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No, Overwatch doesn't happen while you are in melee.

 Lurker wrote:


So someone asked about a Grey Knight Paladin list in the Army List subsection of the forum and someone else responded with these insights regarding equipping Paladins:

2) you will not want that many halberds. Most weapons that ignore your armor save will be striking at INT 1 (maybe 2). You will hit first with swords against anything that ignores your save. Against things that ignore your save, the sword gives you a 4++ save in combat, which is much more reliable than the 5++. Basically, the Halberd is better against things you are not afraid of (power swords) but the sword is better against things you are afraid of (power Fists).

A couple halberds would not be a bad idea, but I would not take all halberds.

A single warding stave might also be very useful in that regard, with the new way wounds are allocated. You can basically put all of the powerfist wounds onto the warding stave guy.

Does everyone concur with his/her opinion?

I would agree. Competitivly this advice would be applied to Terminators rather then Paladins to the same effect.

Thanks that cleared that up.

 samuele999 wrote:
This is a completely random , but i thought this would be a good place to post this question. I have been considering grey knights for some time, but don't own any models, furthermore i have started to get to grips with 6th edition. So i was wondering, does a Nemesis warding stave give you your 2+ inv for over-watch, don't have my rule-book with me, but I think that it is part of the assault phase?

No it doesn't. Warding Stave specifically says that you have to be in Close Combat to have the 2+ invul. BRB defines 'being in close combat' as having any models of a unit in base to base with an enemy model. If a template scatters onto your guys during CC you can use the Warding Stave due to the FAQ which explicitly allows the warding stave to be used against any wounds, not just CC attacks.

 Lurker wrote:


So someone asked about a Grey Knight Paladin list in the Army List subsection of the forum and someone else responded with these insights regarding equipping Paladins:

2) you will not want that many halberds. Most weapons that ignore your armor save will be striking at INT 1 (maybe 2). You will hit first with swords against anything that ignores your save. Against things that ignore your save, the sword gives you a 4++ save in combat, which is much more reliable than the 5++. Basically, the Halberd is better against things you are not afraid of (power swords) but the sword is better against things you are afraid of (power Fists).

A couple halberds would not be a bad idea, but I would not take all halberds.

A single warding stave might also be very useful in that regard, with the new way wounds are allocated. You can basically put all of the powerfist wounds onto the warding stave guy.

Does everyone concur with his/her opinion?

From what I've seen in this thread, most people prefer Halberds to Swords. Personally I believe they are almost identical in gaming terms, with Swords being better against low INIT armies like Necrons or Orks and Halberds having an edge against MEQ. They're almost too identical to worry about much. I've gone with mostly swords simply because I enjoy painting them more.

As for the warding stave, while nice, it's still very expensive and there is a good chance it will never be used.

To further flush this out, I'm doing the math-hammer version of this theory vs a few different scenarios:

Say 5 man terminator squad with different loadouts (not doing a banner for easier math) let's say 200 points of GK terminators vs say a 10 man tac squad of MEQ with power fist which comes close to the same points.



With Halberds on everyone and no challenge from either side (and assuming no damage from overwatch - just go with me on this first iteration, I'll do one with other factors later)

Terminators - with their 15 attacks on the charge - will have some 80.66% to do at least 4 wounds and 61.8% to do 5 wounds
The surviving MEQ (assuming sarge survives) will get 2 power fist attacks and somewhere around 10-8 attacks(with their bolt pistols+knives) back doing: 44.23% to do at least 1 wound from the squad and 61.32% of a wound from the fist.


Terminators with swords all around - still 4-5 wounds at 80.66% and 61.80% respectively
MEQ with 2 power fist attacks and 18 normal attacks - 48.67% of a wound from the fist and 65.04% of at least 1 wound and 27% of doing 2 wounds

Overall - decreased fist wounds by 20% but increase in squad wounds by around 20%. Essentially breaking even.

