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 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
'We were paying Simple Games' = 'You were paying simple games'.

Wouldn't that always be the case, Mr. Burning?

 Mr. Burning wrote:
'Mierce Miniatures' = 'Those non existent DV sets funded this range'.

And that is more than a slight exaggeration, given we've had Banelords/legions figures since at least February last year (going by the first post of this thread). I've tried going further back, but I couldn't find solid information. Given the earliest reference I can find on Dakka to the DV pre-order information is Aug 24th 2012, that's 18 months of models at a minimum before you can claim MG were taking DV money to fund a model line...

I've got less issues with your other points, but those two stuck out

yeah I struggled fitting Mierce in there.

Though I have just noticed this.

Mierce Miniatures is comprised of the exact same team within Maelstrom Games that had, until then, produced the BaneLegions and Templar's Forge ranges. The company retains all of the same materials, equipment, products and outlook on life, and thus you can be assured that the high production quality of our ranges will continue into 2013 and beyond!

The same outlook on life, I hope that isn't work life, then (ever decreasing circles of Ltd Companies).

grefven wrote:
If MG had gone out and told us, the customers, "Hey, we are in heavy debts, and we will most likely fold our business shortly," how would you react to that? Would you continue buying or would you rather not?

It would have been the right thing to do instead of letting it end like this.

I found this in a couple of places online, it's from Simple Miniature Games:

"Statement Regarding Maelstrom Games Ltd
On the 1st October we made the difficult decision to assign the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games to Wayland Games Ltd for a nominal fee.
This debt at the point sold stood at just under £100,000 and has been outstanding at that level and higher for over 12 months. This debt built up during a short space of time during the busiest period in our 10 year history just after significant amounts had been paid for other invoices. Promises were made to clear a large portion of the debt within a short space of time but that payment never materialised. A repayment plan was then agreed which should have seen the debt reduced significantly beyond the point that it actually has been. Unfortunately many of these payments were consistently declined and at the last the payments were continually declined.
It was around this point in conjunction with our reading into the accounts of Maelstrom Games that we contacted debt recovery and debt purchase specialists in order to take further action and begin the recovery of assets to cover some the debt.
Demands for the reimbursement of the failed payments and for payment of stock supplied on the 12th September for Maelstrom Games customer orders were completely ignored. As such on October 1st 2012 the debt was sold to the company which offered the best solution, not immediately for us, but for what I considered the best long term solution for our industry in the UK. We chose Wayland Games as they have a vested interest in the hobby and industry and will offer better protection to potential customers, suppliers and manufacturers, other companies would not.
We have continued to trade as normal during the entire period of this debt and continue to order from our suppliers and pay them on time. Maelstrom Games are only one customer out of several dozen and our whole customer base is far, far greater than any one company.
You should understand that Simple Miniature Games have supported Maelstrom through the last year even though we knew they were struggling but with our support they would continue to trade. However there are only so many broken promises that you can listen to and it became perfectly clear that assets of Maelstrom Games were being moved to other companies that had been funded by monies which should have been paid to suppliers including ourselves. There was no way Maelstrom Games could pay the debt and it would appear that steps were being taken to avoid the debts and protect other assets.
This debt has not adversely affected Simple Miniature Games as a company as we can afford to continue to trade with this debt outstanding due to the reliability of our customer base and strong product lines. It has however affected myself and my wife personally as the reserves we have built over 10 years of hard work have had to cover the debt. It was always our intention to use around half of this profit to expand our warehouse and bring in another two or three new ranges including manufacturing our own. However this will now have to wait whilst we consolidate and build up the reserves for our future once again."

“We are the Wayland. Lower your firewalls and surrender your debt. We will add your retail and stocking distinctiveness to our own. Your customers will adapt to buy from us. Resistance is futile.” - Locutus, of Wayland.

