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What do you call people who break rules?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What do you call people who break rules?

The problem is that you assume you are right. GW has a notorious way of ruling things contrary to what common sense or RAW would say, which would suddenly leave you breaking the rules and being the "cheater"

The fact this thread went as far as it did means it needs addressing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What do you call people who break rules?

Depends. Are they breaking the rules intentionally, or do they not know the rule that well, and misunderstand it?

True enough. They are both cheating, but intent plays a part

Currently RAW you break the rules if you try to stop evading for a full turn

Nemesor Dave wrote:I see what you're saying but I disagree. The order of events is important. Your flyer evades and therefore the model may jink and only snap fire thereafter. The restrictions are not because you're "evading" but because you "evaded when you were a flyer". There is no step where you reevaluate if you are still a flyer.

I see your point, but I think your Jink and Snap Fire status immediately goes away once you become a non-Flyer. The status specifically says "Evading Flyers have" and does not state a time limit. If the rule said that "Evading Flyers have Jink and Snap Fire until the end of their next turn," I suspect you would be right-- but instead it simply says that Evading Flyers have Jink and Snap Fire and the Evade status itself lasts until the next turn.

40k-noob wrote:Wait!?!?
You agree that it is still evading but somehow what Evade does to the model no longer applies?!?!

So EVADE is not EVADE?

What is this Shakespeare?

Correct. The status "Evading" is separate from gaining Jink and Snap Fire. Having to Jink and Snap Fire is a consequence of this rule that only applies to Flyers. If an Evading model becomes a non-Flyer, it no longer gains Jink and Snap Fire.

slightly scared to weign in from the size of this



stormtalon is a flyer

it evades so gains the jink rule and snap shots rules

it enters however mode so changes from flyer to skimmer

since it isnt a flyer it loses the evade rule

it has lost the evade rule but that doesnt mean it loses the jink and snap shot rules it was given by the evade rule


its like a friend gives you a chocolate bar, if he then leaves you still have the bar, it doens tmagically get up and follow him out

destuctir wrote:
slightly scared to weign in from the size of this



stormtalon is a flyer

it evades so gains the jink rule and snap shots rules

it enters however mode so changes from flyer to skimmer

since it isnt a flyer it loses the evade rule

it has lost the evade rule but that doesnt mean it loses the jink and snap shot rules it was given by the evade rule


its like a friend gives you a chocolate bar, if he then leaves you still have the bar, it doens tmagically get up and follow him out

You have it backwards. When the Stormtalon evades, it gains the Evade rule. The Evade rule grants Evading Flyers Jink and Snap Shot. When the Stormtalon turns into a Skimmer, it still has the Evade rule, but because the Evade rule only grants Jink and Snap Shot to Flyers, the Stormtalon does not have Jink or Snap Shot.

This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

Happyjew wrote:Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

But, and this is a big but (not the kind Sir Mixalot likes), since it clearly states that you choose to have Evade until the end of your next turn, and you can't have Evade unless you are zooming, it's clear that you cannot stop zooming until the end of your next turn. Nowhere does it say that you can choose to stop Evading whenever you please, because it lasts until the end of your next turn. Therefore, since you can't stop Evading until the end of your next turn, and you can't Evade unless you are zooming, it's clear that you can't stop zooming until the end of your next turn.

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

BRB Page 81; Hover (bold point); "if a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a fast skimmer" Underlined word indicating the flyer never stops being a flyer, it just gets treated like a fast skimmer. The ruling was correct.

 Bausk wrote:

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

BRB Page 81; Hover (bold point); "if a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a fast skimmer" Underlined word indicating the flyer never stops being a flyer, it just gets treated like a fast skimmer. The ruling was correct.

Not talking about Hover. Stormtalon doesn't have Hover.

I know this thread is 8 pages but the last one or two pages would make it pretty what has been debated here.

Perhaps a small investment in time could bring you up to speed on the subject at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

Kinsley is ENTIRELY INCORRECT.

A Flyer does not gain EVADE. That is a complete misunderstanding of the Flyer unit type and it's USR's.
A Flyer has the EVADE USR by the mere nature of being a Flyer.

A player can CHOOSE to make use of the EVADE USR that is available to his flyer during the enemy shooting phase. In doing so, the Flyer GAINS Jink and is restricted to Snap Fire.

After having gained Jink and the restriction to Snap Fire, choosing to make a Hoverstrike does 3 things:
1. Changes the model's Unit Type to Skimmer
2. Restricts the model to being Stationary (not allowed to move)
3. Increases BS to 5

Making use of Hoverstike changes the model to a skimmer but does not loose Jink because, a Skimmer already has Jink, so that is a wash.
Making use of Hoverstrike does not remove the Snap Fire restriction because there is nothing in the HS rule that explicitly removes anything except movement.