Pretty clear then the way to solve this is by issuing challenges.
Halberds on everyone else, and sword on the sergeant should give you the best results as you just get a flat 20% improvement in wounds taken by the terminators.

Factor in hammer hand: (and assuming that you don't perils and kill your sword bearing justicar...)

All halberds and no challenge
Terms - 88.53% to do 5 wounds 74.86% to do 6 wounds, and 55.94% to do 7 wounds
MEQ - Sarge - 61.32% of 1 wound, Surviving squad (4 to 2 men left) gets 4-8 hits back resulting in 20.83% of 1 wound (2 men survive) to 37.32% (4 men survive)

All swords - Still the same as above - 88.53% for 5 wounds 74.86% to do 6 wounds, and 55.94% to do 7 wounds
MEQ - all get to swing so 18 normal attacks - 48.67% of a wound from the fist and 65.04% of at least 1 wound and 27% of doing 2 wounds from the squad

Fairly obvious after looking at the data and goes along with conceptual thinking anyway -

Overall, TLDR version - hammerhand with the squad when you can unless you need to force weapon or something and the best loadout will be:

halberds on everyone else and a sword on your justicar issuing and getting an accepted challenge leading to at least 20% reduction in wounds from the fist/claw/axe (possibly just negating it all together), and a 45% reduction in wounds from the squad depletion.

Now this is just a barebones comparison of course. All sorts of scenarios then can happen when you throw in some IC's, banners, or perils. If I get bored enough, I'll go model that but in general without doing the math, I don't tend to run banner in my 5 man squads cause I find it too expensive and hard to paint (I only got one banner painted dag nabit!)


Reverse the charge *MEQ charging you, I can't imagine why but w/e* and you'll get -

All swords and hammerhand - 74.17% to do 4 wounds, 50.52% to do 5 wounds
MEQ does - 63.23% to do 1 fist wound and 19.56% to do 2 fist wounds, and with their 27 barebones attacks - 79.33% to do 1 wound, and 45.77% to do 2 wounds

All halberds and hammerhand - 74.17% to do 4 wounds, 50.52% to do 5 wounds
MEQ does - 75.95% to do 1 fist wound and 32.08% to do 2 fist wounds, and 50.37% to do 1 wound and 14.57% to do 2 wounds


12.72~12.52% reduction in fist wounds and gain of 28.96% to 31.2% in MEQ wounds going from all halberds to all swords. Still of course halberds for the squad and sword for the justicar. The results are just more pronounced the more halberd attacks you get.

Would also recommend considering that overwatch by something like 19 rapid fire bolters + sarge bolt pistol will give you 30.41% chance to lose a terminator too. (hopefully your storm bolters would do their thing and score you 80.60% chance of 1 wound and 46.02% of 2 wounds to decrease that to 24.89% to lose a terminator on average)

Just to be totally complete, I redid the math with challenges completely figured with overwatch calculated in giving the terminators the charge and assuming that shooting was completely ineffective for both sides (though realistically, you're probably assaulting an 8 to 9 man squad and have a 25% to be swinging with 4 man terminator squad but that's harder to math out)

Using optimal outcome loadout with 4 halberds and a sword on the justicar and accepting challenge along with a passed hammerhand:

Halberds - 87.1% of 4 wounds, 70.47% of 5 wounds, and 48.36% of 6 wounds
surviving bolter marines will range between 44.23% chance of wound , 37.32%, and 29.55% of doing 1 wound back
sword term in challenge - 83.7% of at least 1 wound, 43.08% of at least 2 wounds (like for Nobs)
power fist sarge has 16.3% chance to swing his 2 attacks and thus scoring 48.67% of a wound from the fist which works out to be around 8% of the time overall give or take....

Edit: I'll do some more math later to see where to put the hammer but I suspect just one any one of the toons. Probably behind the halberds as a gut reaction but not sure if good idea or not due to potential pile in failures.

The thing about the swords is, they're never really the optimal solution, they're a half measure between Halberds and Hammers with either choice being superior in its own niche.

