6th Edition and GK changes/Tactical - revisited (updated for FAQ V1.4 and some Eldar)

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**sudojoe**

jy2 wrote:

Actually, you are slightly ahead of the curve. Not everyone is migrating towards these types of builds because not everyone fully understands what it takes to be successful in 6E. This is the beginning of a new trend in competitive 6E 40k. The competitive meta has now changed in 6E to flyer-based armies and the new anti-meta is now horde-based armies, or an army that can actually survive the onslaught of a full-on Necron Airforce. Now this "anti-meta" build is not necessarily a full horde-based army, but people who understand the game are beginning to see that you either need a lot of shooting or a lot of resiliency to compete against the new meta. That is one of the reasons why I am migrating from Draigowing and Crowe-Purifiers to a more striker-based army. It is also why I am starting to run horde orks, tervigon tyranids, Fateweaver-based daemons and a wraithwing-scythe hybrid necrons. They aren't perfect, but they are good enough to do well against a wide range of armies, including flyer-based armies.

However, not every locale runs flyer-heavy necron armies. And also, IMO the majority of gamers out there are still semi- to non-competitive. They are people who are still relatively new to 6th and primarily using a translation of their 5th edition lists. It's going to take some time before most people really know how to play 6E and then for some, that may never happen. From the perspective of the more competitive players, you can say to ignore those flyers because you know how to play against them, but for the majority of the players out there, I feel that this advice is somewhat naive (and also irresponsible) because you are assuming they know how to play the game. If you want to make this statement, you need to add in some qualifiers to explain what you mean. Otherwise, the average joe - maybe after he reads the advice to ignore flyers here on dakka - goes out there and plays a game of against a flyer-based army, only to get obliterated and leave with a bad feeling for the game afterwards. Thus, I will help to add some qualifiers to your advice.

Against flyers, there are really 2 ways to play against them. The first is to bring a lot of shooting to your army so that you can deal with them head-on (i.e. shoot them down). The other way to play against them is to bring enough resiliency to your army - by bringing a an army with a high model count (i.e. horde armies) or armies with very resilient units (i.e. terminators, wraithwing, etc.) - so that you can survive their onslaught. It is the 2nd scenario where your strategy is to "ignore them" but you need to bring enough bodies or enough resiliency to survive several turns of shooting from these flyer-based armies.

It's an interesting topic jy2. I feel like the current metas have fallen into the following categories:

Fliers (and spam them! - more or less just necrons atm) - good at tank hunting and being hard to kill

large masses of infantry to ignore the fliers- good at objective camping and hard to dislodge but vulnerable to template weapons

mech lists - believe it or not, these still are pretty good. gives the infantry lists a hard time but usually get swamped by fliers.

Kind of like a rock paper scissors thing we got going on. What do you guys think?

**Godless-Mimicry**

I've found infantry lists beat mech in 6th.

**jy2**

Yeah, SW can be really good at the lower points games, much better than the grey knights. My 1K SW list used to consist of:

Rune Priest
3 units of 6-7 grey hunters in rhinos
2 units of missile long fangs

You get a lot of bang for the buck.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sudojoe wrote:
It's an interesting topic jy2. I feel like the current metas have fallen into the following categories:

Fliers (and spam them! - more or less just necrons atm) - good at tank hunting and being hard to kill

large masses of infantry to ignore the fliers- good at objective camping and hard to dislodge but vulnerable to template weapons

mech lists - believe it or not, these still are pretty good. gives the infantry lists a hard time but usually get swamped by fliers.

Kind of like a rock paper scissors thing we got going on. What do you guys think?

