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Ahhhh, here's the place.

Fafnir is right, there are better ways to get psycannons.

I am unsure how the following worked exactly, but someone locally had a list that had a Libby with Pyromancy and a 2nd one with Codex powers. Apparently he popped Fire Shield and then another Libby popped the Shrouding psychic power? What I mean by "unsure" is that I don't know which disciplines besides Pyromancy that GKs can actually take.

In any case, that spell combo sure did make it hard to shoot the paladins with tons of melta... assuming that you can roll that spell combination via Pyromancy consistantly, it works well. With as many powers as a Libby can roll on, I suspect that you will see a good variety of spells most of the time.

I am under the impression that regular terminators just got a lot better because of the value of a 2+ save.. However, I will try to come up with some arguments for Pallies. I do not play GK myself, but I do fight against them a lot as Thousand Sons. Paladins still cause me serious problems.

Cheers gents

The problem with regular terminators is that tactical and assault terminators from the other codecies are just better.

The three main viable lists at the beginning of 6th edition (and end of fifth) were Purifier Spam, Inquisitional Spam, and Paladinstar. Purifier Spam and Inquisitional Spam were head and shoulders the best of the bunch, but at least Paladinstar stood its own ground fairly well.

Now, it's just Purifier and Inquisitional Spam. What's more, these two have their power accentuated without any more competition in the codex.

Yep, Draigowing might just be dead now. I just bought and painted one. Oh well, guess I can make a terminator list now

I guess the FnP isn't a good gamebreaker now either, is it ; )

Hmmm.

 Fafnir wrote:
The problem with regular terminators is that tactical and assault terminators from the other codecies are just better.

The three main viable lists at the beginning of 6th edition (and end of fifth) were Purifier Spam, Inquisitional Spam, and Paladinstar. Purifier Spam and Inquisitional Spam were head and shoulders the best of the bunch, but at least Paladinstar stood its own ground fairly well.

Now, it's just Purifier and Inquisitional Spam. What's more, these two have their power accentuated without any more competition in the codex.

Gotta agree with this now. However don't forget Strike SPAM.

Glad this change dropped right before a tournament tomorrow, lulz.

10 terminators with Coteaz and Draigo can still probably put a serious hurt on anything, 2 psycannons and 8 S5 Stormbolters; and you can combat squad them.

Guess I can switch out that arm on my Apo/Banner again...

 Fafnir wrote:
The problem with regular terminators is that tactical and assault terminators from the other codecies are just better.

But, unless you're playing Deathwing, not scoring. And not wielding Psycannons or Force Weapons. GKTs are much better at chewing through MEQ units, while TH/SS Terminators chew through TEQ units. That's not really anything new.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Glad this change dropped right before a tournament tomorrow, lulz.

10 terminators with Coteaz and Draigo can still probably put a serious hurt on anything, 2 psycannons and 8 S5 Stormbolters; and you can combat squad them.

Guess I can switch out that arm on my Apo/Banner again...

You'd be better off with Strikes. Strikes have twice as many wounds as Terminators, and fail twice as many saves, making them just as resilient as each other, the difference is Strikes get way more shots. The reason Paladins could compete with Strikes was the LOS, challenges, 2W, and MC weapons.

Stoffer wrote:
Yep, Draigowing might just be dead now. I just bought and painted one. Oh well, guess I can make a terminator list now

Hah, I'll one up you. Spent $80 last night to mail a Paladin based army to a UK based painter that is charging me 500+ pounds to paint. Oops.

Wow, and I just finished building and priming my 30 Paladins and Draigo last night. Oh well, at least I can still use them as regular termies I guess. And since I used Draigo's helmet and not his face I can just remove his flag and use him as a generic chapter master. Still pisses me off lots though.

Paladins would still have been okay if either they'd remained characters but the rewritten LOS! rule applied or if the old LOS! applied and they became just infantry.

But the combination of the two erratas has really made them very much weaker. As has been said, it's rather reduced the Grey Knight builds that will be seen in competitions. Oh well, life goes on . . .

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Glad this change dropped right before a tournament tomorrow, lulz.

10 terminators with Coteaz and Draigo can still probably put a serious hurt on anything, 2 psycannons and 8 S5 Stormbolters; and you can combat squad them.