For example, against a squad of MEQ the Halberds win, you challenge and kill the Powerfist Sergeant, kill the others while being forced to roll fewer armor saves in return.

Against a squad of TEQ, likely all armed with Powerfists or Thunderhammers, the Hammers win because more important than the 4++ save is actually being able to hurt the enemy squad.

So personally I mix 3 Halberds and 2 Hammers to cover my bases, operating under the idea that I don't want to actually get into combat with the TEQ but that I should have some capability to kill 2+ targets (and vehicles!) and then for the MEQs that I would happily engage, Halberds are superior and a nice help against other targets and often when hoping for a Force Weapon Instant Death (e.g. MCs)

I just find that the Sword's best situation is fighting a 3+ AP2 Model, which relatively infrequently happens and is taken care of nearly just as well by a challenging Halberd as a challenging sword, whereas Halberds and Hammers have many varied uses, plus some unusual ones. For example if you had to pit your Terminators/Paladins against a NDK, the swords would make little impact while the Halberds let you pray for a Force Weapon wound before he massacres you and the Hammers could ping some wounds while the Halberds die.

hey guys , the next Saturday its the local RTT here in Colombia, its at 1999+1 points and this is the list I've been thinking to field.

coteaz

OX inquisitor
rad & psyco nades
psyker
servoarmor
plasma syphon

7 terminators
2 hammers
2 swords
1 halberd/ justicar
banner
stave
psycannon

strikers
2 psycannons
psybolts
MC hammer
Rhino

strikers
2 psycannons
psybolts
MC hammer
Rhino

henchmen
6 psykers
3 plasma cannon servitors
2 warriors w/bolter
crusader


henchmen
6 psykers
5 warriors w/bolter
crusader

landraider crusader
psybolts
MM

dreadknight
H incinerator
sword

vindicare

I run the OX inquisitor with the termies inside the LRC, and coteaz goes in the henchmen squad with servitors.
whats your opinion guys, what should I change, any tactics I should use? .

note: the only miniatures that I own and that aren't in that list are two dreadnoughts 3 termies draigo and crowe (profile picture ). and I'm very afraid of flyers.

Well with the models you have you can make some work, but you may have your work cut out for you.

That being said, drop the Land Raider for the two Dreads. Drop the Warrior block and add in the last 3 Terminators (I hope one of them has a Psycannon). Switch the Hammers to regular dudes (you don't want to lose your hammer to Perils). f you have any points left, get Psybolts on squads.

Make sure to use double Divination.

I was thinking on dropping the land raider and getting ten palaladins instead, but like the idea of the 2 dreadnoughts and the footslogging terminators, what do you think?
and which is the warrior block?

What is Servo armor?

oops, in the spanish codex it's servoarmor (servoarmadura) instead of power armor .

Does anyone use rhinos or razorbacks anymore, after playing a foot list for a while I feel my 6 rhino/razorbacks are not going to come back into service for a while. Just to easy to kill and for mobility I just have a large squad of interceptors. Thoughts?

I was using Rhinos still for awhile but I've slowly dropped them all one by one for a simply reason; I only ended up using them as pesky road blocks (which they were good at) as my Troops didn't end up needing them, so all they were usually doing is giving up Frist Blood too easily.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I was using Rhinos still for awhile but I've slowly dropped them all one by one for a simply reason; I only ended up using them as pesky road blocks (which they were good at) as my Troops didn't end up needing them, so all they were usually doing is giving up Frist Blood too easily.

Yeah thats kind of where I was going to lol. Was thinking of selling all mine to get some money for some more pagk's and a second dreadknight. Just want to know if I should hold onto them for later use or not

You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

If daemons keep up, you'll want to hide in your boxes for a bit ^^

Not really. Whe it comes down to Daemons and Grey Knights who gets the first turn usually wins the game in my experience. And if the Daemons go first and still get a bad scatter that stops the Flamers from getting into range then they can be on the downhill from there, as they cannot handle mass S5 PE shooting.

