Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Hm, now that I'm looking it up too, I can't seem to find it either. I remember that it was described that they don't get a cover save simply because you're firing point blank at them. Does anyone have a recollection of this, or was this something from 5th ed that I carried over without checking...?

That's a 5th relic. People at my FLGS (including me) were playing like that for a few months after 6th until someone decided to look it up.

You know what's even more? I just found this on Pg. 62 of the BRB - Defensive Grenades.

"A unit equipped with defensive grenades has the Stealth special rule against all shooting attacks targeting them, so long as:
They are within 8" of the unit firing at them.
They have not gone to ground."

Plague marines just got harder to kill for me. =X

I don't think I'm generally going to be getting within 8' of plague marines anytime soon

In any case, a frield of mine plays CSM and he's been looking at the new DA dex and he's planning to definately go 2 helldrakes for the most part along with possibly getting some noise marines back into the mix to get past all that crazy cover saves especially as I play tau. After much griping about overpriced blastmasters it certainly sounds good.

Alot of the sonic weapons that no one seems to have used lately are incidentially pretty dangerous to any dismounted henchmen we got sitting around. Blastmaster str 8 shots can get through alot of our cover protections too. Seems interesting anyway. His lists have never been that competitive honestly so I'm not worried all that much for my GK's but he is getting a bit better. Wonder what other meta changes we might see from the DA codex that may also spill over to our lists.

At least from the CSM standpoint, ignore cover is going to be pretty useful to get as are AP3 templates anyway. Definately going to be threating to some of my current builds anyway.

 sudojoe wrote:
I don't think I'm generally going to be getting within 8' of plague marines anytime soon

In any case, a frield of mine plays CSM and he's been looking at the new DA dex and he's planning to definately go 2 helldrakes for the most part along with possibly getting some noise marines back into the mix to get past all that crazy cover saves especially as I play tau. After much griping about overpriced blastmasters it certainly sounds good.

Alot of the sonic weapons that no one seems to have used lately are incidentially pretty dangerous to any dismounted henchmen we got sitting around. Blastmaster str 8 shots can get through alot of our cover protections too. Seems interesting anyway. His lists have never been that competitive honestly so I'm not worried all that much for my GK's but he is getting a bit better. Wonder what other meta changes we might see from the DA codex that may also spill over to our lists.

At least from the CSM standpoint, ignore cover is going to be pretty useful to get as are AP3 templates anyway. Definately going to be threating to some of my current builds anyway.

I'm thinking that in Chaos lists, you're either going to need to field more Noise Marines OR Heldrakes. The importance of Ignores Cover in this edition with more terrain and footslogging infantry cannot be stated enough. Especially now with Ravenwing in the mix, you're looking at consistent 2+ and 3+ jink saves running towards you with plasma weaponry (and potentially a teleport homer for turn 2 Deathwing assault...) I'd reckon that even Heldrakes' Baleflamers will have a little difficulty (what with S4 Baleflamer against T5 bikes), but even a single squad of Noise Marines may prove to be a lot more valuable now.

As a result (since this isn't the CSM tactica thread, lol) we're probably going to see a lot more Heldrakes and Noise Marines. Which doesn't bold well for our Henchmen, since they're pretty reliant on non-armour saves (i.e. cover) Therefore, I'm thinking that the traditional loadout of mid-field weaponry (i.e. stormbolters, plasma weapons) may start becoming outmoded in favor of more vanilla GKSS, and we might see a use for one or two Crusaders once more to provide that just-in-case 3++ shielding.

 Red Comet wrote:
Its going to be a really tough nut to crack, but once hits go through the darkshroud will die quickly. It'll die to weight of fire which GK have loads of. I don't think it'll be a huge issue for us to handle. What does bother me is the grenade launcher that fires Rad Grenades. It makes it easier to take down MEQ's now and just about anything.

One thing to keep in mind is that rad shells affect models, not units. Thus, it has to get the majority of units down to T3, otherwise the unit will still be T4 against shooting.

The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

 sudojoe wrote:
The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

I have the codex. It affects models, not the unit.

So I really doubt DA players would take it over plasma tbh

 jy2 wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

I have the codex. It affects models, not the unit.

Please reread your codex, if any models in the unit are hit, the whole unit gets -1T. It's worded weirdly, but it is worded right,

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm in agreement with the Rad Grenades, T3 marines are not fun to have. =/ Anyhoo, regarding the Darkshroud, most lists I'm seeing now for GK field DKs with Heavy Incinerators, or Teleport Packs. Even with a Heavy Psycannon, remember that if you're within (I believe?) 6" of them of the same ruin, they can't claim the terrain's cover save.

I've yet to try a proper game against them, since I've been theoryhammering most of it with my FLGS' local cheese player. Can someone remind me what Auspex does?

Also, with the size of basilisks and other IG tanks, I'd be very hesitant to give them a cover save from the ADL (also depending on the angle of firing), since it does state that you need to be concealed by it to gain the cover save - it doesn't work by simply standing behind it. That being said, my Elysian Tauros Venators are low enough that they can claim that save...

