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 insaniak wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Stunned/Shaken effects on passengers lasts for a specific duration.

Nope. The difference is in the wording of how the two rules are applied.

Evade lasts for a specific duration, and while evading the flyer has other effects applied. So the flyer has to be evading for those effects to apply.

Stunned and Shaken don't apply to passengers for a specific duration... they are instant effects: Passengers in a stunned vehicle can not shoot in their next shooting phase. For the effect to be the same as the evasion issue, the damage chart would need to say that while the vehicle is stunned passengers can not shoot.

Fragile wrote:Personally if you get rid of the whole "its no longer a flyer argument" the rule becomes pretty simple.

The FAQ ruling on hovering flyers using skyfire suggests that we can't do that...

I don't read the FAQ that way. The FAQ does not say it is not a flyer.
The rule on flyers with the hover type (from page 81) state it must choose how it moves before it moves each movement phase. It also says a hovering flyer is treated exactly as a fast skimmer. The FAQ does not say it Is a fast skimmer, or that it stoped being a flyer. Only the stormtalons hover strike rule breaks the evade rule, because the storm talon is not a flyer with the hover type.

I think if the evading flyer was not allowed to move in hover mode it would have said, "must continue to zoom", somewhere in the rule??
Or page 81 would say " a flyer with hover mode must choose at the beginning of each turn if it is a flyer, or a fast skimmer"?!?
I had a moment of doubt insaniak, you almost got me. But the more I look at the flyer FAQ, the more I think a flyer is always a flyer,(except when it is a hover striking storm guppy).

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I don't read the FAQ that way. The FAQ does not say it is not a flyer.

No, but the fact that it can no longer Skyfire suggests that for that period it is not treated as one.

The concept that you cannot go into Hover Mode or perform a Hover Strike after Evading is absurd and unsupported by the rules. While you have to be Zooming to begin Evading, nowhere in the rulebook does anything indicate that Evading forces you to continue Zooming. Since your other options are still available as per their appropriate rules sections in the BRB (for Flyers with Hover Mode) or White Dwarf 389 (for the Stormtalon's Hover Strike), you can certainly use them after Evading-- nothing about these rules indicates that Evading restricts your choice of whether or not to use them.

I see some posts using the old WD article with the Stormtalon rules as justification to be able to avoid the effects of Evade. The 6th edition BRB pretty much overrides that article. Page 81 in the BRB is pretty clear on this, the "Hover 'Type'" box states, in big bold letters, "If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

Notice it doesn't say the flyer BECOMES a Fast Skimmer, just TREATED as a Fast Skimmer. It also doesn't say that the model is no longer a Flyer. It even says, "If a Flyer is hovering..." which, as far as the English language goes, means a hovering Flyer is STILL a Flyer, its just hovering.

So the Stormtalon remains a Flyer, and it still has to deal with the effects of Evade.

 Kingsley wrote:
The concept that you cannot go into Hover Mode or perform a Hover Strike after Evading is absurd and unsupported by the rules. While you have to be Zooming to begin Evading, nowhere in the rulebook does anything indicate that Evading forces you to continue Zooming. Since your other options are still available as per their appropriate rules sections in the BRB (for Flyers with Hover Mode) or White Dwarf 389 (for the Stormtalon's Hover Strike), you can certainly use them after Evading-- nothing about these rules indicates that Evading restricts your choice of whether or not to use them.

Except as they have pointed out, you must be zooming to claim to evade. Evade last until the end of the next controlling player's turn. Ergo if you choose to evade on your opponents turn you are still evading on your own turn, and as such must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the Evade, which in this case is zooming. Some of the Highlights to the Evade rule to think about, If a zooming flyer comes under fire.... can choose to evade until the end of your next turn.... and of course the whole last sentence. Those lines are not taken out of context as the context only talks about when the evade rolls are declared.