With all due respect to those that got ripped off by Maelstrom - do we know what's happening with Merice miniatures? Because some of the Banebeasts line were downright stunning, and I was still planning on grabbing some for Fantasy (like the Chimera).

grefven wrote:
If MG had gone out and told us, the customers, "Hey, we are in heavy debts, and we will most likely fold our business shortly," how would you react to that? Would you continue buying or would you rather not?

If they had been upfront about it, and had been selling stock that they actually had on hand, then yes, absolutely I would have continued buying.

What turned me off Maelstrom towards the end was the whole selling stuff they didn't actually have thing. That put me off well before the shell game shenanigans started.

ted1138 wrote:
I found this in a couple of places online, it's from Simple Miniature Games:

"Statement Regarding Maelstrom Games Ltd
On the 1st October we made the difficult decision to assign the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games to Wayland Games Ltd for a nominal fee.
This debt at the point sold stood at just under £100,000 and has been outstanding at that level and higher for over 12 months. This debt built up during a short space of time during the busiest period in our 10 year history just after significant amounts had been paid for other invoices. Promises were made to clear a large portion of the debt within a short space of time but that payment never materialised. A repayment plan was then agreed which should have seen the debt reduced significantly beyond the point that it actually has been. Unfortunately many of these payments were consistently declined and at the last the payments were continually declined.
It was around this point in conjunction with our reading into the accounts of Maelstrom Games that we contacted debt recovery and debt purchase specialists in order to take further action and begin the recovery of assets to cover some the debt.
Demands for the reimbursement of the failed payments and for payment of stock supplied on the 12th September for Maelstrom Games customer orders were completely ignored. As such on October 1st 2012 the debt was sold to the company which offered the best solution, not immediately for us, but for what I considered the best long term solution for our industry in the UK. We chose Wayland Games as they have a vested interest in the hobby and industry and will offer better protection to potential customers, suppliers and manufacturers, other companies would not.
We have continued to trade as normal during the entire period of this debt and continue to order from our suppliers and pay them on time. Maelstrom Games are only one customer out of several dozen and our whole customer base is far, far greater than any one company.
You should understand that Simple Miniature Games have supported Maelstrom through the last year even though we knew they were struggling but with our support they would continue to trade. However there are only so many broken promises that you can listen to and it became perfectly clear that assets of Maelstrom Games were being moved to other companies that had been funded by monies which should have been paid to suppliers including ourselves. There was no way Maelstrom Games could pay the debt and it would appear that steps were being taken to avoid the debts and protect other assets.
This debt has not adversely affected Simple Miniature Games as a company as we can afford to continue to trade with this debt outstanding due to the reliability of our customer base and strong product lines. It has however affected myself and my wife personally as the reserves we have built over 10 years of hard work have had to cover the debt. It was always our intention to use around half of this profit to expand our warehouse and bring in another two or three new ranges including manufacturing our own. However this will now have to wait whilst we consolidate and build up the reserves for our future once again."

Whoa... I don't even know what this means?

So, a company called Simple Miniature Games was owed £100,000 by Maelstrom for over a year (am I reading that right)? And now, rather than wait longer to be repaid, sold off the debt to Wayland Games? I'm not sure why Wayland would want it or why it had to be another miniatures distributor / what protection that gives to customers, as they mention.

It does seem to be very shady that Maelstrom tried to spin off the Banebeasts portion... I guess they knew all this was coming. I do hope someone picks up that line, as certainly it's more profitable to continue to make those nice sculpts than to just bury them!

See the last few pages of this thread for more details.

Though It is always useful to keep highlighting how douchey MG and Rob lane are.

