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A friend of mine and I took third place at a local team tournament with GK/Tau. We lost out only to the guys who hid a deathstrike and manticore in a corner behind a Fortress of Redemption and a Daemons/CSM/IG combo that spammed the new Flamers.


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So yeah, I'd say it works.

Dorksim wrote:
Is Tau a viable ally for Grey Knights? I have been contemplating tossing in some Tau (mainly battle suits) to try and give my GKs some range to reach out and touch some peeps. Mainly a GK foot based list with some Crisis Suits sporting Twin Linked Missile pods and some Broadsides.

Has anyone really played with this idea? Does it work?

That's expensive allies with an added Fire Warrior tax. Guard can do long range better and for cheaper.

What are good tactics against gunline armies. Typically wolves or blood angels, with triple devastators / longfangs cowering behind a defense line? This is what is prevalent in my gaming circle and can never seem to win. Please help.

The simple solution to a gun line is to shoot back, and with better firepower. We can do this easily. Just be sure to use cover to your advantage. And if they are Missile Launcher types, then Dreadknights can help by shunting behind the Line putting pressure on, and not being as scared of those Missiles.

Cool, I normally play 1 dreadknight 2 psyfleman, but next game I will try just 2 dreadknights. As my single one has done so well, I always feel after how much better I would be with 2. Also with everyone playing meq horde with no tanks, my psyfleman dont have much to do atm.

I'm constantly torn between 2 DK vs 2 psyfle dreads and I still can't decide what I want. Long range str 8 really helps vs a lot of targets but then ranged templates are also really nice though we're not as cool as the baleflamer...*mumble grumble*

Anyways, I'm in the process of building 2 DK (minimal loadout i.e. trying them without teleports) + psyfle + long fangs for supplemental str 8-9 power to see how it does. I'll try a few test games to see if I can function without the teleporter.

Incidentially I've also had really good time with a land raider redeemer + shrouding from onboard librarian before too driving up to flame MEQ off the AEGIS. Only did it on one game though cause I didn't really enjoy the build but it was kind of satisfying.

Yeah, the redeemer is godly against armies that hide behind an aegis. Those flamestroms leave nothing left.

I tried a different dreadnought load out the other day, 1 psyrifleman and 1 with las/missile. Even with the higher ap, the psyfleman killed more marines than the other one did.

I'm thinking of going aegis line next game, 2 ten man strike squads behind it, see what happens.

While I'll always have a soft spot for the redeemer, I'm still just not convinced of it being that super great in practice just yet due to the disembarking rules. I think I'm just too dependent on fleet for an sort of assault. Anyways, another crazy invention has been the flamernaught with psyflame ammo, it's pretty fun to use and can be somewhat effective but again, it's still very much a gimic as it's hard to get him into range outside of storm raven.

Best advice is already given with out shoot the other guy.

I'm just adding a few more tactical options in case the above seems boring.

1) height advantage - seriously consider this, if you are on the top of a 3 story ruin, you maybe able to fully see the enemy if he's not straight up against the side of the aegis. He can't claim a cover save unless his model is obscured. Focus fire can deny him some cover from a high enough vantage point.

2) Make'em run - I've had some success with IG psyker squads and folks that hide their aegis all the way in the corner. Making the heavy weapons run away with leadership 2 reall disrupts their formations and either make them run off the table if they placed them poorly or generate scenarios in #1 that you can use focus fire on if you got AP2 weapons. Even with ATSKNF, moving is moving and can force their heavy weapons to snap fire.

3) allies with some form of drop pod or deep strike can upset the whole thing. All our strike knights (with psybolts for lolz) can get behind the whole thing and just shoot folks off. Doesn't work as well vs marines but still pretty good in the right situations. Another cheese option is actually necron allies with despair cryptec + hunters from hyperspace via death marks (possibly in a night scythe) to flamer things all to death in one go. IG allies with the calidius assasin also does something similar but you do have to pass a ld9 psy test and face deny the witch rolling.

4) really fast choppy units - wraiths + D.lord, bikes, massed jump infantry, heck, even a big pile of scarabs can tie up units on the aegis very well. Just need volume of bodies and right positioning.

