Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
For a new codex, I would like to see my Shining Spears either get better for their cost (or) cheaper, and for my Guardians to get a longer range on their catapults. That's it, really.

Hell, an improvement on all Catapult ranges would be a pretty big benefit that would affect foot Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Shining Spears, Vypers, and all Eldar tanks, so I would just take that and be a damn happy player!

Just upping normal Catapults to 18" and Avenger catapults to 24" would be a simple and very effective change. Though I woldn;t mind a higher range on my Shuriken Cannons, though. Even 36" would be damn cool.

Personally, I think shuricats should be 24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire with Rending. Give Dire Avengers Relentless.

 Morachi wrote:
Rogue Trader was even worse... Battle Cannon mounted on an Ork bike. Or firing ALL missiles from a CML at once... you ended up with a car tyre sized template.

As far as I recall, both of those were still present in second edition - the former as an Ork Special character who knocked himself backwards when he fired the cannon (Wazdakka).

So, who really wants the Solitaire to return with blind grenades and the rest of her old abilities?

The Eldar codex may not have been the most OP of its time but, imo, the Solitaire was the most OP model of its day.


Personally, I'm really hoping for something like the Craftworld Eldar book but a little better balanced.

On-Topic-
Any idea of when we would be seeong the new Eldar?

We talking about August or closer to November-December?

 gorgon wrote:
The 2nd edition Codex: Eldar was the most broken codex ever released by GW for any edition of the game, and guardians with shuricats in that book were probably the single best basic troop type ever. It certainly was the book that really established Eldar, but balance is not a word that should ever be used in connection with that book.

How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with. Sure, there were "army lists" but most of them were originally written for Rogue Trader and only slightly modified for the army lists that came with 2nd Ed. Or are you talking about internal balance? Because again, compared to the army lists that were around at the time, it was waaaaaay more balanced.

 Shandara wrote:
Unlikely, since the old OLD guardians already came with lasguns/blasters..

GW wouldn't want us to use them again!

 Absolutionis wrote:
Yeah, but who actually has those anymore?

Then again, they brought back Stranglewebs and Splinter Guns for the Tyranids.

I do!

 Captain Avatar wrote:
So, who really wants the Solitaire to return with blind grenades and the rest of her old abilities?

The Eldar codex may not have been the most OP of its time but, imo, the Solitaire was the most OP model of its day.

Nuh-uh. Whilst the Solitaire was insane, it was the equipment in that version that was most OOP, not the actual characters.

Anyway, it would be easy to bring back the Solitaire and have them perfectly fluffy. I'd start with Lelith Hesperax's stats and start from there. Very easy to make a fluffy, awesome, but non-overpowered character if you consider Lelith reasonable.

so hoping this turns out to be true!

The eldar need a revamp to be 6th edition competitive and this looks like it could be it!

Plastic wraithguard? Hmm, looks like it could be time to get myself a unit...

 whembly wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Dark/Craftworld Combined Codex!

Panic...

Huh?

Why? DE just got their codex.

Unless... I'm missing something here?

Some would argue that the Dark Eldar codex is unplayable now, at least not the way it was intended to when it was released November 2010.

Looking foward to plastic Wraithguard, those guys are way too expensive right now

 Fifty wrote:
How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with.

Second. The Wolves came first.

And if we're fair, not much was 'balanced' in 2nd Ed. Be it WS7 Genestealers or Heavy-Flamer Template Warp Spiders, so many things can ruin the enemy side with very little effort.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with.

Second. The Wolves came first.

And if we're fair, not much was 'balanced' in 2nd Ed. Be it WS7 Genestealers or Heavy-Flamer Template Warp Spiders, so many things can ruin the enemy side with very little effort.

As a veteran of 2nd edition, H.B.M.C. speaks truth here.

The Space Wolves codex was first, then it was Eldar.

However, lest we forget the crazy codex of the Orks at that time; I;ve seen more Ork players in 2nd edition wipe themselves out (or at least heavily contribute) due to the crazy random nature of their rules. Their Pulsa Rockets were wicked, and if the player rolled fortunately, armies sat on their can for turns while the Orks mopped up. And yes, Space Wolf terminators were the OP unit of that time until later clarifications were rendered late in the edition.

