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 Macok wrote:

 Pershore wrote:
Haven't seen this posted in the thread. In the WD battle report a Wave Serpent "fires its serpent shield". It doesn't sound mega powerful - it kills 2 Necron Warriors - but it maybe another nice little capability for the Serpents to have.

I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

Just pre-ordered my Wraithknight and the new codex.

I just can wait to place it in front of my friend who sometimes cheats and says some crazy rules for his CSMs and has upgraded them to the max.

Him: Now my terminators will crush you
Me: cough cough, Place Wraithknight!

I'm still torn on whether or not to preorder a Wraithknight. I know I'm getting the codex, the flier, and Illic for now, but I'm not sure if I want it yet. On the other hand, if I do now is the time to buy so I can take advantage of preorder discounts to get more off than normal... Decisions, decisions.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:

 Pershore wrote:
Haven't seen this posted in the thread. In the WD battle report a Wave Serpent "fires its serpent shield". It doesn't sound mega powerful - it kills 2 Necron Warriors - but it maybe another nice little capability for the Serpents to have.

I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

This. Nice to see that someone gets it. I forgot about the changing all ranged attacks to S8.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:

 Pershore wrote:
Haven't seen this posted in the thread. In the WD battle report a Wave Serpent "fires its serpent shield". It doesn't sound mega powerful - it kills 2 Necron Warriors - but it maybe another nice little capability for the Serpents to have.

I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

Way to take the worst examples ever and intentionally or non, mislead.

The role vise example is the rhino, not razorback. Although even this is a bad comparison.

So upgrading to TL ass cannon is unnecessary.

That gives us a 35 point 10 model carrying unit with 2 fire points which goes only 6" less then WS.

The shield is overrated, since you will get shot down by HP before that shield makes its points. I would personally leave it if i can.

The extra AV is counterparted by the fire points .

The extra weapon is useless if you try to use the vehicle to it's intentions, which is to deliver its max 18" ranged infantry, because you go flat out to get there.

If you are going to make a comparison don't make it with the most overpriced transport in a meq codex(which is a kitted out razorback), make it against a rhino or even better a chimera, that thing has nearly twice the fire power same capacity and 5 fire points, only goes 6" less per turn and is half the wave serpent points.

 adamsouza wrote:
Can plastic Warhounds be that far off now ?

Let's hope not. A plastic Warhound would be amazing.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Morachi wrote:

 JOHIRA wrote:

KaiyaA wrote:
Is it better to pre-order stuff or buy the codex first in you guys' opinion?

Never pre-order anything. EVER.

Pre-ordering is the fanboy's ultimate demonstration of having more money than sense. When you pre-order a product, what you say to the company that makes it is, "I am so impulsive/uncritical/unwilling to control my spending that I will give you my money even before you show me a product... I just want the promise of being the first to have the product. Whatever it is. Pre-ordering is nothing more than giving a company your permission to cheat you with a disappointing upcoming product.

You are a consumer. You have the money. Therefore you have the power. Make the producer prove to you that they deserve your money by putting the physical product in your hands. When you pre-order, you disempower yourself in order to have the sliver of nerd-cred at having the latest new shiney a day or so before other people do... ignoring that the moment another new shiney comes out, your nerd cred will completely evaporate.

Unless, like myself, you're now just collecting the miniatures... rarely playing the game itself.

Pre-ordering a codex or other kind of books makes sense. You are right about everything else.

There are multiple ways to enjoy this hobby, collecting is one. Just because I don't know if a model is great or crap in the rules doesn't mean I won't get it personally. It seriously grinds my gears that Game focused hobbyists (who have every right to enjoy the hobby as such) assume everyone is on the same page as them.

I preordered a Wraithknight and I'm proud.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Can plastic Warhounds be that far off now ?

Let's hope not. A plastic Warhound would be amazing.

That would trample on Forge World too much, and GW doesn't like to do that anymore. It'll more likely be a HoundKnight with variations to make it a WolfKnight, DarkKnight, BloodKnight, HellKnight, and KnightTemplar.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Can plastic Warhounds be that far off now ?