 RiTides wrote:

ted1138 wrote:
I found this in a couple of places online, it's from Simple Miniature Games:

"Statement Regarding Maelstrom Games Ltd
On the 1st October we made the difficult decision to assign the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games to Wayland Games Ltd for a nominal fee.
This debt at the point sold stood at just under £100,000 and has been outstanding at that level and higher for over 12 months. This debt built up during a short space of time during the busiest period in our 10 year history just after significant amounts had been paid for other invoices. Promises were made to clear a large portion of the debt within a short space of time but that payment never materialised. A repayment plan was then agreed which should have seen the debt reduced significantly beyond the point that it actually has been. Unfortunately many of these payments were consistently declined and at the last the payments were continually declined.
It was around this point in conjunction with our reading into the accounts of Maelstrom Games that we contacted debt recovery and debt purchase specialists in order to take further action and begin the recovery of assets to cover some the debt.
Demands for the reimbursement of the failed payments and for payment of stock supplied on the 12th September for Maelstrom Games customer orders were completely ignored. As such on October 1st 2012 the debt was sold to the company which offered the best solution, not immediately for us, but for what I considered the best long term solution for our industry in the UK. We chose Wayland Games as they have a vested interest in the hobby and industry and will offer better protection to potential customers, suppliers and manufacturers, other companies would not.
We have continued to trade as normal during the entire period of this debt and continue to order from our suppliers and pay them on time. Maelstrom Games are only one customer out of several dozen and our whole customer base is far, far greater than any one company.
You should understand that Simple Miniature Games have supported Maelstrom through the last year even though we knew they were struggling but with our support they would continue to trade. However there are only so many broken promises that you can listen to and it became perfectly clear that assets of Maelstrom Games were being moved to other companies that had been funded by monies which should have been paid to suppliers including ourselves. There was no way Maelstrom Games could pay the debt and it would appear that steps were being taken to avoid the debts and protect other assets.
This debt has not adversely affected Simple Miniature Games as a company as we can afford to continue to trade with this debt outstanding due to the reliability of our customer base and strong product lines. It has however affected myself and my wife personally as the reserves we have built over 10 years of hard work have had to cover the debt. It was always our intention to use around half of this profit to expand our warehouse and bring in another two or three new ranges including manufacturing our own. However this will now have to wait whilst we consolidate and build up the reserves for our future once again."

Whoa... I don't even know what this means?

So, a company called Simple Miniature Games was owed £100,000 by Maelstrom for over a year (am I reading that right)? And now, rather than wait longer to be repaid, sold off the debt to Wayland Games? I'm not sure why Wayland would want it or why it had to be another miniatures distributor / what protection that gives to customers, as they mention.

It does seem to be very shady that Maelstrom tried to spin off the Banebeasts portion... I guess they knew all this was coming. I do hope someone picks up that line, as certainly it's more profitable to continue to make those nice sculpts than to just bury them!

Yeah, it's the

"and it became perfectly clear that assets of Maelstrom Games were being moved to other companies that had been funded by monies which should have been paid to suppliers including ourselves."

part that interests me. I guess they mean the EotS website...

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Bazz wrote:
Have any of you noticed that nowadays nothing means what it used to mean

When somebody used to say that they were “moving to a bigger warehouse” they were basically …..moving to a bigger warehouse. But now it seems to mean that they are about to asset-strip the joint to setup shop next door! Or as seems to be in this case they couldn’t even be bothered to do that and just changed the shop sign!

From now on if any company says they are “moving warehouse” I am running for the hills (and that’s not an easy thing to do living in Holland! )

Rob lanes Guide to Language:

'We are moving to a new warehouse' = 'I just set up a new company, with your money'.

'In stock' = 'It's in stock some where on the planet, but not here.'

'Buy with confidence' = 'Of getting the shaft'.

'Worldwide shipping' = 'It'll never turn up'.

'DV limited edition' = 'C'mon suckers give me your cash'.

'Restrictive trade terms of of trading partners' = 'We can't pay the bills, but you are not to know that'.

'We were paying Simple Games' = 'You were paying simple games'.

'Wayland screwed us' = 'We were found out'.

'Eye of the storm' = 'Don't come in here'

'Mierce Miniatures' = 'Those non existent DV sets funded this range'.