My real worry is only Belial's terminators, and I'm determined that Warp Quake will be more important than ever now.

Vehicles now only need 25% cover which the ADL certainly gives. IG Russ gunlines with cammo netting and stealth will be pretty boss.

The ADL only gives 25% at a certain range. Why? it is still literal line if sight and if my gun can see the bottom of your base, that ADL isn't going to do anything for you. Just because theres a wall on the field doesn't mean you're obscured by it.

Exorcists generally ignore ADL's for example. intervening models are more likely to matter against some weapons.

Food for thought.

sudojoe wrote:The baleflamer is actually str 6

My bad, confusing it with the Burning Brand of Skalathrax. lol.

Jancoran wrote:The ADL only gives 25% at a certain range. Why? it is still literal line if sight and if my gun can see the bottom of your base, that ADL isn't going to do anything for you. Just because theres a wall on the field doesn't mean you're obscured by it.

Exorcists generally ignore ADL's for example. intervening models are more likely to matter against some weapons.

Food for thought.

Typically, bigger vehicles such as Basilisks (what with the gun shield and all) are less than 25% obscured. From what I've seen, pretty much not even LRBTs get much in the way of a cover save if I'm on the 2nd floor of a building, ditto goes with the quadguns that people like to stick behind them.

Coyote81 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

I have the codex. It affects models, not the unit.

Please reread your codex, if any models in the unit are hit, the whole unit gets -1T. It's worded weirdly, but it is worded right,

Having re-re-re-re read the DA codex line and compaired it to the IOS version (there is no difference). I'm reading it more now as the models hit who may be inside of a unit get the -1 to T.

Also updated first page some more on the recent force weapon FAQ changes - FnP debate/hallucinations, vindicare buff.

I'm not sure I entirely understand how to apply the new weapons ranges and wound pool rules at this point however so I'm not sure how to address it yet.

I'm glad they also clarified that my SW+GK list is legal as someone fought me over can I take 2 rune priests or not as an allied detatchment.

Also surprised that they didn't give the SM Telion the same dead eye ruling. Maybe that's tomorrow cause it's still 1.1v

They un nerfed the Vindicare Assassin, according to the new FAQ Look Our Sir no longer applies with regard to the wounds he causes.

New vindicare tactic. Put him on an Icarus and instagib warlords with no LOS and target selection. You heard it here first XD

Or put him in a fortress of redemption and insta gib lots of models simultaniously; typically denying them armor and cover as well as being a large blast and fireable without actual LOS to boot. (not as good vs ICs in TDA of course).

The whole force weapon thing just made my day, also the vinicare ruling, picked one up the other day for $3 not thinking I would use it all the time, not any more

Finally, I can go back to slaying Plague Marines with impunity and actually using my Vindicare once more. I was pretty sick of his wounds being LOS'd. Although the idea of sticking him in an Icarus is pretty awesome. I don't see how putting him in a Fortress of Redemption will deny coversaves to the enemy, though?

The new weapon ranges rules is basically similar to the line-of-sight rule, although it just made shooting a lot more finnicky. From what it seems like to me, weapons can only wound models it is in range with. Ergo, no shooting exactly 24" away at a single model and then causing wounds all the way to the back models that are in reality out of range. It's just going to make shooting at long ranges in larger squads messy... you'll be rolling individual models' weapons to-hits and to-wounds, and then saves, rather than one blob of dice.

So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

valace2 wrote:
They un nerfed the Vindicare Assassin, according to the new FAQ Look Our Sir no longer applies with regard to the wounds he causes.

Thanks for pointing that out. I totally read that the wrong way last night. Vindicare is now awesome sauce.

 tuiman wrote:
So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

I wouldn't take 2 of them for 1k, it's too much.

If you were successful, it'd just mean total plasma spam in the next tier up and also horribly unbalanced anyway. Just use one. Also, any restrictions on your local tournie? like you have to keep the same units in the next tier or anything like that?

 tuiman wrote:
So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

Are you playing on a 4x4 game board at those points? If so, I'd totally rock out 2x DKs with incinerators. Shelve the teleporters bring two squads of strikes and a grand master. Call it a day and tell all your opponents to concede to your power.

Vindicare's are overpriced for what they do. Even assuming they hit every single shot, they still only kill an average of 3.5 terminator models in a 6 turn game. Other than the occasional librarian, pretty much every HQ I come up against has 3+ wounds with an invulnerable save.

Maybe if the Vindicare had more than 2 wounds....but he's so expensive for a single model that dies so quickly. In 3+ cover, a single Tactical squad has pretty good odds of killing him in rapid-fire range. 2 Rifledreads at 48" have good odds to take him out as well.

145 points is not terribly hard to make up though and yes, he usually dies in my games too but it's all about target selection.