In the case of the storm talon choosing to use Hover Strike you will be unable to, as you are no longer a flyer at that point, and you must finish out the effects of Evade before you are allowed to change out the flyer type unless another rule specifically overrides that. Claiming that the status cannot roll over onto another turn is like claiming Shaken/Stunned don't carry over past the opponents turn, once we chose a course of action (or receive the damage result) we are bound by that course of action until the rules say otherwise.

ClassicCarraway wrote:
I see some posts using the old WD article with the Stormtalon rules as justification to be able to avoid the effects of Evade. The 6th edition BRB pretty much overrides that article. Page 81 in the BRB is pretty clear on this, the "Hover 'Type'" box states, in big bold letters, "If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

Notice it doesn't say the flyer BECOMES a Fast Skimmer, just TREATED as a Fast Skimmer. It also doesn't say that the model is no longer a Flyer. It even says, "If a Flyer is hovering..." which, as far as the English language goes, means a hovering Flyer is STILL a Flyer, its just hovering.

So the Stormtalon remains a Flyer, and it still has to deal with the effects of Evade.

Stormtalons don't have the Hover type. They have the Hover Strike rule, which actually changes their type to Skimmer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
Except as they have pointed out, you must be zooming to claim to evade. Evade last until the end of the next controlling player's turn. Ergo if you choose to evade on your opponents turn you are still evading on your own turn, and as such must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the Evade, which in this case is zooming. Some of the Highlights to the Evade rule to think about, If a zooming flyer comes under fire.... can choose to evade until the end of your next turn.... and of course the whole last sentence. Those lines are not taken out of context as the context only talks about when the evade rolls are declared.

Just because you need to be Zooming to begin Evading does not mean that you have to remain Zooming while Evading. The idea that "you must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the evade" is made up out of whole cloth and unsupported by any rule anywhere.

ClassicCarraway wrote:
I see some posts using the old WD article with the Stormtalon rules as justification to be able to avoid the effects of Evade. The 6th edition BRB pretty much overrides that article. Page 81 in the BRB is pretty clear on this, the "Hover 'Type'" box states, in big bold letters, "If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

Notice it doesn't say the flyer BECOMES a Fast Skimmer, just TREATED as a Fast Skimmer. It also doesn't say that the model is no longer a Flyer. It even says, "If a Flyer is hovering..." which, as far as the English language goes, means a hovering Flyer is STILL a Flyer, its just hovering.

So the Stormtalon remains a Flyer, and it still has to deal with the effects of Evade.

The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
Just because you need to be Zooming to begin Evading does not mean that you have to remain Zooming while Evading. The idea that "you must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the evade" is made up out of whole cloth and unsupported by any rule anywhere.

Except that only a zooming flyer can evade. Read the first highlight from the rules section I posted, if a zooming flyer comes under fire. That means you had to have been zooming to activate Evade, and therefore Evade is contingent upon the speed of the flyer.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Just because you need to be Zooming to begin Evading does not mean that you have to remain Zooming while Evading. The idea that "you must continue to move at a speed appropriate to maintain the evade" is made up out of whole cloth and unsupported by any rule anywhere.

Except that only a zooming flyer can evade. Read the first highlight from the rules section I posted, if a zooming flyer comes under fire. That means you had to have been zooming to activate Evade, and therefore Evade is contingent upon the speed of the flyer.

You must be Zooming to activate Evade. Nobody disagrees with this. However, once Evade is activated, there is no rule that mandates that a Flyer continue to Zoom. Further, even if there were such a rule, a Stormtalon would not be affected by it, as when it uses its special Hover Strike ability it is no longer a flyer but rather a Skimmer and is no longer affected by rules that apply to Flyers. In some cases, this provides an advantage-- as with Evading and then firing at full ballistic skill-- and in some cases, this provides a disadvantage-- as with being unable to Skyfire. You have to take the good with the bad.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:


The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.