Awesome post - the summary of genius!!!

grefven wrote:

Wayland, obviously picked up on this, and figured they wanted a piece of the cake. They attempted to buy MG. When their offer was refused, they instead wanted to remove a competetor, which was growing larger quickly. As someone mentioned above, when they realised MG had over-stretched with Mierce Miniatures, they went in for the kill.

For the hobby, what Wayland did isn't benefitting us, the customers.
1.) MG went under, meaning less options to chose from for us, the customers.
2.) When MG went under, it's a big risk that Mierce Miniatures will bite the dust too. So, perhaps a promising range of miniatures will go down the drain. It's a shame because they had some really great stuff.
3.) When MG went under, the customers with standing orders got shafted. If Wayland wanted to help the community, they would have worked out a way for the debt to be paid off.
4.) When Wayland demanded their newly collected debt to be paid right away, but what happens now with the other that MG owns? There is no way in hell any of them will get anything back now. Before Wayland sunk MG, there still was a chance. How will this affect the customers?

Nah, the best thing Wayland could have done for themselves would just have been to let MG struggle and die off. But there would be the risk that MG failing like that would kill off some of the suppliers and hurt Wayland. So bailing out one of their suppliers seems like a credible thing to do.

At this point, I think Maelstrom was failing anyway; they were losing credit and had to liquidate most of it's stock, leaving it with no stock, no money and no credit. If the debt figures are correct then I can't imagine them correcting things.

I also dobut the BaneLegions range would have gone OOP, it'd have been worth something and therefore could be sold off to try and repay the debt, and someone would have been apply to continue production.

 insaniak wrote:

What turned me off Maelstrom towards the end was the whole selling stuff they didn't actually have thing. That put me off well before the shell game shenanigans started.

No no no. They were selling miniature futures. Maelstrom Games was just being innovative and pushing the envelope of miniature trading business!

 RiTides wrote:

So, a company called Simple Miniature Games was owed £100,000 by Maelstrom for over a year (am I reading that right)? And now, rather than wait longer to be repaid, sold off the debt to Wayland Games?

It wasn't the question of "waiting longer to be repaid", it was question of either getting pennies on their pound, or nothing at all.

Anyone who has been following the forums should have been able to see that Maelstrom was basically engaged in a fire sale.

And, despite the many signs and topics and all the posts (and there is a ton of them) many people still continued to spend money with them?

Hopefully people will remember this and vote with their cash when it comes down to attending events at "The Eye of the Storm" and buying into "mierce mini's"

Backfire wrote:

No no no. They were selling miniature futures. Maelstrom Games was just being innovative and pushing the envelope of miniature trading business!

They were Discworld/Ankh Morpokian Futures, hence the existence of the non existent warehouse to store all that potential stock.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Backfire wrote:

No no no. They were selling miniature futures. Maelstrom Games was just being innovative and pushing the envelope of miniature trading business!

They were Discworld/Ankh Morpokian Futures, hence the existence of the non existent warehouse to store all that potential stock.

The warehouse is actually packed!
It contains not only the present stock, but also previous already sold stock and all future miniatures that still have to be produced.
They only seem to be lacking future miniatures from Mierce. As if they go bankrupt soon, because some totally different company with the same staff and adress robbed a lot of their potential customers.
But you have to order fast, as things seem to be dissappearing in a luggage that's runnning loose.

MG's homepage...

OFFICIAL NOTICE

Maelstrom Games Ltd. has ceased trading and will enter liquidation at some point over the next few months.

A creditor of Maelstrom Games Ltd., Wayland Games Ltd., issued a Statutory Demand under section 123(1)(a) or 221(1)(a) of the Insolvency Act, 1986 on the 17th of October, 2012 for �99,773.61 plus costs of issuing and serving the demand.

This debt was purchased from Simple Miniature Games by Wayland Games Ltd on the 1st of October, 2012 and payment of this debt was demanded in full by Wayland Games after seven days had elapsed. Unfortunately, Maelstrom Games Ltd. could not pay Wayland Games Ltd. this debt in full within those seven days.

