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 Bat Manuel wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Maybe the difference is whether you pledge expecting:

1: Only the initial stuff advertised. Anything else is a nice bonus and if it's useless to you, it's regarded as free, so it doesn't matter?

2: The initial stuff, plus good stuff from the stretches. You're also investing in the expectation of good stretches, so if they're not to your taste, it's seen as a poor return on the investment.

I'm in the first camp, but I can understand the second.

I'm in the first camp. I don't care if they release anything else as I'm happy with what's out.

The people who are unhappy because of the stretch goals are insane. This is a lower price than you will ever be able to get in the future. Look at what's in the faction starters and decide if that's for you. Then look at the add-ons and decide which, if any, you'd like to spend money on. Don't base your decision on what might be available.

I'd pay to watch some of these people buy a new car. " What?!?!? Leather seats & a sunroof cost extra! I think it should be included 50% below MSRP! My buddy just bought 10 Yugos for that price!"

What's the retail price gonna be for the plastic Relic Knight models? I've been trying to find it but have only run into the metal/resin prices.

The incentive is that the item made, which is what the point of Kickstarter was before the CMON/Ogre explosion of Kickstarters this year. Items on Kickstarter were often more expensive then the retail price... as your trying to help the group get whatever they are trying to do get done. This trend of throwing lots of freebies at people is pretty new, and not fair to smaller groups who need every penny raised to see their dream made.

For instance, on the Gamers 3: Hands of Fate Kickstarter its $50 for a DVD of the film.

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.

Depends on the sculptor, the size of the sculpt, and how many 'extras' are needed.

The lowest price we've paid is $150 with an average of $350, for an infantry figure and double that for cavalry. Additional arms/weapons or heads usually end up being $25~$50 per bit.

We've received quotes of around $650 for an infantry figure in the past, and $2~3k for a model the size of the Relic Knight robots.

Low end for a vanity sculpt (not for me I might add) seemed to be around £300 ($500) about a year back

but that would be for a not-major league sculptor making a simple monopose figure for spin casting.

I expect a major name would be a lot more, with extra added on for detail and for casting complexity if it needed to come with poseable arms/head etc

Ninja'd by Cyporean (who quotes cheaper prices as well, but I guess that could be accounted for by repeat business possibilities and 'trade prices')

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

And this is were the streach goal comes in, they calculate how much it should cost (sculpt, moulds ectr) announce the model and set the streach goal and people pledge money for the extra stuff, goal reached, model is funded, backers get it and everybody is happy.

And here lies an issue, Duplicate models (if we hit this you will get more of the same), are essentially models people have theoretically already payed for, then again its a nice way to cover unexpected but lets see an issue, unlocking an entire starter was unlocked at 20k streach, a single big unit from the starter at 30k.

on top of that the streach goals keep moving away from each other while the backers pledges do not follow the same pace, making streach goals taking more time to be achieved, looking like steam and enthusiasm is lost.

Personally, I would prefer stretch goals to be more of the same models you are getting, with perhaps big mile stones being new models added. The company pays out less money (as the marginal cost for adding 3-4 of the same model is lower than adding a newly sculpted/cast model) but the value for me seems greater. It is nice to add options and hope they pay for themselves, but honestly if they want to entice people to jump in who were not willing before, they have to up the value proposition for those folks. Models that you have to pay extra for are very unlikely to do that, unless you want them more than their cost, and that happens to tip things.

But then that may just be me

personally I would love to see streachgoals be split between, game addons (like the augmented cards for example), extras for existing miniatures (like sedition wars female troopers substituting some of the male troopers), extra of the same units like they have done, new units and addons for existing units.

And finally some incentive to spend more money, somebody who had got his faction and the additional cannot spend more money even if he wanted, why not have more additional.

and while we are at it why the blackout of communication on that? to find out there is a battlemat to purchase, you must either click the guide (but does not mentions shipping costs) or find the relevant update, its otherwise hidden from view.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

I get the $25/$35 faction addons. Stretch goals are adding to that pile as well so they'll be worth their price vs. what you'd actually pay once Relic Knights hit's the stores next year. I guess I mainly don't get the$10 cosplays and Penny Arcades and SDEs. They're all getting done in plastic, which are made with steel molds that will essentially last forever...and are expensive. The arguement that we're only going to be making a small number of these for cons kind of escapes me.