This is insanity, more suited for Apocalypse but I am gonna post it here before it in the army list section. Its 2250.

Draigo 275pts

Librarian w/ Teleport Homer, Might of Titan, Warp Rift, Summoning, Shrouding, Sanctuary 190pts

Mordrak an squad 425pts
2x Ghost Knights w/ swords
2x Ghost Knights w/ Halberds
1x Ghost Knight w/ Banner

Coteaz 100pts

10x Terminators w/ 2x Hammers, 2x Psycannon/Halberds, 5x Halberds, Brotherhood Banner

3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts
3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts
3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts
3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts

Storm Raven 205pts
Storm Raven 205pts

Dreadknight w/ Greatsword an Incinerator 185pts
Dreadknight w/ Incinerator 160pts

Mordrak, Draigo, and the Librarian all come down in a blob. Both Dreadknights deepstrike and are made scoring, The Terminators also deepstrike. Coteaz an the Henchmen start on the board. With Communion most if not all of my reserves should come in on the turn 2.

Whatcha think crazy isn't it.

When you say it is better suited for Apocalypse I take it Apocalypse doesn't play for objectives?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
When you say it is better suited for Apocalypse I take it Apocalypse doesn't play for objectives?

Apoc can be played with objectives or not.

Who needs objectives when you dump 18 terminators, 2 dreadknights and 2 storm ravens in the enemies face on turn two. I included draigo for survivability and to guarantee that the dreadknights are both scoring while the enemy is to busy dealing with the mess in front of him to bother shooting at the acolytes who can scurry around in cover to grab an objective or two.

I just like the idea of sticking a unit consisting of Draigo, Mordrak, a Librarian, an 5 ghost knights in the enemies face on turn 1. That's what 15 wounds all with draigo out front to dish off any non lethal shots to Mordrak an the Librarian an then have the rest come in on turn 2. The librarian summons Coteaz an he starts kicking out divination powers.

So what are peoples thoughts on loadouts for a Stormraven? I just bought one yesterday and I'm not too sure how I want to put it together. I'm thinking, my army currently lacks some long range anti-tank, so the Multimelta and Lascannons might be nice. But that's only two shots per turn. So then I thought about the Typhoon launcher and lascannon. But I really like the AP1 of the multimelta. So I thought about the Plasma cannon. My army, with the changes to 6th edition, kinda struggles with terminators and other 2+ save units now. I mean, I can melt them with enough dedicated firepower, but it'd be nice to drop an AP2 pie-plate on them as well. But then, if they're staggered out I'll probably only hit two, and if I scatter poorly I might hit none. But the lascannon is pretty likely to hit and do the same job,l without the risk of overheating.

Gah! It's hard to decide. What sort of loadouts is Dakka running, and how effective have you found them?

 Kaldor wrote:
So what are peoples thoughts on loadouts for a Stormraven? I just bought one yesterday and I'm not too sure how I want to put it together. I'm thinking, my army currently lacks some long range anti-tank, so the Multimelta and Lascannons might be nice. But that's only two shots per turn. So then I thought about the Typhoon launcher and lascannon. But I really like the AP1 of the multimelta. So I thought about the Plasma cannon. My army, with the changes to 6th edition, kinda struggles with terminators and other 2+ save units now. I mean, I can melt them with enough dedicated firepower, but it'd be nice to drop an AP2 pie-plate on them as well. But then, if they're staggered out I'll probably only hit two, and if I scatter poorly I might hit none. But the lascannon is pretty likely to hit and do the same job,l without the risk of overheating.

Gah! It's hard to decide. What sort of loadouts is Dakka running, and how effective have you found them?

On a single storm Raven I would go Multi Melta and Plasma Cannon. Twin Linking that Plasma Cannon makes all the difference. It rarely if ever gets hot and its way more accurate.

Dorksim wrote:
Is Tau a viable ally for Grey Knights? I have been contemplating tossing in some Tau (mainly battle suits) to try and give my GKs some range to reach out and touch some peeps. Mainly a GK foot based list with some Crisis Suits sporting Twin Linked Missile pods and some Broadsides.

Has anyone really played with this idea? Does it work?

