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Yeah, if anything the points need to drop across the board for daemons. And as for the Screamers and Flamers if they remove the EW rule for Daemons then those two are costed correctly.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And as for the Screamers and Flamers if they remove the EW rule for Daemons then those two are costed correctly.

They won't ever miss an opportunity to over balance a unit, you can rest assured of that.

"Screamers and Flamers are too dangerous!"
"What would fix them?"
"Points increase or removing EW."
"I know - let's do both!"

Well, most important is that Daemons seem to get an actual codex, not another WD update.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
What bothers me is the rumor of point increases across the board for both games. In Fantasy, I can understand it. 40k? Not without some serious changes. Daemonettes should be cheaper, or be able to attack on the turn they DS. Honestly, they should only be about 10 points a piece, given the cost of where SMs are headed. Bloodletters need to gain AP2 on their swords and/or the option for axes, with preferred enemy everyone, or else a decrease in points down to 14ish, etc, etc. I can understand Flamers going up in price (23 is way too cheap for what they do), but some of the other things...to hell with that.

I call absolute BS on "across the board pts increases".

GW's MO for both 8th ed & 6th ed has been to drastically cut the costs of Core/Troops and only really nerf those units that were spamed ad nausium over the past year or two. They want us bulking up on our basics and adding all the shiny new stuff, while also buying the old "crap/underpowered" units.

In Fantasy I can see Bloodletters getting a pts increase upto say 14-15pts/model since they are effectively non-armoured T3 Chaos Warriors! But then I can also postentially see GW giving 'Letters back their own armour save/scaley skin as well.
But Horrors are fine right now, perhaps even a bit nerfed by the Magic Phase changes, Plaugebearers are gimped and Daemonettes are over-costed!

In 40k, every one of our Scoring units are are dedly over-costed! Even Horrors who are considered 'the best' choice aren't worth +1pt more than a Tactical Marine.
If anything, I can see Horrors costing the same as the new DA/CSM basic pts cost, Bloodletters drop slightly and perhaps even gain a slight armour save, Plaguebearers drop a point as well, and Daemonettes become 8-10pts or so per model. (really, T3/5++ is pretty much 'horde standard' and they need to be fielded as such to be viable!)


As for those rampaging Flamers/Screamers? As mentioned numerous itmes, ditch the army-wide Eternal Warrior and they're perfectly fine.

The fact that people have so much trouble dealing with them right now is more in part to opponents not bringing basic small arms & other anti-infantry options to the table... If you still insist on playing like it's 5th ed with max melta-spam then, well, it's not the Daemon player's fault you can't deal with their army!

 azreal13 wrote:

BOLS wrote:
- New Daemon-engine, bipedal with atypical porportions, uses ectoplasmic weaponry of CSMs, has numerous options for CC or Ranged loadout. (40K- Heavy, WFB-Special)
- New Daemon flying MC. (40K-Fast Attack-flyer, WFB-Rare)

Please please pleeeease let them be more creative and interesting sculpts than the CSM dragonzord/gobots that just released!

PLEASE!

 matphat wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

BOLS wrote:
- New Daemon-engine, bipedal with atypical porportions, uses ectoplasmic weaponry of CSMs, has numerous options for CC or Ranged loadout. (40K- Heavy, WFB-Special)
- New Daemon flying MC. (40K-Fast Attack-flyer, WFB-Rare)

Please please pleeeease let them be more creative and interesting sculpts than the CSM dragonzord/gobots that just released!

PLEASE!

I'm actually less bothered about the models than the rules in this instance. It's normally a visual thing for me with a new army, the models HAVE to be right for me to start, which isbwhy I've struggled to start Warmachine as I don't like the aesthetic much.

For DoC though, there are soooo many alternate models out there, plus such scope for conversion that if I don't like a model I'll find an alternative that I do, and if I can't find one I'll create one. I can do that and actually make my army more fluffy and chaotic looking.

None of that matters if they're bonk on the tabletop though!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Larry Vela wrote:So remember all that talk of Chaos Daemons coming soon on the heels of the Dark Angels? Well here is what the cold voices on the wind portend...
via tsetse fly

Incoming Chaos Daemon Wave:

It is believed to be a Q1 release. There is conflicting chatter as to whether the Codex is coming as well, or whether it is a miniatures-only wave with White Dwarf rules like we say in Q4-12.

Miniatures:

BloodThirster
Great Unclean One,
New Nurgle "jetbikes" - Described as GIANT FLIES with Plaguebearer Riders!!!
Khornate Chariot with dual-build options.
-Option 1: Transport (holds a big squad of daemons, opened top)
-Option 2: Cannon Variant (autocannon equivalent blast template, medium range)

~More as we get it. Nurgle flying cav sounds totally cool! This does sound like its is roughly along wiht lines of the last Chaos Daemons wave. It has a new cav unit, a chariot to use those new 40k chariot rules, and a couple of new Majors thrown in for good measure. This is a good thing. The current GW Major Daemons are ancient and kind of embarrassing by modern production standards.

