6th Edition and GK changes/Tactical - revisited (updated for FAQ V1.4 and some Eldar)

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**daedalus-templarius**

Stoffer wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
LValx wrote:
Ive faced them many times and rarely had much difficulty killing them. Their offensive power isn't that great either. After the initial charge they are only killing a few guys a turn making them susceptible to tarpitting.

With Swords they kill 4-5 on the charge and 3-4 in subsequent turns. The only thing tar-pitting that are hordes, and hordes are dealt with before combat with the Heavy Incinerator. As for the implication that they are easy to take out, not sure where you get that idea. It takes 216 Bolter shots from Marines on average to kill a Dreadknight. That's not easy. Even for much AT weaponry that isn't AP it is tricky; it takes 43.2 shots from Marines firing Missile Launchers to kill him. You really need massed AP2 to take him down.

That's the issue though; rapid fire plasma doesn't seem very rare in this edition. In 2 of 3 games I lost my DK to a single turn of shooting because people go "lol good luck with the 5+ invul" and then just plasma/melta/lascannon him down.

Why are you putting it in the LOS of so many Ap2/Ap1 weapons? Of course its going to get vaped.

But at least you diverted attention away from your other forces, I guess. The only time you should be vulnerable to an entire army of low AP weapons shooting at you is if you've made a mistake, or you've just destroyed some super-juicy target and are left wide open.

**Grey Templar**

Thats why you use the Teliporter to make sure the Dreadknight is able to hide. You are playing with plenty of LoS blocking terrain right?

**Luide**

Grey Templar wrote:
Thats why you use the Teliporter to make sure the Dreadknight is able to hide. You are playing with plenty of LoS blocking terrain right?

In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

**daedalus-templarius**

Luide wrote:
In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

Wow, this is totally different than my experience at my FLGS tournaments.

Some boards are terrain light(plains with forest, manufactorum plains), but others have an absolute ton (city, ruins)

**Stoffer**

daedalus-templarius wrote:
Luide wrote:
In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

Wow, this is totally different than my experience at my FLGS tournaments.

Some boards are terrain light(plains with forest, manufactorum plains), but others have an absolute ton (city, ruins)

Might be a local thing, but there is virtually no terrain where I play that completely covers the DK. I might be able to get a cover save, but there just isn't any pieces that completely covers the model.

The other part is that the jink means you're virtually guaranteed one turn of being shot at. In a shoot edition, that hurts a good deal (if you're playing against anyone vaguely competent; 5+ invuln isn't exactly a stellar save)

**LValx**

10 GH with 2 plasma and a plasma wolf guard. That can put him down quickly. And from what I saw at NOVA I think Plasma squads will be much more common now. Prescience is nice with Plasma as it stops you from killing yourself.

**daedalus-templarius**

Stoffer wrote:
daedalus-templarius wrote:
Luide wrote:
In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

Wow, this is totally different than my experience at my FLGS tournaments.

Some boards are terrain light(plains with forest, manufactorum plains), but others have an absolute ton (city, ruins)

Might be a local thing, but there is virtually no terrain where I play that completely covers the DK. I might be able to get a cover save, but there just isn't any pieces that completely covers the model.

The other part is that the jink means you're virtually guaranteed one turn of being shot at. In a shoot edition, that hurts a good deal (if you're playing against anyone vaguely competent; 5+ invuln isn't exactly a stellar save)

That is certainly some light terrain then. I'm glad I play games with a lot, a shooting gallery of open terrain sounds very boring to me.

LValx wrote:10 GH with 2 plasma and a plasma wolf guard. That can put him down quickly. And from what I saw at NOVA I think Plasma squads will be much more common now. Prescience is nice with Plasma as it stops you from killing yourself.

Well, to be honest, that much plasma will put down any MC quick. Turns out plasma is really effective against really elite units with low model counts and MCs! And it just got buffed from rapid-fire!

**Godless-Mimicry**

Luide wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Thats why you use the Teliporter to make sure the Dreadknight is able to hide. You are playing with plenty of LoS blocking terrain right?
In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

Not if you are playing with the sort of terrain the game is meant to be played with.

As for the whole topic of rapid firing plasma, you still need 7 BS4 Plasma Guns Rapid Firing to kill him on average. Only two armies can do that. For anything smaller, they need to be aware that the odds say they won't kill it and they are standing within 12" of it, meaning if they chance those odds and fail they are dead next turn. And having just played a tourney with two (with no Teleporters), I can say they never went down easily, usually taking most of the firepower from the entire enemy army to go down, and that's when they did.