You did notice that the word "Type" is actually in separate quotations from the word "Hover" in the BRB? That would mean that Hover Strike, Hover Attack, Hover Whatever is subject to this rule. All Hover rules for flyers previously published are covered by this.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:


The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.

You did notice that the word "Type" is actually in separate quotations from the word "Hover" in the BRB? That would mean that Hover Strike, Hover Attack, Hover Whatever is subject to this rule. All Hover rules for flyers previously published are covered by this.

The word 'Type' is in separate quotations because it is a subtype. All rules text for the Hover ability clearly specifies that it applies to the Hover type rather than the Space Marine Stormtalon's Hover Strike special ability.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:


The storm talon does not have Hover though, it has its own Hover Strike rule.

You did notice that the word "Type" is actually in separate quotations from the word "Hover" in the BRB? That would mean that Hover Strike, Hover Attack, Hover Whatever is subject to this rule. All Hover rules for flyers previously published are covered by this.

Look in the appendices in the back, see the storm talon there? Notice it's not a hover type flyer? We can now move on since it's a flyer, not a Flyer (hover) that has the ability to move with its hover. It has its own unique rule called hover strike, it does not have the hover type.


Yes, you must be zooming to activate, and that means in order to claim the jink save on a flyer you must be at zooming. Since you are evading until the end of your following turn, that means you must adhere to the rules of evading until the end. And one of the rules for evading is that you must be at zooming speed, thus if you choose (remember, Evade is entirely voluntary to start, the choice to be stuck at zooming speed is a choice the person using the vehicle makes thus must live with) to evade you have to carry out the rules for it. And Evade lasts until the end of your next turn. You have to be zooming to use evade (we've shown those rules), and zooming is a part of evade because only a zooming flyer can evade. If you choose to evade you have to live with the restriction that Evade can only be done with a zooming flyer, and you must maintain zooming until the end of the next turn because Evade tells us that's how long it lasts and in order for Evade to be a viable form of defense (since we are told it continues beyond that turn we have to keep it viable) you have to maintain zooming because Evade does not happen if you are not zooming.

I dont see the problem.. If you choose to evade you commit to doing so until the end of your next turn. You can only evade if you are a flyer (page 81 BRB) so that would mean that in the case of the stormtalon it cannot switch to hover strike because it would change it's type to skimmer which means it wouldn't be able to evade anymore (which it must still do due to having opted to do so last turn). For regular flyers who have the hover mode it wouldn't be a problem to switch to hover mode because it is simply treated as a fast skimmer but remains to be a flyer (thus keeping the snap fire restrictions).

I'd say that means the storm talon couldn't switch to hover strike because it is committed to be evading which it can only do as a flyer.

Just my two cents

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
And one of the rules for evading is that you must be at zooming speed

This is a rule that you have invented. You have to be Zooming to BEGIN Evading. Nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you must remain Zooming while doing so.

Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

My argument is a little off topic, because the OP was talking about the Storm Talon. This is about flyers with hover.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

There is no evidence to support this. Zooming is part of evade. Zooming is not the whole of evade. The rule is not broken by hover. When they wrote the rule for evade they knew that some flyers had the ability to move in hover mode. Look at the rule for leaving combat airspace on page 81 of the BRB. Notice how it says when ariving from Ongoing Reserves must zoom on to the board? That is an example of a restriction to a rule. When the rule system wants to restrict something, it is spelled out.
Look at the locked velocity result. If your velocity is locked you can't evade. When they want to restrict something they do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

Please post a rules citation that explains how switching to Hover Mode (for a normal Flyer) or performing a Hover Strike (for a Stormtalon) breaks the Evade rule in any way. You must be Zooming to begin evading, but there is no rule that states you must remain in Zoom Mode for the duration of the evasion process.

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

Please post a rules citation that explains how switching to Hover Mode (for a normal Flyer) or performing a Hover Strike (for a Stormtalon) breaks the Evade rule in any way. You must be Zooming to begin evading, but there is no rule that states you must remain in Zoom Mode for the duration of the evasion process.