Tau is a viable ally....but not an optimal one. What is one of the strengths of Tau? Shooting. What is one of the strengths of the knights? Shooting. Tau allies do not really address anything that GK's cannot already do well. It's like allying daemons to orks. While it can work, daemons don't really address one of the main shortcomings of orks, which is shooting.

A better ally for the knights are IG and necrons. Necrons address the GK's lack of mobility with their scythes. IG addresses the GK's tendency to not have enough bodies on the table.

 tuiman wrote:
What are good tactics against gunline armies. Typically wolves or blood angels, with triple devastators / longfangs cowering behind a defense line? This is what is prevalent in my gaming circle and can never seem to win. Please help.

The knights can build an even more devastating gunline army than BA and can rival the wolves with their own shooting, especially if you give them an ADL as well. Or you can build a fast GK army that can get into the enemy's face really fast. Really depends on what style of GK you like to play and your list.

If you have your list, we can examine the "tactics" in more depth or suggest changes to your army list to make you better able to deal with them.





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valace2 wrote:
This is insanity, more suited for Apocalypse but I am gonna post it here before it in the army list section. Its 2250.

Draigo 275pts

Librarian w/ Teleport Homer, Might of Titan, Warp Rift, Summoning, Shrouding, Sanctuary 190pts

Mordrak an squad 425pts
2x Ghost Knights w/ swords
2x Ghost Knights w/ Halberds
1x Ghost Knight w/ Banner

Coteaz 100pts

10x Terminators w/ 2x Hammers, 2x Psycannon/Halberds, 5x Halberds, Brotherhood Banner

3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts
3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts
3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts
3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts

Storm Raven 205pts
Storm Raven 205pts

Dreadknight w/ Greatsword an Incinerator 185pts
Dreadknight w/ Incinerator 160pts

Mordrak, Draigo, and the Librarian all come down in a blob. Both Dreadknights deepstrike and are made scoring, The Terminators also deepstrike. Coteaz an the Henchmen start on the board. With Communion most if not all of my reserves should come in on the turn 2.

Whatcha think crazy isn't it.

Honestly, it's a 1-trick-pony list that will either crush the opponent if he doesn't have the "tools" to deal with your deathstar or it will get crushed by an opponent who brings a list balanced enough to tackle deathstars and other such armies. And in a tournament environment, I am betting on the balanced lists to beat out the unbalanced ones.

One thing to note is that the Librarian's Teleport Homer doesn't work in conjunction with the Summoning (at least not according to pure RAW). For the Summoning to work, you would need mystics.

An opponent with a balanced enough army should be able to deal with your Mordrakstar. It may take the entire firepower of his army, but after he takes care of them, it is much easier to deal with the rest of your army.

I used to run a similarly unbalanced army based on a particular tactic - the shunt-punch list:

Mordrak + Ghost Knights
Librarian w/upgrades (has to have Warp Rift)
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo (would reduce this depending on points level)
5x Strikers - 1x Psycannon
3x10 Interceptors - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo (at lower points, would reduce the number of interceptors)
2x Dreadknights with Teleporters + Heavy Incinerator.


Turn 1 Mordrak comes in. All the Interceptors and dreadknights shunt forwards so that you are dealing with my entire army all at once. Also, back in 5th, you can give the dreadknights Scout and they can possibly assault on Turn 1, making the list that much more deadly. (Now this tactic is very hard to pull off and would require you to go 2nd.) But there are just too many factors that have to go your way in order for the tactic to work properly. One mistake and you will fighting with a handicap. While you will on occassion dominate your opponent, to do it consistently on the GT level (where you play perhaps 5-8 games) is almost impossible. Something is bound to not go your way and all it takes is just 1 lost and you are out of the running to win the tournament.