I don't think this will be injection molded plastic. More like the quasi-plastic used by PP, Mantic, etc.

Me?

I just want to know what's after 460K, because clearly that will be hit soon.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.

Depends on the sculptor, the size of the sculpt, and how many 'extras' are needed.

The lowest price we've paid is $150 with an average of $350, for an infantry figure and double that for cavalry. Additional arms/weapons or heads usually end up being $25~$50 per bit.

We've received quotes of around $650 for an infantry figure in the past, and $2~3k for a model the size of the Relic Knight robots.

Agreed being I deal with sculptors now on daily basis as multiple projects going atm. Also who the sculptor is matters a lot too as I have several who are charging me 575 euros per fig and one I spoke to is 700 Australian dollars per 30mm fig so their is a lot of variables that go into play. Not to mention Plastic casting is by in large the most costly of all of the casting systems since the mould has to be hand drilled (though good companys use machines now adays) and I have recieved quotes of 20-30k Euros for one mould. So you figure you will have two to three different sprues in the box so ya you get the idea.

I can understand people wanting RK stretch goals but personally I am tapped out on the models as I don't want ANY more from these. I will already have tons and it will take a long time to get them painted as I have so many other projects going on. Honestly for the sedition wars and those of you who bought in, are you honestly EVER going to paint the 90 some odd models from it.. most likely not. I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders. I am getting a killer deal for my buck from this and as I stated before this is still better then I would get AND I HAVE A RETAILERS ACCOUNT WITH CMON!!!! I mean seriously people you are getting a killer deal and you just want more more more...that hurts my head.

 Empchild wrote:


...I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders...

But you know when you finish painting your very last mini you die right????

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 Empchild wrote:


...I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders...

But you know when you finish painting your very last mini you die right????

If only that were true sometimes .

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

You're not expected to buy anything. The downgrading doesn't make any sense. It's not like you're getting less for your already pledged money. Why does what is added later impact at all on what you pledged for in the first place? It's just a bonus at that point for helping them get the funding in the first place.

I come back to my McDonald's example:

People don't care about your McDonalds example, and I'll explain why.

 scipio.au wrote:

It's a side effect of these larger Kickstarters no longer being about the "goal", but about chasing stretch goals. Which in turns means the initial goal becomes a BS goal. The exception now being much smaller projects like Bruno's goblins or the Stuart's zombies or the Stonehaven dwarves. Campaigns like Tre's RBM and Mantic's KoW I believe started as truly about the goal, but since both went much much further and became "stretch-focused", subsequent campaigns from both will be "stretch-chaser" campaigns, as we're already seeing with DreadBall.

Many people aren't pledging for the initial items. In some cases, the initial "sweet spot" is actually poor value initially. (RK, DreadBall). They're pledging based on a perception that there will be a metric shirtload of stuff added to that level. - based on Zombicide, Sedition Wars, Mantic, Reaper. Especially with the "Early Bird"pledges, people go in early expecting a lot more. If their expectations aren't met, they leave.

To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Basically, at $100 for saviour, people aren't pledging for what it says on the tin. They're pledging for what it says on the tin, plus a few extra tins that they will find to their liking. You can blame the consumers, but blame the (minis) companies just as much for turning Kickstarter into "stretch-goal-a-go-go" instead of "help us hit this real, actual, goal".

The kickstarter began to move Relic Knights forward and take it from a few models to a full fledged game.

To achieve this the money will be used to "greatly accelerate the pace of sculpting, and now all six factions will be in high grade plastic!"

So mission accomplished. We did it guys! Relic Knights is going to be a viable miniatures game as of hitting the $20,000 mark. SPM have done what they set out to do. Everything after that was icing on the cake.

Stretch goals are additional funding for goals set after the initial or main goal. Thus the funding up until this point has been not just for the Relic Knights tabletop game, but also for:

Expediting manufacturing of all six RK factions

Casino quality cards

Base inserts

Plastic tokens

Special Edition miniatures

Faction Starter Boosts

Optional Extras

Optional Extras Boosts!

More base inserts

Collectively, we have paid for all those goals to be reached. I don't believe it's unfair, then, that someone disagree with the handling of the reward or fulfillment of those goals.