I agree. In 6th, the rock-papers-scissors-phenomenon has become even more prevalent. Why? Because you are adding 2 elements - flyers/FMC's and allies - that are making armies even more extreme. In 5th, there were primarily deathstars, pure horde and MSU as the extreme builds. Now on top of that, you are adding flyer-based armies and power-combos via allies to the competitive mix. In terms of list building, now it is almost impossible to build a TAC list that can take into account all of these competitive builds. For example, the necron airforce can handle almost all builds but will have trouble against a pure horde that can control the board and limit their movement. Now there's just too many permutations of power builds out there that no single list can accomodate for all. The best they can do is to anticipate what is the more likely competitive build that they will encounter in a competitive environment. And right now, probably the most prevalent competitive tournament army is some form of necron airforce. Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

Mech can still be good. However, a number of factors have reduced their competitiveness to a certain degree. The introduction of Hull Points is both a boon and a curse to mech. It does make fully meched-armies slightly more resilient. However, it also de-buffs certain armies because it has all but rendered venerable, holo-fields, Fortitude, Living Metal and such abilities irrelevant. It's also made land raiders, monoliths and other heavy armor slightly more killable. The limitations on assaulting after disembarking from a vehicle has hurt some armies (i.e. grey knights, space wolves, chaos, orks, dark eldar). The ease of killing vehicles via assault has made it easier for horde-based armies now to take out vehicles. Finally, having to disembark to claim/contest objectives has made it harder to use the vehicles as a protective shell for your troops. However, MSU-type armies still benefit from being fully meched. For them, it's more about the awesome firepower and target saturation than it is about protection and target delivery.

**Cougar**

Any advice on how to use Stern's Zone of Banishment at his fully?

**Grey Templar**

Don't,

Zone of Banishment is cute, but it effects your own troops too. And leaving an expensive HQ unit out to dry is just a bad idea all around.

**syypher**

How many meq bodies would you consider a good amount for an 1850 list to be durable enough to combat flyers? I'm talking regular troops but SM so their usually getting their 3+. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

**Godless-Mimicry**

I reckon the most MEQ you could get on the table while still keeping a good list is 50 men; add Coteaz and 2 Dreadknights and you are near 1850pts.

**LValx**

syypher wrote:
How many meq bodies would you consider a good amount for an 1850 list to be durable enough to combat flyers? I'm talking regular troops but SM so their usually getting their 3+. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

60+ bodies, imo.
Coteaz
Inquisitor w tda, psycannon, psychic power
6x 10 strikes w 2 psycannons
2 dreadknight with incinerators
1850
List has tons of shooting and therefore can choose to take down flyers or simply focus on ground presence.

**Grey Templar**

You might consider dropping 5 members on one of the squads to get Psybolts on everyone. Str5 bolters are amazing at dropping just about anything.

**LValx**

Grey Templar wrote:
You might consider dropping 5 members on one of the squads to get Psybolts on everyone. Str5 bolters are amazing at dropping just about anything.

I prefer extra bodies but that is a personal preference.

**Grey Templar**

Giving up 5 bodies so the other 50 can have Str5 bolters is a pretty good trade off.

**LValx**

To you it may be, to me its just another way of increasing the price of already costly models. Id rather have another 5 marines with 4 stormbolters and a psycannon. Im not a big fan of squad upgrades.

**Grey Templar**

You increase their point cost by 10%, but you increase the likelyhood of wounding T4 by 33%, the likelyhood of wounding T3 by 25%, you gain the ability to glance AV11, and you increase the ability to hurt AV10 by 100%.

Having 5 more bodies is NOT worth that bonus. On an objective level even.

**LValx**

If you do the math, 88 str 5 sb shots does around 38 wounds to T4.
96 str 4 sb shots do 32. You also will have an extra psycannon and 5 extra bodies. I personally dont view the psybolts as necessary. Once again, that is my opinion.

**jy2**

Cougar wrote:
Any advice on how to use Stern's Zone of Banishment at his fully?

Put him in a land raider or stormraven and then assault a unit with a character. Make a challenge and then use Zone. Oh what fun.

I would use Stern in fun, casual games but not competitive ones.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:
syypher wrote:
How many meq bodies would you consider a good amount for an 1850 list to be durable enough to combat flyers? I'm talking regular troops but SM so their usually getting their 3+. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

60+ bodies, imo.
Coteaz
Inquisitor w tda, psycannon, psychic power
6x 10 strikes w 2 psycannons
2 dreadknight with incinerators
1850
List has tons of shooting and therefore can choose to take down flyers or simply focus on ground presence.