In short, the list is an intentionally unbalanced list because it relies on a particular strategy to beat the opponent. These type of lists lack the flexibility to win consistently in a series of games because you will eventually come up against an army build that is not affected by your tactic. Now if you are playing just for fun, then more power to you. However, if what you are interested in is a tournament-worthy build that can actually potentially win the tournament, then I'd look more into building a more balanced GK list.

valace2 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
So what are peoples thoughts on loadouts for a Stormraven? I just bought one yesterday and I'm not too sure how I want to put it together. I'm thinking, my army currently lacks some long range anti-tank, so the Multimelta and Lascannons might be nice. But that's only two shots per turn. So then I thought about the Typhoon launcher and lascannon. But I really like the AP1 of the multimelta. So I thought about the Plasma cannon. My army, with the changes to 6th edition, kinda struggles with terminators and other 2+ save units now. I mean, I can melt them with enough dedicated firepower, but it'd be nice to drop an AP2 pie-plate on them as well. But then, if they're staggered out I'll probably only hit two, and if I scatter poorly I might hit none. But the lascannon is pretty likely to hit and do the same job,l without the risk of overheating.

Gah! It's hard to decide. What sort of loadouts is Dakka running, and how effective have you found them?

On a single storm Raven I would go Multi Melta and Plasma Cannon. Twin Linking that Plasma Cannon makes all the difference. It rarely if ever gets hot and its way more accurate.

I forgot to mention, one of the main reasons I want to include a Stormraven is because many of the local players are starting to include fliers, and while enough S5 or S7 shots can bring them down, I find the number of shots required to score some hits are just too high. I can either direct all my shooting at something in the hopes of bringing it down, while the rest of the enemy army escapes unscathed, or I can let the enemy flier run around with impunity. If I take a Stormraven, I want it to be able to punch other fliers out of the air and I think the lascannon would be the best option for that.

Although having said that, it's only one point better than a Multimelta, and a multmelta is going to be scoring a penetrating hit on most fliers with a 3 or more.

 Kaldor wrote:
So what are peoples thoughts on loadouts for a Stormraven? I just bought one yesterday and I'm not too sure how I want to put it together. I'm thinking, my army currently lacks some long range anti-tank, so the Multimelta and Lascannons might be nice. But that's only two shots per turn. So then I thought about the Typhoon launcher and lascannon. But I really like the AP1 of the multimelta. So I thought about the Plasma cannon. My army, with the changes to 6th edition, kinda struggles with terminators and other 2+ save units now. I mean, I can melt them with enough dedicated firepower, but it'd be nice to drop an AP2 pie-plate on them as well. But then, if they're staggered out I'll probably only hit two, and if I scatter poorly I might hit none. But the lascannon is pretty likely to hit and do the same job,l without the risk of overheating.

Gah! It's hard to decide. What sort of loadouts is Dakka running, and how effective have you found them?

I prefer TL-MM + TL-AC for a general-purpose stormraven. However, if you are expecting to use the raven more as an anti-aircraft/anti-tank choice, then the TL-MM + TL-LC is probably more suitable. It really depends on which are you more lacking in the rest of your army. If your army already has a lot of anti-infantry (i.e. stormbolter-spam, psybacks), then you may want to take the MM/LC for AT/AA purposes. If your army needs help against infantry, then the MM/AC is a better option. In such a case, you may even want to consider the hurricane bolters with psybolt ammo.

My thoughts on the SR are pretty much on the first page of this thread but in general I'm sticking to the SR in a anti-tank/flier role so MM+LC for me lately. Also due to the amount of moaning and crying on the YMDC thread, some folks will not let you draw good line of sight with the AC or PC's at anything the raven is pointing at so just be careful of what you are doing with the thing.

Typically if I do run the MM+AC role, I generally buy psybolts for the thing and then I really want to then buy the hurricane bolters and points start to add up fast. Hard to resisist the urge!

Another thing to consider, you'd probably want to keep your raven alive so to get into optimum range of a target for MM and another target for the AC, may have you in the middle of the field thus exposing you to more firepower than you'd like. With the MM+LC mode, you can be more on just one flank, shoot at primary with the MM and then the LC at a more distant target keeping your raven out of range of stuff.

If I need plasma cannons or AP2 stuff, plasma acolytes and servators does ok with me. Coteaz and his retinue fill this role nicely for me already so I rarely need it but anti-flier defense is key with SR in this edition in my opinion though of course your allies and such will dictate alot of this.

Necron main with alot of fliers would see me not bothering with a storm raven and more survivable bodies on the ground for example.

valace2 wrote:Who needs objectives when you dump 18 terminators, 2 dreadknights and 2 storm ravens in the enemies face on turn two.