Besides with their movement Flamers and Screamers together can easily surround your Rhinos and wreck them so the unit inside is destroyed.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Not really. Whe it comes down to Daemons and Grey Knights who gets the first turn usually wins the game in my experience. And if the Daemons go first and still get a bad scatter that stops the Flamers from getting into range then they can be on the downhill from there, as they cannot handle mass S5 PE shooting.

Besides with their movement Flamers and Screamers together can easily surround your Rhinos and wreck them so the unit inside is destroyed.

Ah dice rolling cheese. Assuming that both players are on the same level I'll agree.
I hardly ever risk flamers for a turn 1 strike unless you give me something juicy.
I don't run the typical spam of triple 9. I like my Flying monkeys too much.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

I'm also not using too many transports anymore but as another aspect of this game has proven is that if you spam enough, it's still somewhat effective. The guard chimera wall spam has still won me quite a few games this edition. The lack of glancing stuns/shakens and AV12 ignoring Str 5 has been quite useful in just picking apart infantry blobs and making them run away with psyker squads. Even with deny the witch.

Also the last 1500 point tourny JY2 went to had a HB razor spam henchmen 1500 GK army doing fairly well so it's not completely useless. If you only run like 1-2, then I'd almost say don't bother. Run like 8 of them? Still somewhat effective as long as you target correctly.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

I'm also not using too many transports anymore but as another aspect of this game has proven is that if you spam enough, it's still somewhat effective. The guard chimera wall spam has still won me quite a few games this edition. The lack of glancing stuns/shakens and AV12 ignoring Str 5 has been quite useful in just picking apart infantry blobs and making them run away with psyker squads. Even with deny the witch.

Also the last 1500 point tourny JY2 went to had a HB razor spam henchmen 1500 GK army doing fairly well so it's not completely useless. If you only run like 1-2, then I'd almost say don't bother. Run like 8 of them? Still somewhat effective as long as you target correctly.

Right.

I think the way to play currently is to either don't bring your rides or to bring a lot of them. MSU still works. As a matter of fact, some may say that MSU mech-spam has gotten even better because now you can't stop them from shooting just with a glance (or with shaken/stunned results as well). While this doesn't affect the GK's as much because we've got Fortitude, it does make non-GK mech-spam armies better in terms of more consistent offense. Sure, you're risking First Blood and VP missions every time, but VP missions are only 1 in 6 and the combined firepower of your army over time is usually enough to make up for the First Blood disadvantage in a MSU build.

This is sort of old news, but I see that Blackmoor came in third at the Bay Area Open in September using Grey Knights. Given that he said Paladins didn't take that much of a hit, I am curious to know what kind of list he played. Does anyone know?

I don't think he was using Paladins, although I am not 100% on that.

whoadirty wrote:
This is sort of old news, but I see that Blackmoor came in third at the Bay Area Open in September using Grey Knights. Given that he said Paladins didn't take that much of a hit, I am curious to know what kind of list he played. Does anyone know?

This was his list:


HQ

Draigo

Troops

10 Paladins w/4 Psycannons, 2 Hammers, 4 Halberds, 3 Swords, Brotherhood Banner

10 Grey Knight Strike Squad w/2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo

Fast Attack

9 Grey Knight Interceptors w/2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Justicar w/Demonhammer

Heavy Support

Dreadnought w/2 Twin-Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought w/2 Twin-Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition



BTW, the BAO was back in March under 5th Edition.

 jy2 wrote:


BTW, the BAO was back in March under 5th Edition.

Thanks jy2. I pulled the wrong date off of Frontline Gaming's site. Makes sense why I couldn't find any posts about in on Dakka in September or October haha.

jdjamesdean wrote:Ah dice rolling cheese. Assuming that both players are on the same level I'll agree.
I hardly ever risk flamers for a turn 1 strike unless you give me something juicy.
I don't run the typical spam of triple 9. I like my Flying monkeys too much.