Alot of lists depend on that special character or wargear to keep it functional like the DA's and their banner of devestation, or azeral's super 4++ helmet, or that cyclone missle launcher, or plasma cannon in the wrong place, or that multi-melta that just gotta die or that big tank or bastion with a quad gun on it.... There's a fairly good target in just about any and every list that can get some good sniper action. Well cept stuff like daemons wierdly enough lol since we can't break their weargear and have eternal warrior and often multiple wounds and almost no one uses banners or other upgrdes much anymore lol. Or nids actually, I'm not sure how much stuff needs sniping as there's so much multi-wound madness in there and lack of invul saves to begin with and no vehicles lol.

I think that's why people above are rooting for the krackstorm launcher and the icarus lascannon alternatives.

As the icarus is not twin linked, the high BS really helps and the krackstorm is just amazing lol (though I'm not sure any tourny will really allow it since the fortress is so big and more often than not, terrain is already pre-placed. Instead of outright banning them, I've also seen a smart TO just say that basically if you can't actually find any place to put it down, you don't get to use it and forfit the cost of your fortification's points. Pretty effectively made it so no one risked brining a skypad or fortress Though it wasn't specifically banned at all.

(I'm almost 70% through with the page 1 rewrite! woots)

MadmanMSU wrote:
Vindicare's are overpriced for what they do. Even assuming they hit every single shot, they still only kill an average of 3.5 terminator models in a 6 turn game. Other than the occasional librarian, pretty much every HQ I come up against has 3+ wounds with an invulnerable save.

Maybe if the Vindicare had more than 2 wounds....but he's so expensive for a single model that dies so quickly. In 3+ cover, a single Tactical squad has pretty good odds of killing him in rapid-fire range. 2 Rifledreads at 48" have good odds to take him out as well.

Vindicares aren't a hammer for smashing your opponent's warlord; they're a scalpel. Precise and subtle cuts. They're there to deal with that one thing you can't bear to have on the table. Meltagun getting too close? Gone. Nobz in boyz squads? Gone. Land Raider you can't take care of? Gone. The only reason why they die so quickly is because they're so damn terrifying, which can be another asset depending upon the game you're playing.

If you've gotten your Vindi in 12" range of Marines, I would expect him to be gone. He's not a beatstick. You need to protect him a little.

The vindicare post-FAQ is the same as the vindicare pre-6th. He hasn't really gotten better. He's just being his old self once again.

With that said, the same weaknesses still exist. Namely, he is still quite fragile and an easy First Blood target. To me, nothing has really changed about him. I stopped using him back in 5th when he was actually quite accurate. I may use him again in casual games, but in competitive ones, I'd probably stick with the psyfleman or dreadknight (the psyfleman for its Reinforced Aegis).

 jy2 wrote:
The vindicare post-FAQ is the same as the vindicare pre-6th. He hasn't really gotten better. He's just being his old self once again.

With that said, the same weaknesses still exist. Namely, he is still quite fragile and an easy First Blood target. To me, nothing has really changed about him. I stopped using him back in 5th when he was actually quite accurate. I may use him again in casual games, but in competitive ones, I'd probably stick with the psyfleman or dreadknight (the psyfleman for its Reinforced Aegis).

Speaking of... I've really missed reinforced Aegis. I wish "AV" wasn't such a bad stat now. -4 on leadership is super troll than a 5+ deny.

 jy2 wrote:
I may use him again in casual games, but in competitive ones, I'd probably stick with the psyfleman or dreadknight (the psyfleman for its Reinforced Aegis).

^^^ This. I get where everyone is coming from. The vindi can be an awesome scalpel, but my point is that he's so hit or miss depending on what type of army you're facing, what the terrain is set up like, what the mission parameters are....just too many "ifs". That coupled with his low survivability....you can place him all the way in the rear, and a single drop-pod of tac marines will take him out. I don't usually play against other GK players, but the last time I did and one brought a Vindi, I just scooted two Anni Barges up and took him out on the first turn...easy 145 points. It's that kind of vulnerability that needs to be weighed when you put him in your army.

Still, with that said, I have a narrative campaign coming up at my LGS, and he might see some use again because we will have foreknowledge of the opponent's army. Might even use my Mordrak/Lysander list to beef him up to a 2+ cover save again

 sudojoe wrote:

I think that's why people above are rooting for the krackstorm launcher and the icarus lascannon alternatives.

As the icarus is not twin linked, the high BS really helps and the krackstorm is just amazing lol (though I'm not sure any tourny will really allow it since the fortress is so big and more often than not, terrain is already pre-placed. Instead of outright banning them, I've also seen a smart TO just say that basically if you can't actually find any place to put it down, you don't get to use it and forfit the cost of your fortification's points. Pretty effectively made it so no one risked brining a skypad or fortress Though it wasn't specifically banned at all.

(I'm almost 70% through with the page 1 rewrite! woots)

Try and draw line of sight from those missiles to anything. Krack Storm pretty much always fires indirect, so the assassins BS doesn't come into play.
-Matt

So with the FAQ does this mean the coateaz can roll for 3 powers on a chart since he can now replace hammerhand?

 buddha wrote:
So with the FAQ does this mean the coateaz can roll for 3 powers on a chart since he can now replace hammerhand?

The same FAQ says Coteaz can take 2 powers.