Ultimately, everyone's going to decide for themselves if they're in or out.

 Empchild wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 Empchild wrote:


...I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders...

But you know when you finish painting your very last mini you die right????

If only that were true sometimes .

Yes to a degree we are hoarders... But due to life constrains I managed to let go a huge part of my collections and probably more to go... So I'm closer to the rip land

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I find it pretty strange to complain about the stretch goals. They're extras. You should be satisfied with the "reward" as it is at the time you make the pledge. Otherwise don't freakin' pledge!

Are people seriously pledging despite not liking the current rewards, but thinking that it'll end up being 6 times as much extra stuff for free in the end like Reaper and then raging when it's not?

It doesn't mean people are pledging today and not liking what's there. They could have pledged 2 or 3 weeks ago and don't like how things have panned out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Ugh - no more McDonalds analogies, please.

Sorry Alph! Didn't see this post as I've been replying as I read my way down the page. Though I think my KFC example does illustrate the point a little better in terms of expectations and outcomes.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Ninja'd by Cyporean (who quotes cheaper prices as well, but I guess that could be accounted for by repeat business possibilities and 'trade prices')

I can quote higher prices, but I'm going off the ones I'm willing to pay

IIRC the gent who did the 'Druid Gone Wilder' and new Ashylnn sculpts charges around $700 for a 30mm sculpt.

 Empchild wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
They still have to sculpt things.

I wonder how much a mini sculptor actually gets paid per sculpt.

Depends on the sculptor, the size of the sculpt, and how many 'extras' are needed.

The lowest price we've paid is $150 with an average of $350, for an infantry figure and double that for cavalry. Additional arms/weapons or heads usually end up being $25~$50 per bit.

We've received quotes of around $650 for an infantry figure in the past, and $2~3k for a model the size of the Relic Knight robots.

Agreed being I deal with sculptors now on daily basis as multiple projects going atm. Also who the sculptor is matters a lot too as I have several who are charging me 575 euros per fig and one I spoke to is 700 Australian dollars per 30mm fig so their is a lot of variables that go into play. Not to mention Plastic casting is by in large the most costly of all of the casting systems since the mould has to be hand drilled (though good companys use machines now adays) and I have recieved quotes of 20-30k Euros for one mould. So you figure you will have two to three different sprues in the box so ya you get the idea.

I can understand people wanting RK stretch goals but personally I am tapped out on the models as I don't want ANY more from these. I will already have tons and it will take a long time to get them painted as I have so many other projects going on. Honestly for the sedition wars and those of you who bought in, are you honestly EVER going to paint the 90 some odd models from it.. most likely not. I just sold off from my personal about $300 of McVey limited minis as I know I will never get to them since they have been hanging around my house for years. I have learned one major thing from gaming in the 18 years I have had this hobby, and that gamers are hoarders. I am getting a killer deal for my buck from this and as I stated before this is still better then I would get AND I HAVE A RETAILERS ACCOUNT WITH CMON!!!! I mean seriously people you are getting a killer deal and you just want more more more...that hurts my head.

Thats the thing though.

If it was just about getting a few extra minis and pushing the game that wouldn't even be the issue. The issue here is the P.P. planing that has shot this KS project in the foot. The less then steller attittude that, "Oh, just throw a few more options to buy and all is forgiven..."

Yes, It IS a very good deal, but there is more to it then just "Oh, were throwing everything but the kitchen sink at you, why are you complaining?"

As was already said time and again, the level of suck that is coming with the grief given this project is just staggering. People here and on the KS page are putting this thing up on the preverbial pedistal, and then shooting anyone who has an issue with the subpar communciation, the musical figures shell game, and the haphazard road that this KS project has taken. Yes, it is down to 5 days, but what exactly was going on for the entire time?

CMON has put thier name behind this. SODA POP MINIATURES has put thier name behind this. The levels of quality that BOTH OF these entities are known for are not being kept as this project has moved forward.

Yes, I for one, don't have an issue with the numbers of minis. The issue is with the stop and go way in which this project has been run. With all of the other excuses, now we get still another one. "Oh, your getting tons of minis, why are you complaining?"...

It is not such a killer deal when you have to keep going back and seeing a completely different project every couple of days/ weeks. (Without any discussion for that matter.)Then the "Updates" as being just a shell game of a complete change to the KS project as a whole? Seriously, thats ok?- In what world?