Let's hope not. A plastic Warhound would be amazing.

It's called a Leviathan Crusader with creative basing. And at full RRP is still 20$ cheaper than a Wraithknight.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:

 Pershore wrote:
Haven't seen this posted in the thread. In the WD battle report a Wave Serpent "fires its serpent shield". It doesn't sound mega powerful - it kills 2 Necron Warriors - but it maybe another nice little capability for the Serpents to have.

I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

Assigning points is not simply a matter of comparing them to another army, or a chart based on a vehicle's capabilities. Game designs that use such methods are usually terribly unbalanced. It is important to judge the army as a whole. Most Eldar troops do not have alot of armor. Further, on the whole they do not have as long range weapons as the Tau. Quite simply, they are very reliant on transports. If the troop/vehicle combo is too expensive then the army will not work.

Why wouldn't GW release a plastic warhound? They already stomped on FW with the superheavy tanks. They would make $ hand over fist if they released such an awesome model in plastic for their upcoming Apoc release.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:

 Pershore wrote:
Haven't seen this posted in the thread. In the WD battle report a Wave Serpent "fires its serpent shield". It doesn't sound mega powerful - it kills 2 Necron Warriors - but it maybe another nice little capability for the Serpents to have.

I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

One of the biggest issue Serpents have is the premium they pay on weapons, which is what drives them into the unusable category rather than just being overpriced. There is no way that a twin linked assault cannon is equivilent to any of the Eldar armaments, it is massively superior to Scatter Lasers and the EML particularly when you factor in BS4. The closest Marine equivilent is a basic Razor with Psybolt, which is half the point cost. Essentially if you combine a BA Rhino and a GK Razorback into one tank you are getting something close to a Serpent, which comes out at under 100pts easily. That doesn't even factor in their importance to the army, Eldar are always going to be far more fragile than Marines, so rely much more of transports to keep their guys alive.

 spaceelf wrote:

Assigning points is not simply a matter of comparing them to another army, or a chart based on a vehicle's capabilities. Game designs that use such methods are usually terribly unbalanced. It is important to judge the army as a whole. Most Eldar troops do not have alot of armor. Further, on the whole they do not have as long range weapons as the Tau. Quite simply, they are very reliant on transports. If the troop/vehicle combo is too expensive then the army will not work.

While that is a valid point, I do have serious issues with that becoming an excuse of why your skimmer transport with the same capacity should be better armed, faster, more durable and cheaper than the closest equivalent (the devilfish).

Just noticed the Eldar FAQ is already out. They are really streamlining the process.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:

Assigning points is not simply a matter of comparing them to another army, or a chart based on a vehicle's capabilities. Game designs that use such methods are usually terribly unbalanced. It is important to judge the army as a whole. Most Eldar troops do not have alot of armor. Further, on the whole they do not have as long range weapons as the Tau. Quite simply, they are very reliant on transports. If the troop/vehicle combo is too expensive then the army will not work.

While that is a valid point, I do have serious issues with that becoming an excuse of why your skimmer transport with the same capacity should be better armed, faster, more durable and cheaper than the closest equivalent (the devilfish).

Yeah, they really dropped the ball on devilfish, although a sms devilfish is half decent imho. (still expensive)

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Just noticed the Eldar FAQ is already out. They are really streamlining the process.

Well it seems to concern a FW-level weapon entry errata only. I guess monofilament weapons are getting special rules at least!

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:
I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

Sure it's reasonably priced. That is why they almost ceased to exist in the game. Because they are "appropriately priced".

They are still 3HP AV10 at back, are hit on 3+ in CC no matter how fast they travel and may disembark troops only after moving 6", And it's BS3. It's waaay too easy to destroy for 100 points.
And as previously mentioned, your comparison to Razorback is not a good one. 100 points is a Night Scythe. Do you think that Wave Serpent at 100 is any shape or form comparable with it? To Ghost Ark with twin scatters?