Guess I can switch out that arm on my Apo/Banner again...

You'd be better off with Strikes. Strikes have twice as many wounds as Terminators, and fail twice as many saves, making them just as resilient as each other, the difference is Strikes get way more shots. The reason Paladins could compete with Strikes was the LOS, challenges, 2W, and MC weapons.

Well I guess I'll see how the tourney goes tomorrow. Last minute list changes are my favorite.

This is what I'm going to take in light of the changes...

Draigo
Coteaz
10 Terms, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts (will combat squad depending on objective count)
5 Strikes w/ Rhino

2x DK with Incinerator and Sword
Psyrifle

Hey at least DKs got a buff! (sort of, since I was already using it, and only was told to use S6 with the sword in one game)

sadface for paladins.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Wow, and I just finished building and priming my 30 Paladins and Draigo last night. Oh well, at least I can still use them as regular termies I guess. And since I used Draigo's helmet and not his face I can just remove his flag and use him as a generic chapter master. Still pisses me off lots though.

Yeah I've spent the past month buying/painting a full 1850 draigowing

Guess it's time to switch to Chaos!

I'm now even more working on GK allies, necrons are as strong as before even with the death ray nerf, overall still not much of a nerf.

On the flip side, I'm really interested in Tau now. Tau + GK shooty lines could be pretty good. (though not as good as Tau + Eldar which I fear will definately destroy my butt now as there's a very talented guy that runs that in my area. He's already threatening me with target finder thingy suits/broadsides (as far as I know, it makes them into Long fangs with split fire) and 2+ cover save behind his aegis vehicles. He's already super excited to abuse the heck out of LOS with his 3+ cover skimmers in the open to block LOS via flat outs to his squishy fire warriors. Those rhinos really looking frail now next to those devilfish with their super engine exhaust covers.

Gotta give me a day or two to rewrite the front page. I haven't figured out what to write or change just yet.

So, tomorrow I've one of the biggest tournaments here, and the day before I get my face nerfhammered?

bs.

 Fafnir wrote:
The problem with regular terminators is that tactical and assault terminators from the other codecies are just better.

GKs can take Daemon Hammers for free, which are as good as a power fist. They can take Psybolts and they are scoring.
How are Tactical Terminators better than GK Terminators? Maybe in some Codecies, but not in Codex:SM.

Thankfully Blackmoor has decreed there isn't much of a change, and it doesn't effect Paladins much at all.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Still bummed about Paladins no longer being characters

Boo hoo...

It's a valid complaint. Paladins may have had their way with unskilled players, but they were never the top dog of 40k, or even their own codex. The nerf they got was way too hard, and now they're absolute garbage.

The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

Just because he says it doesn't make it so. They got nerfed; that's a fact. How that will mean they will be taken more, I will never understand.

They were only borderline effective previously. Now their cost vastly outweighs their ability, and when compared to the Purifiers who cost a third of the points, it's a real no-brainer. Total nerf to a unit that wasn't even dangerous to begin with. At this point they might as well FAQ them to cost a billion points each, because they've already exceeded anything like a reasonable cost for their abilities.

What a joke.

Blackmoor makes some good points in the other thread, I'm not going to abandon my paladins quite yet. Just need to play smarter with their placement I guess.

But on the flipside your opponent can't challenge out your valuable armaments, nobody to accept, nobody can get made useless.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Blackmoor makes some good points in the other thread, I'm not going to abandon my paladins quite yet. Just need to play smarter with their placement I guess.

What thread is this exactly?

 Grey Templar wrote:
But on the flipside your opponent can't challenge out your valuable armaments, nobody to accept, nobody can get made useless.

Although on the flipside of the flipside, if you put a character in with the Paladins they are extremely vulnerable to challenges since they are the only person that can accept.

Blackmoor makes the proposition that Paladins are a shooting unit, and that not being able to shunt wounds around isn't a big deal because there'll still be two models with Psycannons regardless.

But 5 Paladins with 2 psycannons and no upgrades is 315 points. 5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons is 140 points. 10 Purifiers with 4 psycannons are 325 points. Shooting is a Purifiers game, especially when each squad lets you take a 45 point Razorback as well. Purifiers are more vulnerable to shooting, that's true. But now so are Paladins.