When I put hard earned coin down, I am not just throwing it out there and giving some fan of the pretty little shineys license to bad mouth me if I have a legitamate issue, and it is being shouted down by mob mentality. "Oh, your getting a good deal, what are you crying about..." The issue I had and still have is that, You are asking for over 600 and something bucks for a game. I as someone throwing down that ahrd earned coin kind of expect that if I put down money on something, thats what I am going to get. Not "Oh, were removing so and so and adding this close second. Then we will bring back this original figure as an option to buy for you."

What is the issue? The issue is that this was, in the beginning to fund a new game. After the less then steller reaction to the so called, "Backers-Fans" and zero to no discussion, all the while using GENCON as an excuse, the project is being run by a team of monkeys that have no other vision then to just slash and burn as much money as they can before the end of the time limit of the project. For the entire time of the Kickstarter.


Yes, people are pointing back time and again at the Sedition Wars, Zombicide, and Reaper projects. You want to know why? Because they were organized, the people who pushed them actually cared about the project an it wasn't just a communications spankfest for the backer fan-boi commenters of the over the top sculpts.

We actually had the game makers and designers of the other games and figures communicate, almost daily and at the very least ONCE a day, if not more. There was a clear, well thought out discussion as to where the project was, where they wanted to take it, and what the goals were. The discussions were centered on What the game was doing, the here and now through-out the projects, and the issues that came up about the project, or questions were dealt with in a timly manner and not just thrown to the mob of the fan boi peanut gallery. They were dealt head on and directly by the Project designers.

And on that point as well?

If your a game designer, I - as a fan really could care less about your so called "Production Issues" when you begin a project with a large goal and an empty tank. If you can't handle the heat don't push lofty expectations. Your production costs don't concern me. If it costs a 1000 bucks, and you need it, then it would be in your best interest to look to fund that 1000 for what you originally need to do then to go out there and ask for 500 more for something else, and not even say a thing about it for over two or three weeks...

And when this project is already at over 449 and going to over 500,000 bucks THAT is not even a conversation here.

Had the communication been better, the levels more organized, and the visuals been cleaner- This project could have very well been over 700,000 and climbing right now. Instead, the message being sent by this project right now is... "Oh, look... shiney! Glad if we can hurry up and finish this off."

I see your point grot but what did they take away?

 Alpharius wrote:
It is fairly simple - RK fans are disappointed by Non-RK stretch Goals.

Of which there are a whole two. *gasp*
And neither of which require any more money, because they've already pledged. *double gasp*
Meaning that the goals impact them in zero ways. *triple super gasp*

Here's how i look at it. I wanted a steak dinner so.i went out and bought one. During the dinner the waitress decided she liked my sexy self and gave me free drinks. Oddly that used to happen alot though not as much since i had a ring on my finger. I get wanting to know what's next for stretch goals and i agreds on thay but otherwise this is the same as the other cmon produced ks.

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
It kind of bugs me that they won't show me the stretch goal till I've actually hit it.

See that annoys me as well. That's something they shouldn't be doing, and not something I've seen a kick starter do. Stretch goals are meant to encourage buy-in, not act as a secret reward for those that leap before they look.

 scipio.au wrote:
To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Then that's a load of bs entitlement.

They clearly list what you get for each pledge level. Anything after that is a bonus. Any optional add-ons are just that, optional. Expecting more for your 'investment' is just nonsense. You're buying a product, and as more people buy it you get a few things for free added on top of that.

 scipio.au wrote:
It doesn't mean people are pledging today and not liking what's there. They could have pledged 2 or 3 weeks ago and don't like how things have panned out.

Panned out? Are they suddenly not getting what they pledged for initially? Of course not. They're getting more than what they paid for. When I go into McDonald's (here we go again) I don't buy a Big Mac and hope that everyone else around me does so too so I get free fries (and then leave with nothing when I don't get it). I go in there to buy a Big Mac, and if all I get is that Big Mac... then I got what I paid for, didn't I? If I get anything more than that, then it's a bonus.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Then that's a load of bs entitlement.