However, with a potential 6th edition Eldar 'dex on the rise, I look forward to it as currently, their points-scale is way out of wack with current units. Wouldn't mind seeing the Warlocks actually become combat-casters like they should have been instead of a buff for a unit it was attached to. Not sure what Swooping Hawks could be used for other than air-intercept abilities and strafing/bombing?

Anyway, hopeful to see more on them and hope they do them correctly (big hope I know)....

Huh, second, so it is. I would still say my point is pretty valid. Funny how 18 years can play tricks with your memory though.

 Fifty wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
The 2nd edition Codex: Eldar was the most broken codex ever released by GW for any edition of the game, and guardians with shuricats in that book were probably the single best basic troop type ever. It certainly was the book that really established Eldar, but balance is not a word that should ever be used in connection with that book.

How is that even possible? At the time of release it was the only Codex, so how could it be unbalanced when there was nothing for it to be balanced with. Sure, there were "army lists" but most of them were originally written for Rogue Trader and only slightly modified for the army lists that came with 2nd Ed. Or are you talking about internal balance? Because again, compared to the army lists that were around at the time, it was waaaaaay more balanced.

I played competitively during 2nd ed. At the 1997 U.S. GT, 5 of the top 10 in both battle points and overall scoring were Eldar, including the overall winner and top BP scorer. That year the U.S. champ played the Canadian champ -- who played Eldar -- at Games Day. I hazard to guess it'd have been more like 7 or 8 out of 10 if you let today's powergamers at that codex. Heck, the next year the returning champ brought an all Harlequin force and won again, albeit not as easily.

There wasn't much in that codex that wasn't good, and IIRC Exarches, Warp Spiders, jetbikes and shuricat Guardians were probably the brightest stars. Shuricat Guardians in small squad sizes under 100 pts (believe it was 96 pts for 6 @ 16 pts each) were just silly, as units under 100 pts gave up no VPs unless killed to the last man in that scoring system, which was huge. Meanwhile they each pumped out a sustained fire die at S4 and a hefty -2 save mod. Mowed down SM like a John Deere attacking bluegrass.

Pulsa Rokkit Orks could probably compete, but note that you're also talking about one extreme build versus the variety of things the Eldar could throw at you. Umpteen assault cannon Wolf Guard SWs also get an honorable mention here, but again, that's one build. Also note that those were the first 3 codices released. Balance got better in the later codices.

I can understand why an Eldar player would wax nostalgic over that codex, because it came off like a labor of love by Rick P. and company. And certainly it captured the idea of Eldar having the best tech, because they certainly did even if it didn't make any sense in terms of game balance, LOL. But it was clearly far out of balance with the stuff that came later like IG, UM, Angels of Death, Tyranids, etc.

Edit: Getting this back on topic, IMO they should look to the 2nd ed codex for the right flavor and feel moreso than the 3rd ed. Craftworld subdex. I would have liked to see what Phil Kelly would have come up with had he not been writing the 4th ed. book in the era of stripped-down army lists as championed by Alessio. The new CSM book is solid if unspectacular, but I *really* like the DA and Daemon books, so I'm anxious to see how Eldar turn out.

I admit: TL;DR

IMHO, after reading the first post.. Eldar need a simplified codex, not a codex with more do-dads. Adding more units will result in a combination of the following effects:

1a. Multiple units competing in the same niche. Regardless of how many specialist units the writers add, there will be one or two units that excell in their chosen niche and the rest will be consigned to the shelf-space of doom. The eldar ALREADY have this problem. Adding more units is a case of exacerbating what is already very unwieldy.

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.

2. Units equipped with core-rule breaking abilities in a ham-fisted attempt to make units unique. This causes game balance problems across codexes.

3. The more units you add, the poorer the codex transitions across game editions, as units with fiddly rules are most affected by core game mechanic revamps. Granted, we have just started in a new edition, so the Eldar may get their time in the sun - however, it is equally likely that they'll get eclipsed by the following codecies and suffer another long night.

I started playing 40k with Eldar years ago, so I am looking forward to this new codex.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
Dark/Craftworld Combined Codex!

Panic...