Lastly, the FAQ explicity says that no Special Rule or piece of wargear can modify the BS of 1 once a model has been restricted to snap fire.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'd agree with the TO on this one. Can't say I'd be shocked if a GW FAQ later ruled the opposite way though.

Or if they ruled both ways at some point.

Really, this is a work around- you are trying to have the advantages of jinking without the rather costly disadvantages of jinking. Ultimately, just because his type changed does not mean that he did not jink last turn and is no longer subject to the effects of his jinking. I think the TO was right on this one too.

Also, this way there is a reason for him to decide not to jink (a real one, that is strategically important) rather than always getting the best of both worlds.

Now, GW's FAQs tend to be all kinds of crazy, and sometimes they give us 'clarifications' that have no bearing on the rules as written.

The stormtalon isn't just a flier or skimmer, it's still a stormtalon. If you use an ability that causes an effect, then you must adhere to the effects of that ability to its completion unless otherwise expressly stated in the rules...you can't just use an ability or movement to your advantage to get out of a negative consequence of something else, unless that something else expressly states that it can be used to do so. Your friend was trying to fudge the rules in his favor, if it had happened to him first then I am sure he would argue otherwise

Happyjew wrote:Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

I'm arguing against that. The vehicle has the Evading status until the end of its next turn. The Evading status grants Jink and Snapfire as long as you are a Flyer. Once you become a non-Flyer, you do NOT stop Evading. However, Jink and Snapfire stop applying, because these specifically apply only to Evading Flyers and not Evading Skimmers.

odinsgrandson wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'd agree with the TO on this one. Can't say I'd be shocked if a GW FAQ later ruled the opposite way though.

Or if they ruled both ways at some point.

Really, this is a work around- you are trying to have the advantages of jinking without the rather costly disadvantages of jinking. Ultimately, just because his type changed does not mean that he did not jink last turn and is no longer subject to the effects of his jinking. I think the TO was right on this one too.

Also, this way there is a reason for him to decide not to jink (a real one, that is strategically important) rather than always getting the best of both worlds.

Now, GW's FAQs tend to be all kinds of crazy, and sometimes they give us 'clarifications' that have no bearing on the rules as written.

Not quite. There are still reasons to decide not to jink. Hover Striking is a substantial disadvantage under normal circumstances because it causes you to lose the ability to Skyfire and makes you immobile. Further, once you've performed a Hover Strike, you lose your Hard to Hit status and cannot Jink on your next turn. These disadvantages make in impractical in most circumstances, even though it does allow you to shoot normally after Evading.

I'm gonna throw in on the "blatantly trying to bend the rules to your advantage" side here. Even if you can justify it as RAW to yourself (which I would disagree with, but to each his own) I think it clearly goes against RAI.

40k-noob wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

BRB Page 81; Hover (bold point); "if a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a fast skimmer" Underlined word indicating the flyer never stops being a flyer, it just gets treated like a fast skimmer. The ruling was correct.

Not talking about Hover. Stormtalon doesn't have Hover.

I know this thread is 8 pages but the last one or two pages would make it pretty what has been debated here.

Perhaps a small investment in time could bring you up to speed on the subject at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
This is an obvious case of trying to exploit a loophole which is CLEARLY not intended to exist.

Or, Kingsley, Crimson & co. are intentionally misinterpreting the rules.

Or, they fail to understand causality.

In either case, being this bloody-minded, about something so obvious, would mean I would never play a single game with them or anyone like them. If anything like this comes up in the tournament I'm entering in a weeks time, I'd have no problem marking this player as a "difficult opponent" and leave the match.

There really isn't any way to interpret the rule as anything other than RAW.

p.81: "After the enemy has rolled to hit against one of your flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap shots." (Italics added by me, Bold as in the BRB)

You choose to "Evade until the end of your next turn" which means you "EVADE UNTIL THE END OF YOUR NEXT TURN". There is NO ROOM for interpretation here.

In the same spirit of the "interpretation" that breaks this rule: It says in the rules that if there are no models from one side left on the table, then that side has lost. What it DOESN'T say is that I can't pick my opponent's models up and throw them on the floor, so if I'm losing the game, all I have to do is pick my opponents models up and throw them on the floor, and then I WIN! YAY! Effing stupid, but according to Kingsley and Crimson, that's allowed! Woohoo. Loophole: FOUND!

This rule is so obvious to anyone who's not trying to exploit or game the rules, I'm frankly surprised anyone would add their name to the argument. Trying to exploit the rules like this, and being this stubborn about it, marks you out as "TFG" to everyone, and would definitively exclude you from our gaming-group.