For the work blocked.

Hastings said late last year though we would getting "books".
Outside of his release months being off by a month or so, when was the last time Hastings confused army book/codex for 'WD rules'?!

Besides, Daemons need;
a) A serious balancing act in Fantasy, since it's still laughably easy to make auto-win builds.

b) A serious balancing act in 40k to bring them into line with proper pts costings, better deployment (ie: f -off with your BS rolling for waves stupidity!), a bit more shooty power outside of 'just play Tzeentch' and SOMETHING to make the army viable against Derp Knights.

I agree on the "derp knights". Im about to start playing 40k against a GK player, and my wife would like to get in on the action, but her collection/army so far is daemons...almost no point in their current condition.

Experiment 626 wrote:
In 40k, every one of our Scoring units are are dedly over-costed! Even Horrors who are considered 'the best' choice aren't worth +1pt more than a Tactical Marine.
I can see Horrors costing the same as the new DA/CSM basic pts cost, Bloodletters drop slightly and perhaps even gain a slight armour save, Plaguebearers drop a point as well, and Daemonettes become 8-10pts or so per model. (really, T3/5++ is pretty much 'horde standard' and they need to be fielded as such to be viable!)

With the new DA book, the standard for Tac marines dropped to 14 points. 14 point Horrors would be nice for the Daemons player, but seems a bit undercosted. Maybe 15 points apiece?

Bloodletters - make them 15 points, give them an option to pay 3 points/model to gain a 4+ armor save.

Daemonettes - 10 points seems pretty cheap, maybe 12?

Plaguebearers - current points cost is not bad at 15.

Nurglings - cost is fine, just make them scoring.

 nolzur wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
In 40k, every one of our Scoring units are are dedly over-costed! Even Horrors who are considered 'the best' choice aren't worth +1pt more than a Tactical Marine.
I can see Horrors costing the same as the new DA/CSM basic pts cost, Bloodletters drop slightly and perhaps even gain a slight armour save, Plaguebearers drop a point as well, and Daemonettes become 8-10pts or so per model. (really, T3/5++ is pretty much 'horde standard' and they need to be fielded as such to be viable!)

With the new DA book, the standard for Tac marines dropped to 14 points. 14 point Horrors would be nice for the Daemons player, but seems a bit undercosted. Maybe 15 points apiece?

Bloodletters - make them 15 points, give them an option to pay 3 points/model to gain a 4+ armor save.

Daemonettes - 10 points seems pretty cheap, maybe 12?

Plaguebearers - current points cost is not bad at 15.

Nurglings - cost is fine, just make them scoring.

a) 14-15pts/model for Pinkies *IF* they keep Warpfire as it currently stands.
While their shooting does about the same damage as a rapid firing Tactical Squad, they're still kept in check by being just BS3 and T3/4++ could potentially become just the basic rulebook T3/5++ meaning they'll die in droves.

b) Bloodletters are complete terds right now, dropping them 1 entire whole point means litterly nothing has changed! Then jacking them upto a hypothetical total of 18pts/model for a 4+ save on an assault unit that is forced to always Deep Strike into play?
Congrats, you've just killed Bloodletters entirely!

15pts/model should include a 4+ save. They're only ap3 in combat and they don't need to improve on that, beyond a 'Champion only' upgrade and/or Heralds getting an ap2 option. (and IMHO, Bloodletters themselves don't need any kind of ap2 option since Slaaneshii units, Screamers, Heralds & MC's already exist!)

c) Daemonettes could still be 8pts/model and still be prettt fairly balanced...
I mean, how hard is really to kill a piddly little T3/5++ model that is forced to stand about doing nothing for a turn beyond a re-rollable D6" run move?! They're no harder to kill than Ork Boyz and they're damage output is about the equal of a Slugga Boy all told.

d) People only take 'Bearers currently to hold objectives and/or to protect Eppie. Even a point or two drop would be welcomed since they have no shooting, are saddled with Slow and Purposeful, and only boast a single attack per stinker.
They're good now yes, but expensive for what little overall impact they have since a bad scatter can easily ruin the unit's playability.

e) Swarms IIRC never count as Scoring. Nurglings should be no different!

via anonymous on Faeit212 wrote:
Nothing was wrong with the dates I provided, I guess I just wasn't clear.
Febuary WD is daemons, march WD is flyers.
At least, in so far as the white dwarf released in feb, etc.
The white dwarf released in december had DAngels for instance.

It's back to back releases with a heavier focus on 40k for the next year to two years to get all the army books up to date. Then expect new units in white dwarf releases and army updates to spot fill anything that needs a boost here or there. Then it will be a primary focus on expansions and supplements as opposed to just a revolving door of codexes.

6th edition is here to stay.

 pretre wrote:

via anonymous on Faeit212 wrote:
Nothing was wrong with the dates I provided, I guess I just wasn't clear.
Febuary WD is daemons, march WD is flyers.
At least, in so far as the white dwarf released in feb, etc.
The white dwarf released in december had DAngels for instance.