Last edition, when transports where The Kings, Serpents were ok-ish. You really think that edition that pounded them to the ground should not give them any discount?

And yes, if you read my post you'd know that I want to have a cheaper transport. If it means removing some of things, fine. If they have to leave everything as-is then fine, decrease the cost even by little bit. Don't add half-assed upgrades that won't do anything and leave it so expensive.

EDIT: If it changes anything, I also think that Devilfish could use some price decrease.

Looking at the Wraithguard, it appears the arms can all be magnatized for the full compliment of options. I like that alot...

 Absolutionis wrote:
That would trample on Forge World too much, and GW doesn't like to do that anymore. It'll more likely be a HoundKnight with variations to make it a WolfKnight, DarkKnight, BloodKnight, HellKnight, and KnightTemplar.

Yeah but with a new Apoc just around the corner, it makes sense to do a Warhound (usable by all Imperial and Chaos players).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but with a new Apoc just around the corner, it makes sense to do a Warhound (usable by all Imperial and Chaos players).

The next big Imperial kit is almost guaranteed to be a new unit, most likely a Knight variant. Still usable by all human armies and not threading on FW's turf.

Not that I wouldn't like to see a plastic Warhound...

Edit: Okay, this is both awkward and embarrassing, what with the TypeKnight count in the post right above mine.

The KnightKnight probably, going off current naming trends.

with the plethora of Spahse Knights: Ultra Knight, Spikey Knight, Dark Knight, Blood Knight, White Knight, Smurph Knight (oxymoron), Templar Knight, Wolf Knight and it will all just cost an extra $50 for the suppliment to use!

For me the most exciting part of this release is the new decal sheet. It has my craftworld symbol.

 Macok wrote:
Sure it's reasonably priced. That is why they almost ceased to exist in the game. Because they are "appropriately priced".

They are still 3HP AV10 at back, are hit on 3+ in CC no matter how fast they travel and may disembark troops only after moving 6", And it's BS3. It's waaay too easy to destroy for 100 points.
And as previously mentioned, your comparison to Razorback is not a good one. 100 points is a Night Scythe. Do you think that Wave Serpent at 100 is any shape or form comparable with it? To Ghost Ark with twin scatters?

Last edition, when transports where The Kings, Serpents were ok-ish. You really think that edition that pounded them to the ground should not give them any discount?

And yes, if you read my post you'd know that I want to have a cheaper transport. If it means removing some of things, fine. If they have to leave everything as-is then fine, decrease the cost even by little bit. Don't add half-assed upgrades that won't do anything and leave it so expensive.

EDIT: If it changes anything, I also think that Devilfish could use some price decrease.

I'm fine with Eldar having a cheaper wave serpent, as long as its the ability is stripped accordingly. As it is currently, the WS is priced about right at the 100-115 range. Also, the Devilfish isn't getting a points reduction for a long, long time, so I think my original point stands, the WS is priced right in comparison to other similarly-roled vehicles that have been pointed since 6th edition came out. Yes, both the razorback and devilfish are overly expensive points-wise IMO, but GW seems to (foolishly) think vehicles work the way they are supposed to and doesn't seem too concerned about reducing their cost.

Instead of making the WS cheaper, maybe Eldar just need a metal bawks like the Rhino. Only then, Eldar players will be mad because they now have to field a free First Blood gimme every game.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:
Sure it's reasonably priced. That is why they almost ceased to exist in the game. Because they are "appropriately priced".

They are still 3HP AV10 at back, are hit on 3+ in CC no matter how fast they travel and may disembark troops only after moving 6", And it's BS3. It's waaay too easy to destroy for 100 points.
And as previously mentioned, your comparison to Razorback is not a good one. 100 points is a Night Scythe. Do you think that Wave Serpent at 100 is any shape or form comparable with it? To Ghost Ark with twin scatters?