Huh?

Why? DE just got their codex.

Unless... I'm missing something here?

Some would argue that the Dark Eldar codex is unplayable now, at least not the way it was intended to when it was released November 2010.

REALLY?

I'm curbstomping with my list now. Even when the deamon release... DE ain't 'fraid of Daemons.

I think the key that many DE players are missing in 6th is that now you can PREMEASURE! That's an epically awesome "function". You just need to know the possible range of your enemy (stay away from the high volume of shots) and position your army in range.

EDIT: Solitarie ought to come back... with Mephiston -ish rules. But I wanna take a whole army of them NOW!

 keezus wrote:
I admit: TL;DR

IMHO, after reading the first post.. Eldar need a simplified codex, not a codex with more do-dads. Adding more units will result in a combination of the following effects:

1a. Multiple units competing in the same niche. Regardless of how many specialist units the writers add, there will be one or two units that excell in their chosen niche and the rest will be consigned to the shelf-space of doom. The eldar ALREADY have this problem. Adding more units is a case of exacerbating what is already very unwieldy.

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.

2. Units equipped with core-rule breaking abilities in a ham-fisted attempt to make units unique. This causes game balance problems across codexes.

3. The more units you add, the poorer the codex transitions across game editions, as units with fiddly rules are most affected by core game mechanic revamps. Granted, we have just started in a new edition, so the Eldar may get their time in the sun - however, it is equally likely that they'll get eclipsed by the following codecies and suffer another long night.

I agree. Only add material to units that already exist, rather than more units. Make the Eldar more fun to play.

One thing I think would be interesting, even if it's just to look neat? Allow Dark Reapers to take Shuriken Cannons across their whole squad. It wouldn't be terribly effective versus reaper launchers, but would look cool.

 keezus wrote:

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.
.

I'd like to introduce you to my friends Mutilator and Warp Talon...

If we're talking about giving Shuriken Cannons out, then we really need the option for a DA exarch to take one. With the recent faq ruling about allocating wounds and range, atm the Boys in Blue can only kill out to 18"; allowing an attached exarch to take a Shurikan would be both fluffy and increase their effectiveness.

They can borrow them from the Dark Reapers. Not like anyone there is using them...

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 keezus wrote:
I admit: TL;DR

IMHO, after reading the first post.. Eldar need a simplified codex, not a codex with more do-dads. Adding more units will result in a combination of the following effects:

1a. Multiple units competing in the same niche. Regardless of how many specialist units the writers add, there will be one or two units that excell in their chosen niche and the rest will be consigned to the shelf-space of doom. The eldar ALREADY have this problem. Adding more units is a case of exacerbating what is already very unwieldy.

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.

2. Units equipped with core-rule breaking abilities in a ham-fisted attempt to make units unique. This causes game balance problems across codexes.

3. The more units you add, the poorer the codex transitions across game editions, as units with fiddly rules are most affected by core game mechanic revamps. Granted, we have just started in a new edition, so the Eldar may get their time in the sun - however, it is equally likely that they'll get eclipsed by the following codecies and suffer another long night.

I agree. Only add material to units that already exist, rather than more units. Make the Eldar more fun to play.

One thing I think would be interesting, even if it's just to look neat? Allow Dark Reapers to take Shuriken Cannons across their whole squad. It wouldn't be terribly effective versus reaper launchers, but would look cool.

Agreed.

Though I'd like to see the Shrieker Ammunition redesigned to make it's lethality something similar to the Dark Eldar Stinger of old. I like the thought of the Dire Avenger Exarch with the cannon though as it fits somewhat with their aspect a bit.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 keezus wrote:

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.
.

I'd like to introduce you to my friends Mutilator and Warp Talon...

Burning Chariot of Tzeentch would also like a word.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 keezus wrote:

1b. Given GW's track record... Units that are receiving new kits generally have product-moving rules. This means that the majority of the legacy specialists can keep each other company of the shelf-space of doom so they don't get lonely.
.

I'd like to introduce you to my friends Mutilator and Warp Talon...

Burning Chariot of Tzeentch would also like a word.

As would the Nephilim, Dark Talon and LS Vengeance...

Pyrovore.