They clearly list what you get for each pledge level. Anything after that is a bonus. Any optional add-ons are just that, optional. Expecting more for your 'investment' is just nonsense. You're buying a product, and as more people buy it you get a few things for free added on top of that.

 scipio.au wrote:
It doesn't mean people are pledging today and not liking what's there. They could have pledged 2 or 3 weeks ago and don't like how things have panned out.

Panned out? Are they suddenly not getting what they pledged for initially? Of course not. They're getting more than what they paid for. When I go into McDonald's (here we go again) I don't buy a Big Mac and hope that everyone else around me does so too so I get free fries (and then leave with nothing when I don't get it). I go in there to buy a Big Mac, and if all I get is that Big Mac... then I got what I paid for, didn't I? If I get anything more than that, then it's a bonus.

I think you're contradicting yourself.

You use the buzzword Entitlement to describe anyone not content with what they're funding. You say that what you buy into is what you get. Be happy if they give you anything extra. But also:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Stretch goals are meant to encourage buy-in, not act as a secret reward for those that leap before they look.

So if I was encouraged to buy in by a stretch goal - it hasn't been hit yet, hence why it's a goal and not clearly labeled as content for whatever pledge level - then I'm putting money down not just for what is available but for what will be available. At that point the stretch goal can't be considered something extra.

 scipio.au wrote:

People don't care about your McDonalds example, and I'll explain why.

 scipio.au wrote:

It's a side effect of these larger Kickstarters no longer being about the "goal", but about chasing stretch goals. Which in turns means the initial goal becomes a BS goal. The exception now being much smaller projects like Bruno's goblins or the Stuart's zombies or the Stonehaven dwarves. Campaigns like Tre's RBM and Mantic's KoW I believe started as truly about the goal, but since both went much much further and became "stretch-focused", subsequent campaigns from both will be "stretch-chaser" campaigns, as we're already seeing with DreadBall.

Many people aren't pledging for the initial items. In some cases, the initial "sweet spot" is actually poor value initially. (RK, DreadBall). They're pledging based on a perception that there will be a metric shirtload of stuff added to that level. - based on Zombicide, Sedition Wars, Mantic, Reaper. Especially with the "Early Bird"pledges, people go in early expecting a lot more. If their expectations aren't met, they leave.

To use an equally-convoluted KFC example. - They're not going in and expecting to only get a Twister Combo meal. They're expecting it to turn out to be a 20-piece bucket with 4 sides. When it turns into a 12-piece box with 2 sides and the chance to buy more chicken and sides separately, or a few slices of Pizza Hut (also owned by the same parent company), they get pissed off that they're not getting the amount of chicken they expected, so they leave.

Basically, at $100 for saviour, people aren't pledging for what it says on the tin. They're pledging for what it says on the tin, plus a few extra tins that they will find to their liking. You can blame the consumers, but blame the (minis) companies just as much for turning Kickstarter into "stretch-goal-a-go-go" instead of "help us hit this real, actual, goal".

I agree with this. I don't know if it makes me a greedy bastard, an opportunist, or any other number negative personality archtypes, but I agree. Take the Savior buy in and the Noh Empire (double Noh) for example. It's not value for me to spend a hundred bucks on 10 minis (two which are Cypher sized) and a rulebook. 12 minis, I forgot the 2 special pics. I don't even count the tokens, the cards, the chits, the bobs and whatnots.....they're all part of the rules system/book to me. But as we hit these stretch goals and get up to ten extra minis...that's where the value is to me

CMON and SPM wanted 20K. That's it. That's what they said they needed to make this entire game, but that's BS, because apparently it costs that much to to make three or four minis from start to finish. I got no problem with that, I guess that's just the way to do a KS. I'm pretty novice at KS, so the multitudes of reasons for doing this probably escape me. But like Scipio said it's not the week 1 buy in that everyone's after.

This is the way my mind works - I figure with all this money they make they've got enough to print enough books and rules accessories for twice the number of backers they've got on tap. I figure for the money they take in, they've got the brand new sculpts paid for and the metal molds for all the minis. Those metal molds will last effectively forever. And for what I paid in I'm probably getting what...about two pounds of plastic. Just how much does raw plastic cost when you buy it in bulk? 2-3 dollars a pound? Much much less? I checked one report that said in Oct of 2010 that a metric ton of a certain type of plastic went for $1400 a metric ton. Because I'm looking at old data, and probably the wrong data (as there are different type of plastic) I'll go with $3 a pound in raw mats. So after everything is built and printed, it costs them $6 to make my stuff. There are 2000 backers right now, so they spend about $12,000 of the $450k on mats to make the minis.