Last edition, when transports where The Kings, Serpents were ok-ish. You really think that edition that pounded them to the ground should not give them any discount?

And yes, if you read my post you'd know that I want to have a cheaper transport. If it means removing some of things, fine. If they have to leave everything as-is then fine, decrease the cost even by little bit. Don't add half-assed upgrades that won't do anything and leave it so expensive.

EDIT: If it changes anything, I also think that Devilfish could use some price decrease.

I'm fine with Eldar having a cheaper wave serpent, as long as its the ability is stripped accordingly. As it is currently, the WS is priced about right at the 100-115 range. Also, the Devilfish isn't getting a points reduction for a long, long time, so I think my original point stands, the WS is priced right in comparison to other similarly-roled vehicles that have been pointed since 6th edition came out. Yes, both the razorback and devilfish are overly expensive points-wise IMO, but GW seems to (foolishly) think vehicles work the way they are supposed to and doesn't seem too concerned about reducing their cost.

Instead of making the WS cheaper, maybe Eldar just need a metal bawks like the Rhino. Only then, Eldar players will be mad because they now have to field a free First Blood gimme every game.

There is no arguing whether or not the Wave Serpent is overpriced. Did you gloss over the comparison to the night scythe? How about the Valkyrie or Vendetta? Any of those three pounds the Wave Serpent into the ground, at similar points costs. The fact is that the Wave Serpent needs to be cheaper to be competitive. We all have boat loads of them from 5th edition, however, so they're going to stay overpriced and useless.

 Macok wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:
I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

Sure it's reasonably priced. That is why they almost ceased to exist in the game. Because they are "appropriately priced".

They are still 3HP AV10 at back, are hit on 3+ in CC no matter how fast they travel and may disembark troops only after moving 6", And it's BS3. It's waaay too easy to destroy for 100 points.
And as previously mentioned, your comparison to Razorback is not a good one. 100 points is a Night Scythe. Do you think that Wave Serpent at 100 is any shape or form comparable with it? To Ghost Ark with twin scatters?

Last edition, when transports where The Kings, Serpents were ok-ish. You really think that edition that pounded them to the ground should not give them any discount?

And yes, if you read my post you'd know that I want to have a cheaper transport. If it means removing some of things, fine. If they have to leave everything as-is then fine, decrease the cost even by little bit. Don't add half-assed upgrades that won't do anything and leave it so expensive.

EDIT: If it changes anything, I also think that Devilfish could use some price decrease.

I really hate this WAAC attitude players have been developing over the years. They want an auto-win unit that requires no thinking or tactics to win. Sorry, there's nothing wrong with the Wave Serpent. Like everything else in the game, it gets expensive the more goodies you put on it. So, run it bare-bones. Look at Dark Eldar. Talk about paying premiums. They are regarded by most as a bottom tier army (like their Craftworld kin) yet in the right hands they are devastating. Yes both Eldar armies are fragile and you pay for your stuff. Used properly, they are a very tough list.
But, whatever. People want to argue and whine about little toy soldiers...

BTW: The Necron flyer transport is under costed. Not a very good argument to the Wave Serpent. Comparing a flyer to a ground vehicle? Come on now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arschbombe wrote:
For me the most exciting part of this release is the new decal sheet. It has my craftworld symbol.

Is there a link to the new sheet? I would love to see it, Cheers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JB_Man wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:
Sure it's reasonably priced. That is why they almost ceased to exist in the game. Because they are "appropriately priced".

They are still 3HP AV10 at back, are hit on 3+ in CC no matter how fast they travel and may disembark troops only after moving 6", And it's BS3. It's waaay too easy to destroy for 100 points.
And as previously mentioned, your comparison to Razorback is not a good one. 100 points is a Night Scythe. Do you think that Wave Serpent at 100 is any shape or form comparable with it? To Ghost Ark with twin scatters?

Last edition, when transports where The Kings, Serpents were ok-ish. You really think that edition that pounded them to the ground should not give them any discount?