OT: Eldar were not the top of the tech tree in second edition. Space Marines were.

And the guys looking at Shurikien Catapults with rose tinted glasses are forgetting that Jams meant losing the next TWO turns of shooting.

I hope CWE get a good, balanced code. I have been playing since day one of RT and to me they are the quintessential 40k army.

 Souleater wrote:
Pyrovore.

OT: Eldar were not the top of the tech tree in second edition. Space Marines were.

And the guys looking at Shurikien Catapults with rose tinted glasses are forgetting that Jams meant losing the next TWO turns of shooting.

I hope CWE get a good, balanced code. I have been playing since day one of RT and to me they are the quintessential 40k army.

Jams were largely irrelevant since you could field about two Guardians for every tactical marine. It was still roughly twice the firepower in terms of volume, and the shuricat had a glorious -2 save mod. There is no argument for tactical SMs with bolters over Guardians with shuricats -- the shuricat Guardians were that dominant, and tacticals that bad. If you're going to talk about Terminators and assault cannons, different thing.

Odd. As somebody playing Nids against Eldar back then I hardly found one in six of their guns falling silent for two turns to be 'irrelevant'.

True, their firepower was higher but as you say a large part of that was due to a higher number of very squishy bodies. The actual rate of fire averaged out at 1.5 shots per turn (not counting the second missed turn of shooting)

Perhaps my memory is tricking me but didn't SM get to fire twice to full range if they didn't move back then? I confess I might be confusing that with another edition, possibly RT.

I used to play regularly against eldar in 2nd edition using orks at the time and they were pretty brutal (the player was very good though).

I still have a copy of that codex and some things in it I would love to see back in some shape or form in the next one (I play eldar now).

One of those would be warp spiders using the flame template. Perhaps strength 4, ap -, template with rending and/or instant death?

That would be a unit I would pay 22pts per model for!

Can't see GW doing it though. Maybe add the rending to the current rules but not putting the template back in.

rohansoldier wrote:
I used to play regularly against eldar in 2nd edition using orks at the time and they were pretty brutal (the player was very good though).

I still have a copy of that codex and some things in it I would love to see back in some shape or form in the next one (I play eldar now).

One of those would be warp spiders using the flame template. Perhaps strength 4, ap -, template with rending and/or instant death?

That would be a unit I would pay 22pts per model for!

Can't see GW doing it though. Maybe add the rending to the current rules but not putting the template back in.

I -might- play them if they had rending...

But probably not.

I love the current Warp Spiders. I could see them getting Rending if their price stayed the same, otherwise I think they just need a slight points drop and they're fine.

 Souleater wrote:
Odd. As somebody playing Nids against Eldar back then I hardly found one in six of their guns falling silent for two turns to be 'irrelevant'.

True, their firepower was higher but as you say a large part of that was due to a higher number of very squishy bodies. The actual rate of fire averaged out at 1.5 shots per turn (not counting the second missed turn of shooting)

Perhaps my memory is tricking me but didn't SM get to fire twice to full range if they didn't move back then? I confess I might be confusing that with another edition, possibly RT.

That is correct. Also, let us not forget about range modifiers for short and long range spending on the weapons used.

A tactic of mine was using a Veteran Tactical squad, and once in short-range, draw pistols for the +2 mod coupled with the BS of 5, made for some blistering shooting.

Storm Bolters, I believe, had one or two sustained fire dice and the Assault Cannon had 3. Dreadnought Missile launchers had Salvo-fire which allowed for 1 sustained fire die (thier multi-meltas could be used as heavy flamers as a firing-mode option). So marines, even costing about 30 points per model back then, could match firepower with anyone. Eldar Guardians at that time were probably the only squad in that codex that could actually number 10 models in the squad. The aspects only reached to around 7, so they were very different. The eldar had higher movement rates for the most part despite their crazy wargear and psychic powers.

Just a though, but shouldn't the first post be updated with the newest rumours on page 13? I know the title has, but it seems to have been overlooked in the actual post.

Am I the only person deeply saddened by not a single mention of an transport able to effectively transport assault troops? They'd have to basically break the game mechanics to make an Eldar assault squad viable in 6th Edition(well, except for Harlies).