When they come down is irrelevant, that Warp Quake will still likely be there, and if you want to delay them in the hopes of avoiding it, I can't think of an opponent who would be displeased.

sudojoe wrote:Also the last 1500 point tourny JY2 went to had a HB razor spam henchmen 1500 GK army doing fairly well so it's not completely useless. If you only run like 1-2, then I'd almost say don't bother. Run like 8 of them? Still somewhat effective as long as you target correctly.

I still wouldn't do it (and especially with flimsy Henchmen). Mech SPAM has too many bad match ups under the new edition compared to foot lists. The problem is while they can shoot a little bit longer, they die much quicker, and resilience is a key element. There is of course the fact that you cannot score or deny from within them, they cannot deny themselves, and once again First Blood; saying the 1 in 6 Kill Point mission mitigates this all depends on your areas tournament packs. Over here we use a 20-0 system divided between Primary (8pts), Secondary (6pts) and old style VPs (6pts). So Secondary objectives and killing easy stuff is still important. It's also dependent on the meta. It seems in some parts of the US it is still working, but to note, is that possibly because most people are still using it? Over on this side of the pond it's not working out so well.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I still wouldn't do it (and especially with flimsy Henchmen). Mech SPAM has too many bad match ups under the new edition compared to foot lists. The problem is while they can shoot a little bit longer, they die much quicker, and resilience is a key element. There is of course the fact that you cannot score or deny from within them, they cannot deny themselves, and once again First Blood; saying the 1 in 6 Kill Point mission mitigates this all depends on your areas tournament packs. Over here we use a 20-0 system divided between Primary (8pts), Secondary (6pts) and old style VPs (6pts). So Secondary objectives and killing easy stuff is still important. It's also dependent on the meta. It seems in some parts of the US it is still working, but to note, is that possibly because most people are still using it? Over on this side of the pond it's not working out so well.

Actually, I don't see a lot of people here in the US running pure MSU-mech-spam. At the tournament where I went (60+ players), only 1 person was running true MSU - the GK player - and he did very well (2nd place behind me). Most other people were running semi-mech and foot lists primarily. Another player who did well with semi-MSU GK's is Target, though he combined mech-GK with an IG-blob. I believe he won a GT with them (maybe Battle for Salvation?). The thing is, a lot of people are perceiving mech-spam to be uncompetitive. I feel that they can be just as competitive as before, despite the "nerf" to vehicles in this Edition.

 jy2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I still wouldn't do it (and especially with flimsy Henchmen). Mech SPAM has too many bad match ups under the new edition compared to foot lists. The problem is while they can shoot a little bit longer, they die much quicker, and resilience is a key element. There is of course the fact that you cannot score or deny from within them, they cannot deny themselves, and once again First Blood; saying the 1 in 6 Kill Point mission mitigates this all depends on your areas tournament packs. Over here we use a 20-0 system divided between Primary (8pts), Secondary (6pts) and old style VPs (6pts). So Secondary objectives and killing easy stuff is still important. It's also dependent on the meta. It seems in some parts of the US it is still working, but to note, is that possibly because most people are still using it? Over on this side of the pond it's not working out so well.

Actually, I don't see a lot of people here in the US running pure MSU-mech-spam. At the tournament where I went (60+ players), only 1 person was running true MSU - the GK player - and he did very well (2nd place behind me). Most other people were running semi-mech and foot lists primarily. Another player who did well with semi-MSU GK's is Target, though he combined mech-GK with an IG-blob. I believe he won a GT with them (maybe Battle for Salvation?). The thing is, a lot of people are perceiving mech-spam to be uncompetitive. I feel that they can be just as competitive as before, despite the "nerf" to vehicles in this Edition.

I don't think it's uncompetitive, as everything has it's auto-lose match-ups, I just think mech SPAM can have a few more than normal, and so depending on your local meta you may be running a gambit, especially with all the Necrons around.

