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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 azazel the cat wrote:
whembly wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mannahnin wrote:
 whembly wrote:
The issue is forcing an organization to cover something that runs contrary to their belief (Catholics). Note: I'm a heathen, so I don't really care, but understand why the Catholic Institution would consider this a intrusion to their belief.

I didn't realize that she was advocating forcing Catholics to take birth control pills.

She's not... look, you're being disingenuous here with that^ argument...

The religious freedom angle is backward here. No Catholic is being forced to violate their religious beliefs and use birth control pills. Organizations are being asked not to impose their religious beliefs on their employees and students, who have the right to make a different religious choice.

Frankly... that "freedom angle" you have is IS backwards...

To wit: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Let put it like this...

Let's say there's a PRIVATE company XYZ that offers cable services... and a manager is very Christian and is always praising the lord and such... constantly trying to "spread the glory of the lord" to his employee (but, is not breaking any company rules). Most folks would be, "eh" and blow him off. But, let's say there's a practicing muslim who is very uncomfortable about this...

Can this muslim sue his manager and XYZ company? [ the answer is NO, he has no case ]. And yes, we had a recent case like this in the midwest that the case was thrown out.


No, but if that manager does not allow the Muslim to pray facing Mecca, then he does have a case.
Correct, but that's not what we're talking about here...

To spell this out for you: you can't force the Catholics to take birth control pills; and the Catholics cannot force their employees to not do so.

I don't understand where you're saying the Catholics are forcing their employees to anything... they provide insurance coverage based on their belief as part of their compensation benefits... the employees are free to work for someone else if they don't like this compensation benefits.

Look, like I said earlier, I really don't care... and I understand both points.

But, you have to understand, the Catholics are backed in a corner here.

They won't simply drop the health benefit packages as they'll still have to pay the tax support the ACA (which runs contrary to their belief as the exchange covers those things).

They have a nuke button and don't think they won't entertain this...

This nuke button is to stop offering those services and shut down their operations (that is, no more schools, colleges, hospitals).

I think in the end, the HHS will relax the restrictions on the conscience exemption to allow them to not cover these things... you'll see.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Where's the Catholic uproar of war? Or cutting welfare and food stamps? Or any other issue that Jesus actually talked about?

More to the point, if contraception did nothing but stopped ladies from getting all pregnant and gak you might have an argument, maybe. It does lots of other things for Ovarian Americans, though, so stop hating on them.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
[EDIT: Manny check your PM. Q for you.


Was the question "Is it OK on these forums to call a woman whose politics I disagree with a whore"? Because I'd like to see the answer to that too.


Media whore. Get it right Yangeese.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

TheHammer wrote:
Where's the Catholic uproar of war? Or cutting welfare and food stamps? Or any other issue that Jesus actually talked about?

eh? they always talk about that dude... go to church sometimes (yes, a heathen dad sends his kidz to church and catholic school... hilarity ensued...)

More to the point, if contraception did nothing but stopped ladies from getting all pregnant and gak you might have an argument, maybe. It does lots of other things for Ovarian Americans, though, so stop hating on them.

Just to let you know, at least in my diocese, they'll cover the BC treatment for off-label use... you just need a doctor's note (fill a waiver form I think). [ I'm getting this from a friend who teaches at my boy's school ]

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Melissia wrote:
I wish Frazzled was the only person I had heard using that term to describe Fluke.

Sadly, Republicans have a fondness for using the term "whore" or "slut" and other such lovely appellations to describe women who support things like government-subsidized birth control, the right to choose to have an abortion, equal pay for women, or... well, any feminist topic. "Feminazi" comes to mind as well, as does "psycho lesbian bitch".

I would know, I've been called most of those myself for expressing those views... grassroots Republican movements really bring out the worst in the party.


media whore. You people should get your glasses checked.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 whembly wrote:
TheHammer wrote:
Where's the Catholic uproar of war? Or cutting welfare and food stamps? Or any other issue that Jesus actually talked about?

eh? they always talk about that dude... go to church sometimes (yes, a heathen dad sends his kidz to church and catholic school... hilarity ensued...)

More to the point, if contraception did nothing but stopped ladies from getting all pregnant and gak you might have an argument, maybe. It does lots of other things for Ovarian Americans, though, so stop hating on them.

Just to let you know, at least in my diocese, they'll cover the BC treatment for off-label use... you just need a doctor's note (fill a waiver form I think). [ I'm getting this from a friend who teaches at my boy's school ]


So you would defend the exact same position of a Christian Science institution to refuse to pay for any health insurance whatsoever because they don't believe in medicine?
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

So... the weather in N. Carolina is getting knarly:


http://charlotte.news14.com/content/weather/interactive_radar/612709/interactive-weather

*sorry... can't help it.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

It's difficult to express how affirming and moving Sister Simone Campbell's speech was last night. I know that this little gem will go largely unnoticed by many Democrats and will be scorned many Republicans (I've read the news today, after all) but what Sister Simone is talking about is authentic.