Everything else is gravy, some of it is spent gravy I realize, but it's gravy for them. CMON and SPM walk off with a fully produced range of minis, metal molds that they get to use forever, extra minis and rules for the next couple of waves of sale, etc etc etc. After this KS is done SPM only needs to pay the cost of raw plastic to fill their sales orders to the world. The way I see it is that I help them make their game with my $200 (what I actually spent) and in return they toss me the rules, some cards, some chips, and about 2 pounds of finished plastic. Would I like 3 pounds of finished plastic, yes, and that's the added value everyone's looking for. Not the initial, week one, buy in.

You’re only going halfway there.

If that goal that encouraged you to buy in isn’t met, then you could withdraw your pledge. That makes perfect sense to me; you didn't get what you were hoping to get, so you keep the money. What doesn’t make sense is making a pledge because you like what’s already there, and then getting pissy/withdrawing funding when later goals don’t, for whatever reason, match your level of expectation (or entitlement).

When I first saw this Kickstarter it looked ok. To me – personally – the starter packs were a bit thin and there wasn’t much to grab me other than a few of the models (which I was happy to wait for). Doubling basic troops and adding in some nifty Ltd. Ed. characters encouraged me to buy in.

Now say that they had never reached the first SDE stretch goal. My interest would have waned and I might have reduced/pulled out. But say for sake of argument that I had pledged Day 1 because I wanted two starter-sets. Then they go and add SDE characters... so I throw a hissy fit and withdraw my pledge? Or I pledge Day 1 because I want two starter-sets... and then get annoyed when a stretch goal doesn’t add what I want, even though I was happy with the original levels when the KS first started?

See I don’t mind if people don’t like the stretch goals – most of the Ltd. Ed characters don’t do it for me, and I only like half the factions, so when one of the ones I don’t like gets something new it doesn’t help me – but to get annoyed at stretch goals when you’ve already pledged just reeks of entitlement. And if it’s not entitlement then I don’t understand it because there’s no logic behind it.

To veer away from fast food I’ll jump on the tired cliché of car dealerships. I want a Ford Mustang. I go in and buy a Ford Mustang. Later on they say that anyone who buys a Ford Mustang also gets a Kia Rio. I don’t want a Kia Rio... so I don’t buy the Mustang? See how that makes no logical sense.

You’ve got what you paid for. Anything more is a bonus. Cancelling your order because later items (especially later optional items) doesn’t make any sense.

And if you're putting money down in the hope of what might be available down the line, then that's your problem. Getting angry and storming off (your pledge money in tow) when it doesn't go the way you want isn't reasonable. It's petulant.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You’re only going halfway there.

If that goal that encouraged you to buy in isn’t met, then you could withdraw your pledge. That makes perfect sense to me; you didn't get what you were hoping to get, so you keep the money. What doesn’t make sense is making a pledge because you like what’s already there, and then getting pissy/withdrawing funding when later goals don’t, for whatever reason, match your level of expectation (or entitlement).

When I first saw this Kickstarter it looked ok. To me – personally – the starter packs were a bit thin and there wasn’t much to grab me other than a few of the models (which I was happy to wait for). Doubling basic troops and adding in some nifty Ltd. Ed. characters encouraged me to buy in.

Now say that they had never reached the first SDE stretch goal. My interest would have waned and I might have reduced/pulled out. But say for sake of argument that I had pledged Day 1 because I wanted two starter-sets. Then they go and add SDE characters... so I throw a hissy fit and withdraw my pledge? Or I pledge Day 1 because I want two starter-sets... and then get annoyed when a stretch goal doesn’t add what I want, even though I was happy with the original levels when the KS first started?

See I don’t mind if people don’t like the stretch goals – most of the Ltd. Ed characters don’t do it for me, and I only like half the factions, so when one of the ones I don’t like gets something new it doesn’t help me – but to get annoyed at stretch goals when you’ve already pledged just reeks of entitlement. And if it’s not entitlement then I don’t understand it because there’s no logic behind it.