Previous to the debt purchase, Maelstrom Games Ltd. was servicing the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games at the rate of �500 per working day, claimed by the creditor when convenient for him by charging a credit card owned by Maelstrom Games Ltd., which had been occurring since mid-June and continued to late September, the last payment being taken on the 25th. Maelstrom Games Ltd. did not cancel these payments and were not aware that this debt was being transferred.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. offered to pay the debt purchased by Wayland Games Ltd. in the same manner as it had paid Simple Miniature Games, but this was not taken up by Wayland Games Ltd.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. can only apologise to those customers whose orders have not been fulfilled as it is now impossible for Maelstrom Games Ltd. to fulfil them, excepting those for Mierce Miniatures products (fulfilled by Mierce Miniatures in November) and Battlefront Miniatures products (fulfilled by Maelstrom Games in partnership with Battlefront Miniatures and Maunsfeld Gaming in November), all of which will be sent by Maelstrom Games Ltd. Other customer orders for certain ranges may be fulfilled in the future and any customers whose orders can be fulfilled will be contacted by Maelstrom Games in due course.

All creditors will be issued the relevant notices by the assigned Insolvency Practitioner when Maelstrom Games Ltd. enters liquidation.

Reads very much like, poor hard done by us, we wanted to sort it all out but the evil competitor didn't sob, sob

Personall I don't buy it after having read on this thread and others about MG...

EDIT: Just seen this was already posted on pg39...

Certainly looks like there is potentially a case of, if not fraudulent trading, then certainly wrongful trading (i.e. a situation in which you continue to trade or enter into contracts after you, as a director or shadow director, knew or ought to have known that there was no reasonable prospect of avoiding insolvent liquidation).

In a case of wrongful trading a court can hold a director personally liable for all debts of a company.

I think its disgusting that maelstrom games folds, leaving many customers out of pocket ( I was lucky as my money was refunded by paypal), then the company eye-of-the-storm appears with exacttly the same web page layout and apparently owned by the same people. Is there no justice I myself will not be buying anything from this "new" company and anyone with an ounce of sense will be steering clear

think its disgusting that maelstrom games folds, leaving many customers out of pocket ( I was lucky as my money was refunded by paypal), then the company eye-of-the-storm appears with exacttly the same web page layout and apparently owned by the same people. Is there no justice I myself will not be buying anything from this "new" company and anyone with an ounce of sense will be steering clear.

I second that!!!!

Devoted of Slaanesh wrote:
think its disgusting that maelstrom games folds, leaving many customers out of pocket ( I was lucky as my money was refunded by paypal), then the company eye-of-the-storm appears with exacttly the same web page layout and apparently owned by the same people. Is there no justice I myself will not be buying anything from this "new" company and anyone with an ounce of sense will be steering clear.

I second that!!!!

Ditto.

But of course there will be people who haven't lost money and did get good prices from MG in the past and who may want some of the stuff Mr Lane will have so miraculously rescued from the financial wreckage.

And in the current climate who's to say where the next insolvency will occur?

The most important lesson for everyone to take from this - regardless of where you buy your wargaming "fix" - is to protect yourself as a customer.

But even though I had good deals from MG in the past, and even though I got my money back (PayPal) - there is no way I will put my business the way of someone who seems more crooked than a GW Finecast Power Sword......

I have no lost any money. Got my 40 pounds
via my CC back. But I hate what they did to my fellow gamers - a lot of them were not that lucky! Two close friends of mine lost quite a bit. And they preordered in August, so ...
If some one wants to buy from them - fine. Won't be me ...

The wait is now on the first stories about people making a big fuss at the EotS store/events.

It's a bit surprising actually that no incidents have happened yet (that we know of).

Contacted my Bank about the charge back I submitted last week and it's currently at the point were they contact the supplier for their side of the story (that made me laugh) - given Maelstrom have ignored Paypal I assume they will do the same with the credit card company and I should have a credit back in a week to 10 days.

grefven wrote:

small_furry_spider wrote:
I have noticed that a couple of people in this thread seem to be giving Maelstrom the benefit of the doubt- I find it hard to agree with this: they lied about what they were doing for months (warehouses....)