For anyone who hates on the Church, please listen to her message and ask yourself what role that hatred really serves in our society. I would be surprised if any lay people have faced the kind of ecclesiastical pressures that Sister Simone and her colleagues have and clearly, clearly they remain faithful Catholics committed to living out the Gospel.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

PhantomViper wrote:
 whembly wrote:
TheHammer wrote:
Where's the Catholic uproar of war? Or cutting welfare and food stamps? Or any other issue that Jesus actually talked about?

eh? they always talk about that dude... go to church sometimes (yes, a heathen dad sends his kidz to church and catholic school... hilarity ensued...)

More to the point, if contraception did nothing but stopped ladies from getting all pregnant and gak you might have an argument, maybe. It does lots of other things for Ovarian Americans, though, so stop hating on them.

Just to let you know, at least in my diocese, they'll cover the BC treatment for off-label use... you just need a doctor's note (fill a waiver form I think). [ I'm getting this from a friend who teaches at my boy's school ]


So you would defend the exact same position of a Christian Science institution to refuse to pay for any health insurance whatsoever because they don't believe in medicine?

Yup.

You're not forced to work for those institution... and why does everyone think employers are the ONLY source to get insurance? You can get 'em outside of your place of work. (but, alas, it can be more expensive depending on what you want).

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Don't know if this got posted, I got Guild Wars to play so I can't be bothered to actually read the thread, but pretty f'ing funny
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-5-2012/hope-and-change-2---the-party-of-inclusion
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Just listened to Bill.

He makes Zig Ziggler look like a rookie salesguy. Dang.

Edit: Thanks for posting Sister Simone Manchu.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/06 16:08:08


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The Great State of Texas

Too bad Bill is not running. Is it too late to change horses?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 Frazzled wrote:
Too bad Bill is not running. Is it too late to change horses?


But he is a great standard bearer for what the Democrats stand for.

I'm not sure if Republicans have the same right now, and I'm honestly not sure if it matters. The Repubs have plenty of standard bearers of their own. And enough voices can drown out Bill's one strong voice.

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The Great State of Texas

I don't care about standard bearers. Bill for Prez! out with the Amateur!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Manchu wrote:
It's difficult to express how affirming and moving Sister Simone Campbell's speech was last night. I know that this little gem will go largely unnoticed by many Democrats and will be scorned many Republicans (I've read the news today, after all) but what Sister Simone is talking about is authentic.




For anyone who hates on the Church, please listen to her message and ask yourself what role that hatred really serves in our society. I would be surprised if any lay people have faced the kind of ecclesiastical pressures that Sister Simone and her colleagues have and clearly, clearly they remain faithful Catholics committed to living out the Gospel.


She says that she agrees with with her Bishops, but this article and others I've read in the news says otherwvise. Other articles I've read say she takes issue with the Pope. Are these articles just hyperbole then? There's a lot I don't understand about the workings within Catholic religious orders and I would like to know from an insider whose opinion I respect what goes on here. The standing ovation she got was a huge contrast to the boos and disruption I saw with the alteration of the Democratic platform to include mention of God.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/nuns-on-the-bus-media-stunt-detracts-from-bishops-fortnight-for-freedom/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/06 16:38:22


 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 whembly wrote:
Yup.

You're not forced to work for those institution... and why does everyone think employers are the ONLY source to get insurance? You can get 'em outside of your place of work. (but, alas, it can be more expensive depending on what you want).


So is this a by product of your ("your" as in general American people, not you personally), view that "corporations are people too"? Because as far as I know, individuals have freedom of religion, companies are not individuals...

By that reasoning, shouldn't Catholic companies refuse to pay taxes because those are used to fund wars, or even to directly fund some states that enforce the death penalty? Isn't "thou shall not kill" a bit higher up in the 10 commandments than "thou shall not take the pill"?
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

PhantomViper wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Yup.

You're not forced to work for those institution... and why does everyone think employers are the ONLY source to get insurance? You can get 'em outside of your place of work. (but, alas, it can be more expensive depending on what you want).


So is this a by product of your ("your" as in general American people, not you personally), view that "corporations are people too"? Because as far as I know, individuals have freedom of religion, companies are not individuals...

This has nothing to do with "corporations are people".

By that reasoning, shouldn't Catholic companies refuse to pay taxes because those are used to fund wars, or even to directly fund some states that enforce the death penalty? Isn't "thou shall not kill" a bit higher up in the 10 commandments than "thou shall not take the pill"?

They're already tax exempt. (now, I disagree with this tho, but that's a different debate).

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






This is just something im wondering. And im not trying to insult anyones beliefs.
But i know alot of Christians find Mormonism weird and odd. I know a few that do myself, and in some place of the country it isnt even that big of a religion. Could people not vote for romney because of his religion.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Depends how severe the attack ads will be about mormonism.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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The Great State of Texas

No conservative I know cares.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This is just something im wondering. And im not trying to insult anyones beliefs.
But i know alot of Christians find Mormonism weird and odd. I know a few that do myself, and in some place of the country it isnt even that big of a religion. Could people not vote for romney because of his religion.


I'm Mormon myself, so no offense taken. I thought some of the beliefs were a tad strange until I did some studying and realized for me, there was a real logic behind them. At that point I got baptized into the church.
Kennedy faced the same hurdle when he ran for president in that he had to deal with people's fears of what the first Catholic President would be up to.


