dreadnaughts. Also useful for when you suicide the etheral .... kekeke

Btw, where are the rules for this R'alai guy?

Also, how do you guys stay in range with 2d6 moves anyway? If I move more than 6' away, I may not be able to move back close enough to actually fire on anything. Just hug the cover save? Damn floating drones are so hard to hide. Someone always manages to see some antenna thingy and shoot them.

 Redbeard wrote:
Shes a schizophrenic model.

It's a term used to describe something that is at cross purposes with itself. Here's why.

Her weaponry suggests that she needs to be up-close to accomplish anything. But, in doing so, she's almost certainly going to die after doing it - if not outright, then by being caught in an assault, unable to fire those guns for the rest of the game. This is compounded in 6th by assuring your opponent will score 'Kill the Warlord'.

On the other hand, her other abilities, namely buffing the leadership of the entire army, something desperately needed in an army where an 80 point model can run off the table after a drone dies, requires that she stay alive, unharmed, and largely within your battle lines.

Her weaponry has no synergy with the role that she should be playing in the army.

This post sums up my opinion of shadowsun succinctly and mirrors my every consideration to her rules. Hopefully they change her in the next book so that either she is good at dropping in and shooting tanks, (hit and run maybe?) or a longer ranged fusion blaster.

Those are good points.
However in my experience she has always been worth it. I've only managed to use her in two games of 6th, though in both those games she was instrumental in my victory, and lived to tell the tale. I agree that the warlord situation is unfortunate, but that can be mitigated by playing safely.

In my first game she dropped in the middle of the board, and was able to jump behind impassible terrain until the rest of my army caught up.
In the second one my opponent was rushing forward leaving only some gaunts behind, so she deepstruck and took out his venomthrope. Then she jumped back into his deployment zone and he had to choose between turning around and continuing towards me. (She then took out the gaunts in combat).

I've also Ignored her LD buffing ability for the most part.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
Shes a schizophrenic model.

It's a term used to describe something that is at cross purposes with itself. Here's why.

Her weaponry suggests that she needs to be up-close to accomplish anything. But, in doing so, she's almost certainly going to die after doing it - if not outright, then by being caught in an assault, unable to fire those guns for the rest of the game. This is compounded in 6th by assuring your opponent will score 'Kill the Warlord'.

On the other hand, her other abilities, namely buffing the leadership of the entire army, something desperately needed in an army where an 80 point model can run off the table after a drone dies, requires that she stay alive, unharmed, and largely within your battle lines.

Her weaponry has no synergy with the role that she should be playing in the army.

Maybe have her just stay back and buff the mobs of FW's? I always just seen her as a counter attack unit/kill deep strikers and drop pods with dreadnaughts. Also useful for when you suicide the etheral .... kekeke

Btw, where are the rules for this R'alai guy?
Also, how do you guys stay in range with 2d6 moves anyway? If I move more than 6' away, I may not be able to move back close enough to actually fire on anything. Just hug the cover save? Damn floating drones are so hard to hide. Someone always manages to see some antenna thingy and shoot them.

His rules can be found in the Imperial Armour Apocolypse 2 book. you might be able to find it foating around the internet too.

As for shadowsun, I agree her weapon and abilities are too mismatched for her to be effective.

It's a real shame.

Characters are intended to be force multipliers. Whoever decided that the Tau were going to be the notable exception needs to be straightened out.

Rakeeb wrote:
It's a real shame.

Characters are intended to be force multipliers. Whoever decided that the Tau were going to be the notable exception needs to be straightened out.

Totally agree, There a lot of times I wish I could just have a crisis suit team leader as my HQ, would save on points.

I played a tournament last weekend, 750pts, 5 games.

I had 3x 6 Fire Warriors, 2x TL MP Crisis Suits, 2x Broadsides, 2x Crisis with Fusion/Flamer, 3x Stealth Suits with 1 Gun Drone each and a Shas'el with TL Plasma.

In each game, i outflanked the Stealth Suits and deep striked the suicide squad - sometimes with the commander, sometimes without.


The suicide squad worked out pretty well - they always did some damage, they never mishapped, and then they soaked up a round or two of shooting before going down. Probably their best moment was when they deep struck behind a group of deathwing assault terminators and killed the four guys at the back who didnt have TH/SS (2x fusion hits, 2x plasma hits).


But, overall, MVP in 4 out of 5 games was the stealth squad. In game 5 they didnt show up before the game ended (on turn 3), but in each other game they showed up and caused a lot of damage. My squad of 3 + 3 was 120 points and only had 12 shots, but being able to position them to the rear of the enemy in an advantageous position, in cover, soaking up tons of fire and not getting hurt, that was priceless. I think in the four games, i lost the gun drones a few times, but not a single suit. They made mincemeat of the IG command squad, they saved some FW on an objective by pinning a squad of hormagaunts, they took out two thunderfire cannons, and they gave me slay the warlord by taking out the Farseer in the only game i lost (CC Eldar Jetbike army).