I would argue a good player would, since playing the objective is the most important skill a wargamer can have. Dropping all that in the enemy's face turn 2 is scary, but they are far from invincible and will pay the price often enough for being so aggressive. As jy2 pointed out above, most armies will have the tools to deal with them (and plenty of them at that points value).

valace2 wrote:On a single storm Raven I would go Multi Melta and Plasma Cannon. Twin Linking that Plasma Cannon makes all the difference. It rarely if ever gets hot and its way more accurate.

Twin-linked is irrelevant for a Storm Raven, whose role should be anti-air since the rest of the army does everything else already. The PC and HB are both too limited, so I think you should always have MM or TML as main with turret AC or LC. MM and AC is the best load-out for me, as the single shot Lascannon is too prone to fluffing.

 Kaldor wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
So what are peoples thoughts on loadouts for a Stormraven? I just bought one yesterday and I'm not too sure how I want to put it together. I'm thinking, my army currently lacks some long range anti-tank, so the Multimelta and Lascannons might be nice. But that's only two shots per turn. So then I thought about the Typhoon launcher and lascannon. But I really like the AP1 of the multimelta. So I thought about the Plasma cannon. My army, with the changes to 6th edition, kinda struggles with terminators and other 2+ save units now. I mean, I can melt them with enough dedicated firepower, but it'd be nice to drop an AP2 pie-plate on them as well. But then, if they're staggered out I'll probably only hit two, and if I scatter poorly I might hit none. But the lascannon is pretty likely to hit and do the same job,l without the risk of overheating.

Gah! It's hard to decide. What sort of loadouts is Dakka running, and how effective have you found them?

On a single storm Raven I would go Multi Melta and Plasma Cannon. Twin Linking that Plasma Cannon makes all the difference. It rarely if ever gets hot and its way more accurate.

I forgot to mention, one of the main reasons I want to include a Stormraven is because many of the local players are starting to include fliers, and while enough S5 or S7 shots can bring them down, I find the number of shots required to score some hits are just too high. I can either direct all my shooting at something in the hopes of bringing it down, while the rest of the enemy army escapes unscathed, or I can let the enemy flier run around with impunity. If I take a Stormraven, I want it to be able to punch other fliers out of the air and I think the lascannon would be the best option for that.

Although having said that, it's only one point better than a Multimelta, and a multmelta is going to be scoring a penetrating hit on most fliers with a 3 or more.

How many flyers are you seeing at one time? if you are looking at 3+ then one storm raven isn't going to cut it unless you also bring an ADL. Also take into account if you are running against other Storm Ravens you don't get armourbane against them from the Multimelta. Also take into account that dogfighting in 40k right now is very sloppy they should have allowed skyfire while in hover mode.

I went with the Plasma because as you said you are starting to see more 2+ armour saves and nothing is better at taking out 2+ armour than a TL plasma cannon.

FYI, if your going to bring a ADL with quadgun, why not pay 25pts more and take a bastion. There are a lot more tricks that can be played with a bastion.

-psyammo upgrade units can fire bastion turrents as S6
-give protection from blast templates to the units inside, and might actually reduce the casualties from things like baleflamers.
-Allows a unit to get a distinct high advantage, sometimes allowing them to ignore the ADL cover save some units would get (aka rhinos often don't get it anymore)
-LOS block terrain
-AV14 target saturation
-probably many others

I've been on the fence a lot lately on if ADL is worth taking compared to the Bastion. Especially agaisnt certain armies. (Necrons-did you know that they can't glance it to death? Those 3-4 glances they might actually get, go to the unit inside and you get armor saves agaisnt those. Can allow you to protect certain units from necrons

Hey guys heres my list to take to a tounie March next year, looking for some c&c form fellow gk players.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/491001.page

Was also wondering if a defence line is worth it for strike spam or not. For 50 points, 4+cover seems good. I'm not to keen on the old bastion.

@tuiman

For a foot-GK list, I like the ADL and think that it is a worthwhile investment in a TAC foot-list.