   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
This is just something im wondering. And im not trying to insult anyones beliefs.
But i know alot of Christians find Mormonism weird and odd. I know a few that do myself, and in some place of the country it isnt even that big of a religion. Could people not vote for romney because of his religion.


Well, if you are the type that cares about such things you are most likely a low information voter anyway. Your choices are:

1. White, Baby Boomer, Banker, Mormon guy

or

2. Black, Hippie, Socialist, Muslim guy

Which one is LEAST different from you?

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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





whembly wrote:To spell this out for you: you can't force the Catholics to take birth control pills; and the Catholics cannot force their employees to not do so.
I don't understand where you're saying the Catholics are forcing their employees to anything... they provide insurance coverage based on their belief as part of their compensation benefits... the employees are free to work for someone else if they don't like this compensation benefits.

We've had this exact conversation before, wherein I pointed out that this argument cuts both ways: if the Catholic Church doesn't like being forced to provide health care, then they are free to set up shop in a different country.



whembly wrote:This nuke button is to stop offering those services and shut down their operations (that is, no more schools, colleges, hospitals).

What you call a "nuke button", I call the best possible outcome. I'm unaware of how many Catholic-owned hospitalsare in the US, but I know what with the removal of Catholic schools and colleges, the US can actually make some progress towards being the world-leader in sciences again.
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 azazel the cat wrote:
whembly wrote:To spell this out for you: you can't force the Catholics to take birth control pills; and the Catholics cannot force their employees to not do so.
I don't understand where you're saying the Catholics are forcing their employees to anything... they provide insurance coverage based on their belief as part of their compensation benefits... the employees are free to work for someone else if they don't like this compensation benefits.

We've had this exact conversation before, wherein I pointed out that this argument cuts both ways: if the Catholic Church doesn't like being forced to provide health care, then they are free to set up shop in a different country.


Sorry thats not how the Bill of RIghts works. Fail: EPIC!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:This nuke button is to stop offering those services and shut down their operations (that is, no more schools, colleges, hospitals).

What you call a "nuke button", I call the best possible outcome. I'm unaware of how many Catholic-owned hospitalsare in the US, but I know what with the removal of Catholic schools and colleges, the US can actually make some progress towards being the world-leader in sciences again.


Wow just wow. This is the most bigoted, not to mention short sighted statement I've seen in at least three minutes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/06 19:04:10


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Az there are quite a few religion spnsored hospital. Two chains I know of around Seatle off the top of my head. Four chains around DC...actually what we call DelMarVa

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 azazel the cat wrote:
whembly wrote:To spell this out for you: you can't force the Catholics to take birth control pills; and the Catholics cannot force their employees to not do so.
I don't understand where you're saying the Catholics are forcing their employees to anything... they provide insurance coverage based on their belief as part of their compensation benefits... the employees are free to work for someone else if they don't like this compensation benefits.

We've had this exact conversation before, wherein I pointed out that this argument cuts both ways: if the Catholic Church doesn't like being forced to provide health care, then they are free to set up shop in a different country.

Az... you still don't get it... but, that's okay.

whembly wrote:This nuke button is to stop offering those services and shut down their operations (that is, no more schools, colleges, hospitals).

What you call a "nuke button", I call the best possible outcome. I'm unaware of how many Catholic-owned hospitalsare in the US, but I know what with the removal of Catholic schools and colleges, the US can actually make some progress towards being the world-leader in sciences again.

Just Catholic healthcare organizations make up between 30-40% (I forget the actual percentage)of all healhcare providers. It's a sizable number.

Not to mention to all the religious based schools and colleges.

If they were to drop those services... the pressure to local governnent to fill in the gap would be insurmountable.

Edit: it's actually about 15% of inpatient hospitals are operated by Catholic diocese...and approximately 20% of long term care/other community healthcare system are ran by the Catholics... it's still a sizable organization.

Then, there are other religious organzations too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/06 19:30:47


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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 azazel the cat wrote:
but I know what with the removal of Catholic schools and colleges, the US can actually make some progress towards being the world-leader in sciences again.
That is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted in the OT forum. Achievement Unlocked.

   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Finally someone had the conviction to point out that Notre Dame has been holding back the US.


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 whembly wrote:
it's actually about 15% of inpatient hospitals are operated by Catholic diocese...
Most Catholic healthcare is not operated by the diocese but rather by the orders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ahtman wrote:
Finally someone had the conviction to point out that Notre Dame has been holding back the US.
And Georgetown and BC and Marquette and on and on. Yes, the people MUST know!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/06 20:01:59


   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 Manchu wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
but I know what with the removal of Catholic schools and colleges, the US can actually make some progress towards being the world-leader in sciences again.
That is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted in the OT forum. Achievement Unlocked.


Nah. I don't think that comes close to Frazzled's Top Ten Posts O' Crazy...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ahtman wrote:
Finally someone had the conviction to point out that Notre Dame has been holding back the US.



If only we had won one for the Gipper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/06 20:03:47


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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