He did that a couple of pages ago.

Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

This is spot-on. After reading through all of this thread, and rereading the sect in the BYB, WD, and FAQ, I have to say this guy got it right. Too many people get stuck on what they originally thought and absolutely refuse to change their opinion, even after many people point out the flaws in their arguments.

Anyone who reads what Dave wrote here and still thinks switching modes lets you ignore the ongoing effects on you, might as well just get some white-out and change the rules in their book to whatever makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

This sounds convincing but unfortunately isn't what the rules actually say. The Evade rule does not say that next turn you may only fire snap shots. The Evade rule says that an Evading Flyer may only fire snap shots. A Stormtalon that uses Hover Strike is no longer a Flyer, so is not affected by this rule.

What the rules say is that you can choose to evade until the end of your next turn. So either you evade untill the end of y our next turn or you don't evade at all. If you evade you still HAVE to evade next turn. Since the storm talon's hover strike changes it's type to skimmer (as opposed to flyers with a hover mode) that simply means it cannot change to hover mode since only flyers can evade. You MUST evade until the end of your next turn and the only way to do so is by zooming

This is simple, and you put it down in black and white. It says it changes its TYPE to SKIMMER. That means it's no longer a FLYER. Period. If a type is changed, then the unit no longer counts as the other unit. There is no ambiguity here at all. Its type changed. The TO was wrong.

 Kingsley wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except where it says the process of evading lasts a complete turn, and does not allow you to alter this. You have to be zooming to maintain evade, as you have no permission to breakthe evade rule

Please post a rules citation that explains how switching to Hover Mode (for a normal Flyer) or performing a Hover Strike (for a Stormtalon) breaks the Evade rule in any way. You must be Zooming to begin evading, but there is no rule that states you must remain in Zoom Mode for the duration of the evasion process.

Apart fromthe Evade rule itself, which requires you to be a zooming flyer. For the duration. If you try to switch modes you are no longer a zooming flyer, and have not evaded for the complete turn required, breaking the evade rule

Please post a rule allowing you to NOT evade for a full turn. Page and para

 Sirmauz wrote:
This is simple, and you put it down in black and white. It says it changes its TYPE to SKIMMER. That means it's no longer a FLYER. Period. If a type is changed, then the unit no longer counts as the other unit. There is no ambiguity here at all. Its type changed. The TO was wrong.

Not arguing that changing mode to hover would do that. That's why i'd say you can't switch to hover because you'd be breaking the evade rule. If you CAN switch that still doesn't absolve you from an effect you got while still a flyer. It doesn't make sense, RAW and Rai

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Turn A.
Your flyer evades - so next turn you may only fire snap shots.
Turn B.
You can hover, hover strike, turn into a lemon, or whatever you like, but the effect of evade is that you may only fire snap shots this turn.
You're now a FMC? You may only fire snap shots.
You're a skimmer? You may only fire snap shots.

The only possible way there could be a conflict is if you turned into something that could not snap shot at all. Fortunately there is no such thing so simply - you may only fire snap shots the turn after you evade no matter what.

This sounds convincing but unfortunately isn't what the rules actually say. The Evade rule does not say that next turn you may only fire snap shots. The Evade rule says that an Evading Flyer may only fire snap shots. A Stormtalon that uses Hover Strike is no longer a Flyer, so is not affected by this rule.

Wouldn't this apply now:

BRB FAQ v1a wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

It would seem that changing type or Flying Mode to Hover or using Hover Strike would have no effect on how to resolve Snap Shots.

40k-noob wrote:
It would seem that changing type or Flying Mode to Hover or using Hover Strike would have no effect on how to resolve Snap Shots.

The problem is, one side is claiming that by switching to hover mode they completely lose the flyer aspect, and thus are no longer evading. If they are no longer evading the need not make snap shots. In other words according to their side the FAQ part you quoted will not take effect as they aren't making a snap shot.