**Godless-Mimicry**

To anyone interested, I've begun my tournament report here. It will be up on my blog as well later.

**daedalus-templarius**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
To anyone interested, I've begun my tournament report here. It will be up on my blog as well later.

Will read, how many points was your tourney?

Definitely doesn't look like 1500

**Godless-Mimicry**

1999pts.

**daedalus-templarius**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
1999pts.

Certainly looks like a solid list for the tourney, looking forward to reading the other Batreps.

**Godless-Mimicry**

I should do the second one tomorrow evening once I'm back from the gym.

**Stoffer**

Stoffer wrote:
Grats LValx!

I played a tournament as well. I went 1-1-1, which I can't be too sad about considering I've played so few games with this list. I drew against a Tau player with a GK allied detachment first. This one was a bit of a heartbreaker because I had the upper hand the entire game. I had some really lucky shooting in turn one which meant he was on the back foot, with virtually no chance of winning. He got a draw which was really the best he could hope for. Second game I beat a guard list with four massive templates, two of them str10 ap1. This was the game I was most worried about, but I won it. Third game I got kited by horde orks, which left me with a mix of slight embarrassment over my own play and respect for my opponents ability to devise a scheme to win a game that's against him from the second we lined up. First turn his lootas shot my Chimera for first blood, from then on he managed to hide enough decimated squad behind terrain that I couldn't catch him. I basically had the choice of moving up slowly or throwing my interceptors/dreadknight forward unsupported, both of which are terrible choices. All in all, if I'd had more practice games, I'm fairly sure I could have gone 2 wins 1 draw. Anyway, I played this list:

HQ

Draigo

Coteaz

Troops

10x Paladins
4x Psycannons
2x Demon hammer
8x Halberds
Psybolt Ammo
Apothecary

5x Henchmen
5x Bolters
Chimera
Searchlights

Heavy Support

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts
Searchlights

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts
Searchlights

Nemesis Dreadknight
Personal Teleporter
Heavy Incinerator

Fast Attack

5x Interceptors
1x Incinerator
1x Demon Hammer

Stuff that worked really well:

* Paladin squad. Didn't lose Draigo at any point, closest I came was against the guard player. This squad makes me so happy; I just point at a unit every turn and it goes away.
* Coteaz is awesome. Against IG I had rerolling hits and 4+ invul on the entire squad, against horde orks I had overwatch at full BS. Perfect? You bet.
* 2 Dreads worked well. Didn't really feel the need to ad a third. Grand strategy also meant that I could make them scoring when needed, which worked like a charm.
* Not using the banner. I cut the banner from the list because I figured that I'd realistically spend very little time in CC and that ended up being completely right. I think I had a single round of CC through all three games.

Stuff that didn't work terribly well:

* Dreadknight. I couldn't get the synergy right. I'd either jump him in too early, which meant that he'd get shot to death in no-time (5+ invuln is fairly awful) or hold him back too much. I either need to take him out of the list, or possibly add another, so he has some support. The rest of the list moves so slowly he gets isolated too easily.
* Chimera Henchmen. The only game I lost was due to the Chimera. My opponent shot it, got first blood and basically kited me for 5 turns. Pretty clever play, but in general the Chimera didn't really end up doing much.
* Interceptors. The incinerator is AWESOME, but the squad still suffers from being too small. I dropped it, fired the flamer and then got killed, which I suspect is an issue that doesn't really exist with a 10 man blob. I need to either take this squad out, or add 5 more dudes.

Feedback?

Thinking about doing this update:

HQs

Draigo

Coteaz

Elites

Vindicare Assassin

Troops

10x Paladins
4x Psycannons
2x Demon hammer
8x Halberds
Psybolt Ammo
Apothecary

Jokaero Weaponsmith
2x Henchmen
2x Bolters
Chimera

Heavy Support

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts

Nemesis Dreadknight
Personal Teleporter
Heavy Incinerator

Biggest change is adding the Vindicare in place of the interceptors. The interceptors didn't work out, and not being able to deal with AV14 was my biggest problems was something I needed to look at (tanks shooting AP1 templates at my paladins, lascannon landraider shooting at my dreads).

**Godless-Mimicry**

The problem with both lists is you have a whole lot of support for a whole little of nothing. You don't have enough mobile troop units to take on all-comers and even for the sort of army it is, it doesn't put out enough firepower to compete with a lot of armies in kill points.

**daedalus-templarius**

Well I ran roughshod over my friend who plays Tyranids tonight... I almost felt bad.