1. Plasma servitors - cheap but without an Inquisitor there, extremely unreliable. I am not too big on this unit. Coteaz is better off with a strike squad with Prescience. I'd recommend dropping this unit to get a 3-man henchmen unit just for objectives. Besides, as an objective-camping unit, with plasma cannons, your opponent won't ignore them. That is not what you want.

2. Put all hammers on non-sergeant strikers. You don't want to lose your sergeant to a challenge. You don't need the halberd on the striker sergeant, but if you have the extra points, then it's ok.

3. Drop psybolt ammo from the stormraven. Unless you're getting hurricane bolters, you really don't need that upgrade.


Remove the servitors and psybolt ammo and now you can easily afford the ADL and henchmen. You will probably have enough leftover to get 1 or 2 more deathcults/crusaders and perhaps halberds for your sergeants.

Thanks Jy, I dropped psybolt on the raven and the servitors to give me 80 points.

Put in an aegis, and 2 more deathcult assassins. to give them some more punch. Although I could swap 1 of them for a unit of 3 warrior acolytes maybe?

Yep I put hammer on normal guys, I have the one halberd becasue I just have the model around

For the raven, without psybolt is the assault cannon still worth it, or should I take the lascannon instead (its main role is anti flyer/ anti-tank so thinking the lascannon.

Thanks for the help

So, I had a 1350 tourny over the weekend at my local store and took 1st. There were about 14 people playing. When X-0 with:
GM and Coteaz for HQs
2x Strike Squads x10 with 2 cannons each and a hammer as my troops
Purifiers x10 with 4 cannons a hammer and 5 halberds
and 2x dreadknights with heavy flamers

Best case scenario I had my whole army scoring, worst case I had 30 power armor guys scoring.

The champions of the whole day for me were psycannons, no shock there. I did have the last purifier in the squad take literally 25 wounds before dieing. It was glorious and funny. The necron player was not too enthused especially since it was a cannon just sitting there pewpewing 4 shots at his arks all game.

Round 1: Necrons
Round 2: Necrons
Round 3: Chaos Space Marines
Round 4: Blood Angels

Was a great day.

 tuiman wrote:
Thanks Jy, I dropped psybolt on the raven and the servitors to give me 80 points.

Put in an aegis, and 2 more deathcult assassins. to give them some more punch. Although I could swap 1 of them for a unit of 3 warrior acolytes maybe?

Yep I put hammer on normal guys, I have the one halberd becasue I just have the model around

For the raven, without psybolt is the assault cannon still worth it, or should I take the lascannon instead (its main role is anti flyer/ anti-tank so thinking the lascannon.

Thanks for the help

Then go for the Lascannon. That's also how I normally run my raven as well. Got my strikers and S5-stormbolters for anti-infantry. Raven goes after other flyers, tanks and monstrous creatures.

 Goat wrote:
So, I had a 1350 tourny over the weekend at my local store and took 1st. There were about 14 people playing. When X-0 with:
GM and Coteaz for HQs
2x Strike Squads x10 with 2 cannons each and a hammer as my troops
Purifiers x10 with 4 cannons a hammer and 5 halberds
and 2x dreadknights with heavy flamers

Best case scenario I had my whole army scoring, worst case I had 30 power armor guys scoring.

The champions of the whole day for me were psycannons, no shock there. I did have the last purifier in the squad take literally 25 wounds before dieing. It was glorious and funny. The necron player was not too enthused especially since it was a cannon just sitting there pewpewing 4 shots at his arks all game.

Round 1: Necrons
Round 2: Necrons
Round 3: Chaos Space Marines
Round 4: Blood Angels

Was a great day.

Nice! Congrats. Surprising to see how much GK's at only 1350....along with 2 HQ's and 2 dreadknights!

 jy2 wrote:
Nice! Congrats. Surprising to see how much GK's at only 1350....along with 2 HQ's and 2 dreadknights!

The games were on 4x4 instead of 6x4 so I was able to cut 150 points on DK teleports for more boots.

Coyote81 wrote:
FYI, if your going to bring a ADL with quadgun, why not pay 25pts more and take a bastion

Because the ADL is better.

Coyote81 wrote:
-psyammo upgrade units can fire bastion turrents as S6

No they can't, Psybolts are special equipment, not a special rule.