My thoughts on the discussion are this, with the evade rule we have to be zooming to initiate, which means we have to be zooming to evade since we have no rule that overrides the zooming portion. That I feel is the problem with the other side's argument, they haven't been able to adequately produce a rule refuting the zooming statement. Remember, with a permissive ruleset we need permission to do something. The permission is a zooming flyer can evade. Whether it is only to initiate the evade or maintain zoom, we don't know because the rules don't tell us, so we have to apply the rule that we need to be zooming to initiate evade to the entire evade process. The reason we apply this is it is a restriction to evade at one point (the start), and without clear rules telling us we may change the speed we move, we have to apply it. This is because once we choose (remember the entire thing is voluntary) to evade we have to wait until the end of the next turn to fire normally. Hover strike does not give clear and explicit rules that allow it to override evade.

If they stop becoming a Flyer, there is no rules to allow them to become a Flyer again. They become a Skimmer until the next Movement phase, well what happens then? They are no longer a Skimmer and since they lost Flyer to change into a Skimmer, what are they? The rule doesnt state to change type to Flyer again.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
It would seem that changing type or Flying Mode to Hover or using Hover Strike would have no effect on how to resolve Snap Shots.

The problem is, one side is claiming that by switching to hover mode they completely lose the flyer aspect, and thus are no longer evading. If they are no longer evading the need not make snap shots. In other words according to their side the FAQ part you quoted will not take effect as they aren't making a snap shot.

My thoughts on the discussion are this, with the evade rule we have to be zooming to initiate, which means we have to be zooming to evade since we have no rule that overrides the zooming portion. That I feel is the problem with the other side's argument, they haven't been able to adequately produce a rule refuting the zooming statement. Remember, with a permissive ruleset we need permission to do something. The permission is a zooming flyer can evade. Whether it is only to initiate the evade or maintain zoom, we don't know because the rules don't tell us, so we have to apply the rule that we need to be zooming to initiate evade to the entire evade process. The reason we apply this is it is a restriction to evade at one point (the start), and without clear rules telling us we may change the speed we move, we have to apply it. This is because once we choose (remember the entire thing is voluntary) to evade we have to wait until the end of the next turn to fire normally. Hover strike does not give clear and explicit rules that allow it to override evade.

I see.

It seems pretty clear to me.

Step 1: Enemy hit my Zooming Flyer
Step 2: I choose to Evade, I am now restricted to Snaps Shots for my next shooting Phase.
Step 3: My Movement Phase, I choose use the Special Rule to Hover[other Flyers] or Hover Strike[Stormtalon] (note Hover Strike means I cannot move thus negating any benefit of Jink)
Step 4: Shooting Phase, my Flyer is still shooting Snap Shot because FAQ v1a says that no Special Rule can modify the BS of my Flyer since it has been restricted to making Snap Shots.

Changing Flying Mode is allowed because of a Special Rule, that change can not remove or change the restriction that has been placed on the model by Evading in the previous enemy shooting phase.

Except the change is NOT allowed, because you are then not Evading for a full turn, as only a zooming flyer can be Evading.

You cannot choose to break a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except the change is NOT allowed, because you are then not Evading for a full turn, as only a zooming flyer can be Evading.

You cannot choose to break a rule.

Actually you can change.

Hover Rule pg 81:
"A Flyer that has the Hover type can choose to Hover instead of Zooming. Hovering makes the Flyer slower, but considerably more agile."

Many point out that this game uses a permissive ruleset and well there you have it in black and white print.

A Flyer with Hover can CHOOSE.....

Unless the Evade special rule puts a specific restriction on this rule then this rule is still in effect. But even more importantly, who cares!!!

That model, Evading or not, can still only fire Snap Shots.


If anything I want my opponent to Hover or Hover Strike so I can decimate that model in my next shooting phase.