Kingsley (at least from the last few posts) is arguing that you cannot stop Zooming. His claim is that the vehicle doesn't have Jink/Snapfire for a turn, it's that thy have Evade for a turn, which is what grants them Jink/Snapfire. Since only Evading Flyers can Jink/Snapfire, the moment you are not a Flyer (such as Hovering/Hover Strike) you are not evading, and as such have broken the Evade rule.

Kinsley is ENTIRELY INCORRECT.

A Flyer does not gain EVADE. That is a complete misunderstanding of the Flyer unit type and it's USR's.
A Flyer has the EVADE USR by the mere nature of being a Flyer.

A player can CHOOSE to make use of the EVADE USR that is available to his flyer during the enemy shooting phase. In doing so, the Flyer GAINS Jink and is restricted to Snap Fire.

After having gained Jink and the restriction to Snap Fire, choosing to make a Hoverstrike does 3 things:
1. Changes the model's Unit Type to Skimmer
2. Restricts the model to being Stationary (not allowed to move)
3. Increases BS to 5

Making use of Hoverstike changes the model to a skimmer but does not loose Jink because, a Skimmer already has Jink, so that is a wash.
Making use of Hoverstrike does not remove the Snap Fire restriction because there is nothing in the HS rule that explicitly removes anything except movement.

Lastly, the FAQ explicity says that no Special Rule or piece of wargear can modify the BS of 1 once a model has been restricted to snap fire.

Geez man your right, I should have read the OP better. hes talking about a Storm Talon. Storm Talons are fast skimmers and are never flyers. They have Jink USR from being a Skimmer and the jink USE does not reduce your BS at all. A Storm Talon can never evade as its not a flyer. Thanks for pointing that out.

 Bausk wrote:
Geez man your right, I should have read the OP better. hes talking about a Storm Talon. Storm Talons are fast skimmers and are never flyers. They have Jink USR from being a Skimmer and the jink USE does not reduce your BS at all. A Storm Talon can never evade as its not a flyer. Thanks for pointing that out.

Stormtalons were changed to Flyers with the 6th Edition release.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Geez man your right, I should have read the OP better. hes talking about a Storm Talon. Storm Talons are fast skimmers and are never flyers. They have Jink USR from being a Skimmer and the jink USE does not reduce your BS at all. A Storm Talon can never evade as its not a flyer. Thanks for pointing that out.

Stormtalons were changed to Flyers with the 6th Edition release.

Fair nuff, then ow. Totally legal change to its base type when it hover strikes, bit beardy but legal.

Oh, look... Another rule that limits everyone except Spess Marehns!!! YAY!!!!

Space Marines are the only army that currently has the "hover" rule... If they keep the "oh, I evaded last turn, but now I'm hovering so as not to be subject to the penalty cost for the bonus I just recieved..." Then I would just tell whatever SM player that wanted to play against me, that I had to wash my hair...

Seriously, if you get the benefit of the one, without the cost... then you are WAAC... I'll call you the winner, and move on... I have 3 space marine forces... I will be using flyers... I will NOT claim that I get all the boons, and none of the banes... I believe the TO had it dead on...

 Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
Oh, look... Another rule that limits everyone except Spess Marehns!!! YAY!!!!

Space Marines are the only army that currently has the "hover" rule... If they keep the "oh, I evaded last turn, but now I'm hovering so as not to be subject to the penalty cost for the bonus I just recieved..." Then I would just tell whatever SM player that wanted to play against me, that I had to wash my hair...

Seriously, if you get the benefit of the one, without the cost... then you are WAAC... I'll call you the winner, and move on... I have 3 space marine forces... I will be using flyers... I will NOT claim that I get all the boons, and none of the banes... I believe the TO had it dead on...

As long as this debate has gone on, it's still debated amongst everyone, and we're unlikely to find a consensus on this forum. Make a ruling in your local gaming group and stick to it, according to how your friends see it.

DE Elder wrote:Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Being a flyer anymore is irrelevant; he shoots Snap Shots because he evaded, not because he is a flyer that evaded. Changing unit type doesn't change the fact that he evaded.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Being a flyer anymore is irrelevant; he shoots Snap Shots because he evaded, not because he is a flyer that evaded. Changing unit type doesn't change the fact that he evaded.

Yes, it doesn't chance the fact that it evaded. Evade rule however has no effects that affect skimmers.

Concur that once you've Evaded you're stuck with the aftereffects of Snap Shooting. Changing unit type doesn't take away that consequence.

this thread should be locked. debate is just going in circles.

my .02 cents