I prefer psybolt on my 10-man squads. Once you go psybolt-spam, you don't go back.

**sudojoe**

I prefer psybolt on my 10-man squads. Once you go psybolt-spam, you don't go back.

it's pretty addictive especially as alot of T5 and 6 models seem to be popping up with bikers getting good buffs and other big tough MC's.

It's gotten so bad that I've gone all the way to Tau pulse rifles and heavily shopping for cheap necron army <_< ......yes I know I'm a herectic. At least my Tau got a game in finally and did great vs a bunch of T5 / 6 nurgle army and bilkes.

Speaking of bodies on the ground, anyone tried foot purifier lists in a while? I've mostly been using henchmen and now IG blob bodies and need to put together some more GK bodies (have them still in boxes but been busy building crisis suits and stripping paint) to really do foot MEQ justice.

**Grey Templar**

I did foot purifiers before it was cool

They work quite well, especially if you have Grand Strategy and some teliporter units to give you additional mobility.

**felixcat**

Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

There are reasons that some top players shun flyers. Flyers are not good at specific missions and that is what tournament play is about. There are numerous ways to deal with flyers and people are adjusting now to 6ed tactics. If you cannot score, take first blood, alpha strike your opponent then your flyers start to become expensive liabilities. I am now playing armies with at least 80 models at 2000 - I use allies sometimes but I find there are lists that can work without allies. GK can field a lot of models if you choose that route.

**jy2**

felixcat wrote:

Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

There are reasons that some top players shun flyers. Flyers are not good at specific missions and that is what tournament play is about. There are numerous ways to deal with flyers and people are adjusting now to 6ed tactics. If you cannot score, take first blood, alpha strike your opponent then your flyers start to become expensive liabilities. I am now playing armies with at least 80 models at 2000 - I use allies sometimes but I find there are lists that can work without allies. GK can field a lot of models if you choose that route.

IMO it isn't really that they shun flyers. It's really because the armies they like/want to play simply isn't strong with flyers. Tony likes and runs space wolves, who don't have flyers without allies. The grey knights have stormravens but IMHO, those flyers aren't really that efficient compared to the flyers that they will be facing - necron scythes. Besides, they realize the weakness of flyers in competitive play - that they can't score (maybe in particlar missions), contest or claim objectives and table quarters. Thus, they chose to focus on the one component that is necessary in those scenarios instead - one that both strengthens them towards the mission objectives and provides resiliency against enemy flyers - more scoring bodies! They are playing to their strengths instead of their weaknesses, because the more flyers they bring in, the more it weakens them towards scenario objectives. And no matter how many flyers they ally in, they aren't going to win an aerial dogfight with a full-on necron airforce, so why even bother trying?

**felixcat**

You summed up my point more eloquently than me but yes - they just don't help win games when fielding certain lists.

**Marthike**

LValx wrote:
If you do the math, 88 str 5 sb shots does around 38 wounds to T4.
96 str 4 sb shots do 32. You also will have an extra psycannon and 5 extra bodies. I personally dont view the psybolts as necessary. Once again, that is my opinion.

well, the main thing is what you just worked out is that it does more wounds which is better?

Also the best thing is that now you hurt T5 models and necron flyers (msot annoying army to fight against right now)

So, Having S5 storm bolter is definatly better than having 5 extra marines. When the necrons turn up you jsut gonna sit there and let them shoot your 60 marines or you can have 50 of the shooting back.

obviously I am not including the psycannons but 11 and 12 psycannons hitting on 6s is not gonna be much different. you will get 0.67 extra hit in with your extra psycannon.

Compared to 7.33 glances from psybolt storm bolters. that is 2 flyers alone you got rid off.