It's back to back releases with a heavier focus on 40k for the next year to two years to get all the army books up to date. Then expect new units in white dwarf releases and army updates to spot fill anything that needs a boost here or there. Then it will be a primary focus on expansions and supplements as opposed to just a revolving door of codexes.

6th edition is here to stay.

That sounds like it'll be announced at the end of February and available to buy in March. I had hope it would be announced in the next WD (at the end of January) and available to buy in February.

It will be, from what the source says; the next WD is the February issue, released end Jan.

HarryLeChien wrote:
It will be, from what the source says; the next WD is the February issue, released end Jan.

It looks like from what Faet was clarifying, was he meant the WD released in Feb, as the Feb WD.

I will honestly be really surprised if we See Daemons released in March. April, I could possiblely see, but I would be really surprised with a back to back release.

No worries, Sasori. If they don't come out in March, he'll just say he meant that they were in warehouses in Feb, pre-order in March and release in April.

Ah my mistake sorry, I assumed he was referring to the cover date not the publication date, re-reading what was said I think you are correct (I also think I got my WoC mixed up with my DoC ).

I think many of us will be surprised with back-to-back releases but rumours have pointed both to an increased rate of codex/book production and daemons out feb /march for a while now so I for one am hopeful.

I know it's an outside chance but has anyone heard any more on what base size the GDs are going on.

I've heard the large oval rumour, and I've got a counts as BT that I need to decide on a base for!

If it was known, it would be here.

 pretre wrote:
If it was known, it would be here.

Yeah, figured. Thought there was a small chance a few nuts might fall out if I shook the tree.

 pretre wrote:
No worries, Sasori. If they don't come out in March, he'll just say he meant that they were in warehouses in Feb, pre-order in March and release in April.

Sounds like he's just trying to cover his ass to me too.

And nobody is at all disturbed by his comment of "6th is here to stay"? We all know it's GW's policy to keep making changes to editions to invalidate codexes so that the good stuff becomes bad and the bad becomes good (Spawn in the 4th->6th codex change? Bad->AMAZING!) If they didn't do this, they wouldn't keep selling all models, only a few. I don't buy the rumors at all, based on the source and the information he puts out that flies in the face of GW tradition. That said, with Wells gone, maybe there will be changes? Maybe that was the start to changing the game.

Here to stay for a few years maybe, or it might mean we'll see v6.22 and it'll be awesome!

 pretre wrote:

via anonymous on Faeit212 wrote:
Nothing was wrong with the dates I provided, I guess I just wasn't clear.
Febuary WD is daemons, march WD is flyers.
At least, in so far as the white dwarf released in feb, etc.
The white dwarf released in december had DAngels for instance.

It's back to back releases with a heavier focus on 40k for the next year to two years to get all the army books up to date. Then expect new units in white dwarf releases and army updates to spot fill anything that needs a boost here or there. Then it will be a primary focus on expansions and supplements as opposed to just a revolving door of codexes.

6th edition is here to stay.

I don't believe this rumor for a second. It is too logical and good for the fans and allows new players a chance to actually get to know the entire rules set for the first time in the history of 40k.

Lots of wish listing and talk of how to fix troops. What I would most like to see is pink horrors go old school and split into blues. GW could release a box of 20 blue horrors that are grot sized for the same cost as pink horrors, everyone with pinkies also has to buy blues, and GW doubled the $ price of pink horrors while making the player base happy.

As far as rules pinkies at 17 or 18 same stats except only a 5+ splitting into 2 blues with grot stats and the deamon usr sounds about right...one could wish.

This thread has not been updated from some time. You were doing a gre8 job in the past...

When there is something new to update it with, then it will be updated.

Is the "Watch it burn" video on GW for the upcoming Chaos Deamons? I don't see any mention of it here, or did I miss it?

No it's for Warriors of Chaos. The Silhouette of the gimpy handed Chaos Lord is briefly shown.

With the statement by a Birdy, that WD will no longer have updates, See:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/502759.page

Do you think will we will get actual books in march or will they release other form of an update, like a PDF or in-store pamflet

They may well just release the models with no rules, then you'll have to wait for a codex update (whenever that comes) if this is true

The pamphlet idea suffers from identical problems to WD, it will eventually run out (and if free expect folk to grab it to ebay) so I can't imagine they'd do one.

and GW and pdfs' don't mix

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
They may well just release the models with no rules, then you'll have to wait for a codex update (whenever that comes) if this is true

The pamphlet idea suffers from identical problems to WD, it will eventually run out (and if free expect folk to grab it to ebay) so I can't imagine they'd do one.

and GW and pdfs' don't mix

I've worked for about two dozen professional businesses in my time.

I've never seen another company as inaccessible and poorly managed and marketed as GW.

It's a testament to how loyal gamers are.

Actually I take that back. American car companies were as bad, if not worse (Maybe minus the marketing) and look what happened to them.

Toyota or Honda needs to come out with a Wargame.