To veer away from fast food I’ll jump on the tired cliché of car dealerships. I want a Ford Mustang. I go in and buy a Ford Mustang. Later on they say that anyone who buys a Ford Mustang also gets a Kia Rio. I don’t want a Kia Rio... so I don’t buy the Mustang? See how that makes no logical sense.

You’ve got what you paid for. Anything more is a bonus. Cancelling your order because later items (especially later optional items) doesn’t make any sense.

And if you're putting money down in the hope of what might be available down the line, then that's your problem. Getting angry and storming off (your pledge money in tow) when it doesn't go the way you want isn't reasonable. It's petulant.

First: People are always entitled to withdraw their money if they're not satisfied with the Kickstarter for any reason. It's your coin, do as you will with it.

I will agree that if you were content with what as offered at the time of pledging X amount of money to the Relic Knight kickstarter, then it wouldn't make sense to cancel that pledge if they added more items to your reward level. That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion about stretch goals. Here's my view of them from an earlier post above. I'll paste it here in case you missed it.

The kickstarter began to move Relic Knights forward and take it from a few models to a full fledged game.

To achieve this the money will be used to "greatly accelerate the pace of sculpting, and now all six factions will be in high grade plastic!"

So mission accomplished. We did it guys! Relic Knights is going to be a viable miniatures game as of hitting the $20,000 mark. SPM have done what they set out to do. Everything after that was icing on the cake.

Stretch goals are additional funding for goals set after the initial or main goal. Thus the funding up until this point has been not just for the Relic Knights tabletop game, but also for:

Expediting manufacturing of all six RK factions

Casino quality cards

Base inserts

Plastic tokens

Special Edition miniatures

Faction Starter Boosts

Optional Extras

Optional Extras Boosts!

More base inserts

Collectively, we have paid for all those goals to be reached. I don't believe it's unfair, then, that someone disagree with the handling of the reward or fulfillment of those goals.

Ultimately, everyone's going to decide for themselves if they're in or out.

I don't have any money invested at the moment precisely because I'm now waiting to see what the whole package looks like. Which unfortunately we won't have a clear picture of until Saturday.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is fairly simple - RK fans are disappointed by Non-RK stretch Goals.

Of which there are a whole two. *gasp*
And neither of which require any more money, because they've already pledged. *double gasp*
Meaning that the goals impact them in zero ways. *triple super gasp*

The fact that you continue to not get why people are disappointed by non-RK stretch goals in a RK Kickstarter is both puzzling and hilarious, in a distinctly non-gasp worthy fashion.

WHOO!!!!
I got an early bird double saviour!!!!

HAPPY DANCE!!!!!!


Now back to not talking about McDonalds analogies

 Alpharius wrote:
The fact that you continue to not get why people are disappointed by non-RK stretch goals in a RK Kickstarter is both puzzling and hilarious, in a distinctly non-gasp worthy fashion.

Then maybe you can explain it better, Ken.

I'll simply restate what I've been saying from the start, and you point out the error and explain the difference:

If you pledged because you liked what was already there, and then later decided to withdraw funds because you didn't like the additions, then your actions don't make sense because what you originally wanted is still there and hasn't changed.

Is it really this hard to understand?

If you pledged for a RK Kickstarter you might want to see stretch goals for RK stuff and not for things you don't want?

We all get that all the other stuff is still there, and we don't have to buy things we don't want. But the non-RK stretch goals feel like a diversion and like they are taking the place of stretch goals for things related directly to RK.

I think you're just trying to be difficult here...or maybe your love of SDE has tinted your view?

How about its not really about the stretch goals, but rather the company itself.

You invested in a company that is going to make products you want (maybe). Yes, they will continue to make the product you initially wanted, but in the process of asking for your INVESTMENT (not a purchase), they took some strange turns.

They stopped talking to you.
They agree they ended up with extra money, and only then decided to create a product that should already have been made (cards, bases and tokens?).
They agree they have extra money so invest in something completely different.
They refuse to show you early versions of their product--the one you are trying to fund.
They refuse to answer questions.

They, in general, look incompetent.

Yeah, I think its reasonable to come to that assumption and potentially back out. If this was a stock buy-in, I don;t think I'd trust this company to meet its goal and I'd take my money out.