**Red Comet**

jy2 wrote:
Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

Or in Hulksmash's case he had a foot GK list from 5th edition that works a lot better in 6th. He's had the GK foot Strike horde for some time now. I see your point about flyers. It makes sense, because Necrons do Flyers better or rather they have cheaper and easier access to them while GK has to do Double FOC if we want 6 Stormravens which even then cannot score and there goes about 1230 points into one list before even taking troops or an HQ

**sudojoe**

I'm trying to make edits to the first page with some more stuff including IG large platoons and the new counter meta strats and I realized that if I cut and paste the first thread, it's up to 30 pages on word @_@....

Trying to fix the font sizes is alot harder than I thought lol...

Is there a maximum size for one post to be? Also I'm trying to make my fonts bigger for the section breaks but the / size command doesn't seem to be working properly. How do I fix that?

**jy2**

sudojoe wrote:
I'm trying to make edits to the first page with some more stuff including IG large platoons and the new counter meta strats and I realized that if I cut and paste the first thread, it's up to 30 pages on word @_@....

Trying to fix the font sizes is alot harder than I thought lol...

Is there a maximum size for one post to be? Also I'm trying to make my fonts bigger for the section breaks but the / size command doesn't seem to be working properly. How do I fix that?

There isn't a maximum to my knowledge.

To change the font size: [szie=number from 7...24] [/size]

BTW, I mispelled size on purpose.

**sudojoe**

I got the size in command in as such but I was also using the color command too. I think having them both in there seems to mess it up somehow.. hrm.. what do you guys think? color or size is better header?

**jy2**

Bold/italics go on the very insides.

Then size.

Finally, color goes on the outsides.

For example (tags purposefully mispelled):

[coler=red][szie=24][b_]TEST[/b][/size][/color]

TEST

**sudojoe**

jy2 wrote:
Bold/italics go on the very insides.

Then size.

Finally, color goes on the outsides.

For example (tags purposefully mispelled):

[coler=red][szie=24][b_]TEST[/b][/size][/color]

TEST

Awesome! I screwed that up cause I had the color and size in the wrong order. Now it's better looking than ever wmahahahahaha.

In other considerations though, after looking at the fortification rules on page 18 and the dakka thread and even ran it through YMDC, I just can't help but think of the skyshield landing pad giving 3+ cover and then with a liby, you can buff a whole firebase of say purifiers with psycannons to a 2+ cover save.

Seems legit or broken?

**DakotaBlue**

Hi guys, maybe the next match of the league at my LGS is vs demons.

This said, I'm planning to get a list which the core is a grandmaster and 2 dreadknights.

It's the heavy psilencer effective vs demons? I mean, 12 shots that hit 8, and wound 4, then they save 1. Mathematicaly is 3 dead demons per turn per psilencer, giving each dread 1 and 3 turns, is 12 dead demons, plus the h. incinerator, plus the later charge.

What do you think?

**jy2**

sudojoe wrote:

In other considerations though, after looking at the fortification rules on page 18 and the dakka thread and even ran it through YMDC, I just can't help but think of the skyshield landing pad giving 3+ cover and then with a liby, you can buff a whole firebase of say purifiers with psycannons to a 2+ cover save.

Seems legit or broken?

It doesn't give out 3+ cover. There are very explicit rules on how it works. It is basically open terrain, meaning you don't get any cover from it. However, it does give a 4+ Inv if you put it in shielded mode.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Hi guys, maybe the next match of the league at my LGS is vs demons.

This said, I'm planning to get a list which the core is a grandmaster and 2 dreadknights.

It's the heavy psilencer effective vs demons? I mean, 12 shots that hit 8, and wound 4, then they save 1. Mathematicaly is 3 dead demons per turn per psilencer, giving each dread 1 and 3 turns, is 12 dead demons, plus the h. incinerator, plus the later charge.

What do you think?

Rather than building your list aganst daemons, I strongly recommend you build it as a Take-All-Comer's (TAC) list. In that case, forget about the heavy psilencer and just go with the heavy incinerator. Build your army so that it can handle all armies, not just daemons.

**DakotaBlue**

I can change the lists for every match, so I can afford building an anti-daemon list.