If MG had gone out and told us, the customers, "Hey, we are in heavy debts, and we will most likely fold our business shortly," how would you react to that? Would you continue buying or would you rather not?

I would have cancelled my pre-ordered copy of X-wing, and if MG then told me they could only give me store credit, I would have used it to buy paints/books/whatever were in stock. Thus I, the customer would be a little bit happier, the amount owed by MG would be a little bit less, and I would not be pissed at Rob Lane. Depending on when they announced it, I might have continued to buy stuff in stock from them, thus helping to them to clear the debt.

Then I might order other stuff from Eye of the Storm when it starts up. Now I won't.

[Edited for clarity]

raykey wrote:
I think its disgusting that maelstrom games folds, leaving many customers out of pocket ( I was lucky as my money was refunded by paypal), then the company eye-of-the-storm appears with exacttly the same web page layout and apparently owned by the same people. Is there no justice I myself will not be buying anything from this "new" company and anyone with an ounce of sense will be steering clear

What about people like me, they have had tickets for ages for future events, should i just not bother and effectively lose my money?.

 DaveC wrote:
Contacted my Bank about the charge back I submitted last week and it's currently at the point were they contact the supplier for their side of the story (that made me laugh) - given Maelstrom have ignored Paypal I assume they will do the same with the credit card company and I should have a credit back in a week to 10 days.

Hi,

This is an important point:

1) If you paid by Credit Card in the UK

2) If the amount you paid was over £100

You are covered by Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act

See Below

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases

The REALLY important thing to note is this:

If points 1 & 2 above apply then the Credit Card company is JOINTLY LIABLE

This means you do NOT have to wait while they try and get the money back - they will of course tell you that's what they are doing.

Taken from the website:

Sometimes the card company will tell you it will try to reclaim the cash from the company in administration. You can simply answer: "Great news, I wish you the best of luck. However you are completely liable for my goods yourself, and I would like the full amount I'm entitled to please, regardless of that claim."

Take time to read the link above - even if it cannot help anyone now - it is worth using the advice to protect yourself in the future.

Vorlon - I'm not in the UK so that does not apply to me.

The Bank needs to give the supplier an opportunity to respond to my claim - given Maelstrom is not responding to claims it's a non issue any way - it's part of the process it won't affect the final outcome as I have already provided evidence that they can't and could not fulfill my order - it's just a formality I will get the refund I don't mind waiting a week or 2 having waited 3 months for the order to be fulfilled.

 DaveC wrote:
Vorlon - I'm not in the UK so that does not apply to me.

The Bank needs to give the supplier an opportunity to respond to my claim - given Maelstrom is not responding to claims it's a non issue any way - it's part of the process it won't affect the final outcome as I have already provided evidence that they can't and could not fulfill my order - it's just a formality I will get the refund I don't mind waiting a week or 2 having waited 3 months for the order to be fulfilled.

That's fine, I suspected as much from the flag......

But it is important for those of us in the UK to realise that if we paid by Credit Card and it was over £100 we do NOT have to wait while they "try and get the moeny back" - the Credit Card company has to pay up straight away - legally.

Also if you paid from your debit account, you are covered by the credit act *if* the money was paid out of your overdraft, as that's a form of credit. Strangely enough, you are safer spending their money and not your own.

Vorlon25 wrote:
we do NOT have to wait while they "try and get the moeny back" - the Credit Card company has to pay up straight away - legally.

They're not trying to get the money back.
They're trying to make sure the vendor actually failed to provide the service.

What you're saying is that I could go charge $5000 on my credit card, get the stuff delivered, call my credit card company and have it all reversed. It doesn't work that way.
Yes - they have to pay if the complaint is legitimate. First they have to ascertain that it's actually legitimate though.