So I asked this in the other thread... but do you really have to allocate all of you 'Look out Sirs' BEFORE you roll any saves?

Draigo is at the front, you have 5 unsaved wounds.

You now have to allocate all of your wounds to Draigo or your paladins using LOS before you can roll any saves...

is this correct? Way to bog down the game.

I was wrong, apparently it was to correct this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/472018.page

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So I asked this in the other thread... but do you really have to allocate all of you 'Look out Sirs' BEFORE you roll any saves?

Draigo is at the front, you have 5 unsaved wounds.

You now have to allocate all of your wounds to Draigo or your paladins using LOS before you can roll any saves...

is this correct? Way to bog down the game.

I was wrong, apparently it was to correct this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/472018.page

No, I'm pretty sure you're right. Any squad containing a character, or mixed armour saves, must now allocate and resolve each wound one at a time. No idea why, though.

Although this gives me an idea for Paladins, taking a Techmarine to stand in the front row while the rest of the Paladins line up an equal distance behind him. On a 2+, we can allocate his wounds away, either randomising between the equidistant Paladins, or choosing which ones take the wound. Could also work with an Inquisitor, but that eats a HQ slot.

I've been asking around and everyone is just saying to do it the same way as before since we have the same armor save.

Obviously against AP2, you'd be doing it differently; as in allocating before taking the save, since they have different saves for invulns.

Also, wtf they took away S10 vs Daemons and Psykers from Draigo. Are they going to fething change his 275 point cost after all these changes or what?

Thanks GW, really.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
I've been asking around and everyone is just saying to do it the same way as before since we have the same armor save.

Obviously against AP2, you'd be doing it differently; as in allocating before taking the save, since they have different saves for invulns.

Also, wtf they took away S10 vs Daemons and Psykers from Draigo. Are they going to fething change his 275 point cost after all these changes or what?

Thanks GW, really.

Yeah, but take another read of the FAQ. They've changed the 'mixed saves' section to include any unit with characters:

6th Edition FAQ wrote:Page 15 – Shooting Phase, Mixed Saves: Change subheader to “Mixed Saves and Characters”. Change the first sentence to read “If the target unit contains
several different saving throws, or at least one character…”

So the process you would have gone through with mixed armour saves, is the same process you now use for any unit containing a Character. I can't figure out why on earth they'd change that.

Also, nerf Draigo, nerf Paladins... I gotta say I'm a little bitter about it. I never played Draigowing, but usually included a unit of 5 Paladins as a bodyguard for my Librarian in most lists. It was already hard to justify their cost, but their survivability and ability to function at full or near-full capacity while absorbing wounds made it worth-while. Take that ability away and all I've got now is some extremely over-priced Terminators.

What a joke.

Apparently they just really want to slow the game down when you have a character in a group.

I'll just keep doing it the old way until there is more traction on it I guess, seems like a silly change.

Paladin nerf is pretty lame, but I can understand them clearing up mechanics a bit.

Draigo nerf is just a huge wtf, straight up nerf. 275 point character, they nerf his sword, nerf his troops, still costs 275 points.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Apparently they just really want to slow the game down when you have a character in a group.

I'll just keep doing it the old way until there is more traction on it I guess, seems like a silly change.

And it doesn't even specify Independent Character. Just any Character, like squad leaders. Meaning this will apply to almost every unit being shot at, as almost every unit comes with a squad leader of some sort. And I still don't understand why. If all the saves are the same, it's the same net result. There was no way to abuse the system before, except possibly the way in which wounds were distributed from the Look Out Sir roll, and they fixed that anyway!

Gah, I'm just bitter that my beautifully painted Paladin models, will be sitting on the shelf and getting replaced by Purifiers.

I have to admit, I'm also pissed that the rulebook I bought at $125 (Aus retail) needs to be updated so soon, and in such a hamfisted way.

Ah well, GW giveth, and GW taketh away...

Why is Draigo nerfed? It says to replace the first sentence of the Titan Sword entry with the new entry, which essentially just clarifies that it is a =sword= and that is =master crafted=.

The way I see it the second sentence that gives him S10 against daemons and psykers is unaffected.

Or am I being dense?