And yes, if you read my post you'd know that I want to have a cheaper transport. If it means removing some of things, fine. If they have to leave everything as-is then fine, decrease the cost even by little bit. Don't add half-assed upgrades that won't do anything and leave it so expensive.

EDIT: If it changes anything, I also think that Devilfish could use some price decrease.

I'm fine with Eldar having a cheaper wave serpent, as long as its the ability is stripped accordingly. As it is currently, the WS is priced about right at the 100-115 range. Also, the Devilfish isn't getting a points reduction for a long, long time, so I think my original point stands, the WS is priced right in comparison to other similarly-roled vehicles that have been pointed since 6th edition came out. Yes, both the razorback and devilfish are overly expensive points-wise IMO, but GW seems to (foolishly) think vehicles work the way they are supposed to and doesn't seem too concerned about reducing their cost.

Instead of making the WS cheaper, maybe Eldar just need a metal bawks like the Rhino. Only then, Eldar players will be mad because they now have to field a free First Blood gimme every game.

There is no arguing whether or not the Wave Serpent is overpriced. Did you gloss over the comparison to the night scythe? How about the Valkyrie or Vendetta? Any of those three pounds the Wave Serpent into the ground, at similar points costs. The fact is that the Wave Serpent needs to be cheaper to be competitive. We all have boat loads of them from 5th edition, however, so they're going to stay overpriced and useless.

You might not be aware of this, but GW NEEDS to sell kits. They don't really care much about balance. It's all about selling the big ticket models. Look at flyers. In general, they are the most expensive kits in an army and people are "encouraged" to run 3 of them. Not including Allies. Bottom line, GW sells models first and worries about rules and balance second. Maybe third or fourth...

Nocturnus wrote:

 Macok wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Macok wrote:
I think most Eldar players would love a price decrease on now overcosted transport and not some gimmicks that artificially increase it's price.
I'd much rather have WS for 70 points with SCannon included than than 90 points with (probably around D6 S6 AP4) attack that will never do anything significant.

So I'm curious, what price would you put on a basic WS with shurikancannon (twinlinked)? Currently it is 100 points, carries 12 models, is a AV 1212/10 fast skimmer, has twin linked catapults in addition to the cannon, has the shield that drops all shooting attacks on the front and side armour to S8 and prevents melta.

The most comparable (role-wise) nonEldar vehicle is probably the Razorback. Now, to give it close to the same armament, you would need to upgrade to twin linked assault cannons. That puts it up to 75 points per the DA codex. Now, for 25 points more, you get fast skimmer versus tank, you get twice the transport capacity, +1 AV on the front and sides, AND you get the shield system. All of that is worth more than 25 points IMO, but the Razorback has +1 BS, one extra S6 rending shot, and its small arms have 24" range (but lack the Bladestorm ability), and weapon upgrades are cheaper (its always 75 points, but the WS can go up to 135).

Given the competition, I still say that 100-115 points for a multipurpose, fast (and slightly durable) transport/light tank is a reasonable price. Anything less and you have to start stripping away ability. You want a 50 point WS? In order to have any semblence of external balance you would have to strip away 1 AV, the shield, and the twin linked turret. You get a faster Rhino that carries 12 models instead of 10. 75 points? Strip away the twin linked turret, keep the extra AV and shield. Its still a faster Rhino, but you pay for the extra survivability.

Sure it's reasonably priced. That is why they almost ceased to exist in the game. Because they are "appropriately priced".

They are still 3HP AV10 at back, are hit on 3+ in CC no matter how fast they travel and may disembark troops only after moving 6", And it's BS3. It's waaay too easy to destroy for 100 points.
And as previously mentioned, your comparison to Razorback is not a good one. 100 points is a Night Scythe. Do you think that Wave Serpent at 100 is any shape or form comparable with it? To Ghost Ark with twin scatters?

Last edition, when transports where The Kings, Serpents were ok-ish. You really think that edition that pounded them to the ground should not give them any discount?