Draigo
Coteaz
6 Paladins, 2 Psycannons
1 Paladin
5 Strikes, with Psycannon
2 Dreadknights with Incin and tele
Psyrifle Dread

vs

2 Tervigons
2 squads of initial gants
Hive tyrant with 2 tyrant guard
2 squads of 3 hive guard
1 squad of 4 warriors
uhh, think that's it

My DKs were basically blowing up his entire flank until I figured out boneswords ignore armor saves... wtf! My other DK that was over there finished everything up tho.

End of turn 5, he had 1 gant left on the table.

I lost a DK, my solodin, Strikes to derp placement, and 1 Pal from my Draigo squad.

Misfortune is AMAZING... and so is Prescience

**Grey Templar**

GKs pretty much are the hard counter for Tyranids.

**Godless-Mimicry**

From what I've seen most things are a solid Nids counter these days. Speaking of Nids, I'll be putting up my report against them at the tournament in a bit.

**daedalus-templarius**

GK 1.1 FAQ
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf

FAQ'd Dreadknight sword to be S10, rerolling everything

**Grey Templar**

I love it

Paladins arn't characters anymore

(BRB FAQ)

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490286a_40K_Rulebook_v1.pdf

And it looks like lines can't hit flyers. No more Doomscythe flyer crazyness.

Edit: and they made Bolster only effect Ruins again

**daedalus-templarius**

So, Paladin + Draigo squad survivability just went down. I guess you can still pass wounds, but you are going to have to shuffle everyone on your turns to make sure a fresh Paladin is next to Draigo.

Also no FNP for Draigo against s10 shots.

Weird they FAQ'd the Titansword explicitly in the GK FAQ, but it doesn't seem like they changed it at all.

Sword on DK seems mostly worth it now...

**Godless-Mimicry**

So Dreadknights got better, Paladins got worse (Draigo's placement is even more important now), Tech Marines got worse, and Doomscythes got worse.

Incidentally, did they FAQ Nobs not to be characters also?

Kind of annoying that the Dreadknight still can't get Psychic power switches still, as Hammerhand is now useless for him.

BTW, got the second report up now. You can find it here.

**LValx**

Paladins are fethed now.

**Godless-Mimicry**

I'm afraid they are. Just looking at the FAQ now, deathstars in general took a huge hit, as when taking LOS in combat it has to be re-allocated to the model closest to the character. So not only do Paladins have to hope Draigo eats all of that S8 weaponry, they can't get into combat with anything that can kill them easily also.

**whoadirty**

How do you determine closest model if two models are equidistant from Draigo and you want to use LOS? Would you get to pick each time?

Messing around with lists last night (prior to the Paladin nerf), what do you guys think of this 2k list with SW? Completely boned with Deathstar hits? Garbage to begin with?

Draigo
10 Paladins with 4 Psycannons
5 SS GK with Psycannon
Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator
Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator

Rune Priest
2 WG, two with TA and Combi-Plasma (with GH), one bare bones (with LF)
10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma
10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma
5 Long Fangs with 4 Missle

Leaves 36 points to play with.

**Godless-Mimicry**

Why comment on it before the FAQ? Even then I can't see the point, but now with what have happened to Paladins, why not just play Space Wolves, as that's all that list becomes.

**daedalus-templarius**

So... Paladins.

With the change to LOS, is it better to just take Terminators at this point?

More bodies, same amount of psycannons on a 5 man squad, more stormbolters to take advantage of Psybolts?

Makes me sad, because I really like Paladins! They just seem overcosted now for what they provide, you're effectively getting 1 more WS and Holocaust for 15 ppm more.

Also, Tau now get Shrouded from disruption pods, so they get a 2+ save if they are obscured by ruins... madness!

**AlmightyWalrus**

Paladins still get 2 Psycannons in 5-man squads.

The interesting part though is that Paladins no longer have ANY Character, whereas normal Terminator Squads do.

**daedalus-templarius**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Paladins still get 2 Psycannons in 5-man squads.

The interesting part though is that Paladins no longer have ANY Character, whereas normal Terminator Squads do.

That's true, but I'd rather get 2 Psycannons in a 10 man Terminator squad, and then 8 stormbolters shooting S5 bolts!

The point difference is slightly different... 5 Paladins with 2 Psycannons, 315; 10 Terminators with 2 Psycannons, 450.

**Fafnir**

Honestly, it's not worth taking Paladins at all anymore. There are better ways to get more psycannons, and the raw power just isn't worth it without the survivability, since they need that to get anywhere. What's more, the loss of the ability to accept and throw out challenges is huge.