MSU may not be as dominating as it was in last edition due to the subtle vehicular "nerfs" in 6th. However, MSU-mech-spam (and in particular, MSU Coteaz-henchmen builds or even mech Purifiers) is still very strong. As a matter of fact, I still feel that it is an upper-tier army. Despite its many nerfs - vehicles easier to kill, can't claim objectives while troops embarked, can't assault after disembarking and can't contest objectives - MSU is still good and let me tell you why.


1. Because 6E is primarily a shooting game. The greatest strength of MSU mech-spam is its firepower. Now, that's gotten even better. Although it is easier to kill vehicles, it is much harder to stop them from shooting due to the new glance rules. Moreover, it can still shoot despite conditions that would prevent it from doing so back in 5E - shaken, stunned, moving at cruising speeds, etc. Also, MSU troops can also move and still fire heavy weapons (or go-to-ground and still fire!). And then there's Overwatch....

2. It's firepower doesn't degrade as quickly over time due to its redundancy and firepower. Ideally, it's a simple game of numbers. Kill 1 unit in a normal army (let's say with an average of 10 units) and it's firepower drops by 10%. Kill 1 unit in a MSU army (let's say an average of 20 units), and it's firepower has only dropped by 5%. But that's only half the story. An MSU army can easily have 2x the firepower of a normal army. Thus, for every 1 MSU unit you kill, the MSU army can potentially wipe out 2 units from the normal army. Thus, in the example above, the normal army may perhaps kill 1 MSU unit. However, in return the MSU army will kill 2 regular units. Thus, MSU firepower has dropped by 5% (1 out of 20 units). On the other hand, the regular army has plummeted by 20% (2 out of 10)!!! The actual damage dished out my an MSU army is about 4 to1! Of course, these numbers are all theoritical but in actual practice, the normal firepower from a regular army will degrade much more quickly than from a MSU army in a sustained firefight.

3. Victory Points scenarios isn't as bad as most would think. They had this same problem back in 5th with Kill Points. Yet they were still able to win consistently in KP scenarios (well, maybe except for Dark Eldar....but to be fair, they only had this problem mainly against other MSU-type shooty armies). The reason? See #2 above. While you may be able to beat them in VP's, they've got the ability to table you in return. That's how DE used to win despite actually giving up more KP's than their opponents.

4. There are some minor benefits to mech armies in 6E besides the improvement to their shooting. Every vehicle being able to move flat-out means that MSU armies have gotten faster and more mobile. There's also little tricks like disembarking a unit, then firing with that unit and then moving the vehicle flat-out to screen out the unit from shooting and assault. If the vehicle moves at cruising, the squad inside and snap-fire.


Now I am not saying that MSU-mech is as good as it used to be in 5th. It's taken a slight hit in this edition. However, the biggest strength of a MSU-mech army - its shooting - has gotten even stronger. And if an army has good shooting, then it will always be competitive. In the case of MSU, I think it can be still a very competitive build even despite the nerfs. I'm also not implying that assault is dead. Far from it, assault has improved as well and many of my armies are assault-based (with elements of shooting). However, assault-based armies tend to be less balanced than shooty-based ones. You can still build a decent army based on assault, but IMO the more balanced TAC builds will be based on a foundation of shooting.

what do you guys see as your better MSU options lately?

purifiers in rhinos?

minimal henchmen in razorbacks and HB?

AC razors?

LC+plasma razors?

The AV12 chimeras wall?

10 Purifiers in a chimera with psycannons and coteaz? (go go 5 fire points @_@)

something else?

jy2; you are right about their shooting being better, and it is nice to see someone who acknowledges that 6th edition is about shooting. However I reckon the extra bodies and extra shots you get for 50pts is a better investment overall, or at least it is for me. To each their own I guess, it certainly seems we're not in total disagreement, however we are coming from different backgrounds with a different perspective on this one.

This is the great thing about our Codex; normally you argue your point thinking the alternative is bad outright choice, but in our book there are so many options that work, even if some are better than others.