And yes, if you read my post you'd know that I want to have a cheaper transport. If it means removing some of things, fine. If they have to leave everything as-is then fine, decrease the cost even by little bit. Don't add half-assed upgrades that won't do anything and leave it so expensive.

EDIT: If it changes anything, I also think that Devilfish could use some price decrease.

I really hate this WAAC attitude players have been developing over the years. They want an wuto-win unit that requires no thinking or tactics to win. Sorry, there's nothing wrong with the Wave Serpent. Like everything else in the game, it gets expensive the more goodies you put on it. So, run it bare-bones. Look at Dark Eldar. Talk about paying premiums. They are regarded by most as a bottom tier army (like their Craftworld kin) yet in the right hands they are devastating. Yes both Eldar armies are fragile and you pay for your stuff. Used properly, they are a very tough list.
But, whatever. People want to argue and whine about little toy soldiers...

BTW: The Necron flyer transport is under costed. Not a very good argument to the Wave Serpent.

I don't want an autowin. I want to use my Wave Serpents and not be completely handicapped. If this book doesn't make them cheaper, they're all going straight to eBay instead of sitting on the shelf for the next few years. Wave serpents used to be tough before hull points, and before getting hit on a 3+. Basic tactical marines are 1-rounding my serpents in an assault. They were more useful when the boost was in the movement phase. Now that it's broken up, you can't avoid obstacles anymore. They were worth their premium in 5th edition, but they verge on useless, now.

The thing about models being undercosted is that you still have to play against them basically all of the time. That means, unfortunately, you can't just dismiss them for discussions like this.

Nocturnus wrote:


I really hate this WAAC attitude players have been developing over the years. They want an auto-win unit that requires no thinking or tactics to win. Sorry, there's nothing wrong with the Wave Serpent. Like everything else in the game, it gets expensive the more goodies you put on it. So, run it bare-bones. Look at Dark Eldar. Talk about paying premiums. They are regarded by most as a bottom tier army (like their Craftworld kin) yet in the right hands they are devastating. Yes both Eldar armies are fragile and you pay for your stuff. Used properly, they are a very tough list.
But, whatever. People want to argue and whine about little toy soldiers...

BTW: The Necron flyer transport is under costed. Not a very good argument to the Wave Serpent. Comparing a flyer to a ground vehicle? Come on now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arschbombe wrote:
For me the most exciting part of this release is the new decal sheet. It has my craftworld symbol.

Is there a link to the new sheet? I would love to see it, Cheers.

Um, I'm pretty sure 100+ is bare bones for a wave serpent. You know since it starts at 90 and has a forced weapon upgrade of 10-45 points. After that it is "extra" and should start to get pricey.

Nocturnus wrote:
You might not be aware of this, but GW NEEDS to sell kits. They don't really care much about balance. It's all about selling the big ticket models. Look at flyers. In general, they are the most expensive kits in an army and people are "encouraged" to run 3 of them. Not including Allies. Bottom line, GW sells models first and worries about rules and balance second. Maybe third or fourth...

Of course I'm aware of it. It's obvious that their strategy is to obsolete your thousand dollar investment every year or two. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I love the game, but this is frustrating.

JB_Man wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
You might not be aware of this, but GW NEEDS to sell kits. They don't really care much about balance. It's all about selling the big ticket models. Look at flyers. In general, they are the most expensive kits in an army and people are "encouraged" to run 3 of them. Not including Allies. Bottom line, GW sells models first and worries about rules and balance second. Maybe third or fourth...

Of course I'm aware of it. It's obvious that their strategy is to obsolete your thousand dollar investment every year or two. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I love the game, but this is frustrating.

I completely agree! I have been playing since Rogue Trader and it really sucks to see the way the game/company has gone. So, let's wait and see what next Saturday brings (unless some lucky bloke gets a copy/look prior to that). One change that would benefit Wave Serpents would be to make them assault vehicles. At least that would make Banshees and Scorpions viable again. But as was pointed out before, I don't think they'll change it.