Coyote81 wrote:
-give protection from blast templates to the units inside, and might actually reduce the casualties from things like baleflamers.

A Rhino can do that as well, except the Rhino can't potentially hurt the guys inside over and over.

Coyote81 wrote:
-Allows a unit to get a distinct high advantage, sometimes allowing them to ignore the ADL cover save some units would get (aka rhinos often don't get it anymore)

If you are using the roof the get a height advantage then you are not using the Bastion's rules, you are just using an ADL that is high up essentially. The fact that ruins do the exact same thing (and there should be some ruins on every board), it makes this point moot.

Coyote81 wrote:
-LOS block terrain

Not to much.

Coyote81 wrote:
-AV14 target saturation

One Bastion doesn't create AV14 target saturation.

Coyote81 wrote:
-probably many others

Nope there isn't, though there are plenty of points as to why the Bastion isn't great.

- Units inside lose out on shooting, since there is only one fire point on each side. Similarly the Heavy Bolters are on each side so you usually will fire two guys and one Heavy Bolter as opposed to two Psycannons and 8 Storm Bolters. This is very easily achievable for a half-decent opponent.

- Units cannot fire the gun from inside and when on the roof gain no additional benefit from the Bastion except 4+ cover, which the ADL gives anyway. However while on the roof the Bastion can still hurt them.

- If the unit manning the gun dies it is much harder to replace them.

- The Bastion can be destroyed and any good list will be able to deal with it. The ADL cannot be destroyed.

- The Bastion hurts the guys inside for all damage taken.

- Limited access point (if you point the door backwards and you need the unit to bail and cross the field they have further to go, but if you face it forward then when they get out they are out in the open.

- In a Grey Knight army, there's always something better to spend 25pts on.

Only time I can see the Bastion being of use is in a mech-heavy list for AV saturation, but it still suffers most of the points I have mentioned above.

Cheers Jy2, will try it out in a couple of weeks when I finish getting some more models. Will post a bat rep on dakka for you

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
-psyammo upgrade units can fire bastion turrents as S6

No they can't, Psybolts are special equipment, not a special rule.

Actually they can. Read the Psybolt ammo entry. It says any shots the model makes with the listed weapons has +1Str. The model with psybolt ammo is firing one of the weapons from the list.

Actually they can. Read the Psybolt ammo entry. It says any shots the model makes with the listed weapons has +1Str. The model with psybolt ammo is firing one of the weapons from the list.

yep, this is entirely correct. My only beef with the thing is that they should have made the quad gun renamed as autocannons as that's what they are and then psybolts would make that work too. Though I guess that'd be too much cheese XD

Also, I've been debating on the defense line vs the bastion for a while now just cause I really enjoy buildings and here's my thoughts on it from the front page. I know no one really reads that thing anymore since it's about 30 pages now lol so I'll just copy paste it here for ease.

Imperial Bastion - Good at blocking LOS, also a quark of the psybolts rule allows your strike squads for example to fire the emplaced heavy bolters at str 6. Generally 2 should be able to hit something or other most of the time (1 shooting of course with a standard bastion, you usually have 2 fire points out of it too so a psycannon can also shoot). Also if placed correctly, units on the top ruin can get unobstructed shots at lower ground units that maybe trying to hide behind an Aegis and deny them a save. Top floor is a battlement so it's only a 4+ cover and you cannot go to ground for a 2+ cover. You are also very vulnerable to blast weapons as you are most likely crowded up there along with any quad gun / las cannon you bought up there. While power armor still gets saves vs all the terrible building damage rules, it's still alot of str 6 hits for things that get through the AV14 which isn't too hard usually for many armies. Vanquishers, rail guns, tachion arrows, las cannons and multimeltas are still very popular around where I am so be careful using this thing. It's definately a gun box, but that's all it really is. Good as distraction if you ask me. (however, even saying that, I still bought one just to try it out some more. If I find that it does work, I'll change what's here)

You can also do the same trick with the fortress of redemption with heavy bolters. It's kind of neat since you can put them anywhere you want so you should be able to get 12 shots at str 6 at just about anything most times but I've not actually messed with it so I can't claim to know anything.