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@ Peregrine

Do you go to tournaments?

Anyone who brings a Horde list and slow-plays is a cheater. No phase is ever going to take a player an hour to complete and if it does he should not be playing competitively.

Logistically the tournament cannot set-up a bunch of 6 hour time slots because some slow player wants to bring 200 models. If you cannot push your models fast enough then play a smaller army. Very simple.

Good post.

Why should the entire tournament change its organization forcing all proper players to change lists just because one guy decides to be a douche?

He is the one who needs to fit in, not the other way around.

LValx wrote:
Logistically the tournament cannot set-up a bunch of 6 hour time slots because some slow player wants to bring 200 models. If you cannot push your models fast enough then play a smaller army. Very simple.

Here's an idea: if you can't leave enough time to finish even the slowest games, play at a lower point level. I really don't understand why tournament organizers are so obsessed with trying to find out the highest possible point limit they can fit into the smallest amount of time.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Most people in a tournament will run cheesy lists and that's 100% right as you want to win. Making lists that are clearly tailored to not playing but prolonging the game should be 100% illegal, the player should feel bad and be banned from the tournament.

And you have yet to give me a solid, consistent definition for what counts as "clearly tailored to prolonging the game".

If you do come up with a definition, please keep in mind that the quad gun battery I mentioned is exactly the same as a unit that was still effective in 5th edition when it took a tiny fraction of the time to resolve, so its mere presence in a list does not automatically mean that it's an attempt to play slowly.

Tailoring a list that's only aimed at making your turn as long as possible and thus force a lose to your enemy is abusing / exploiting the system and thus bannable behaviour. Just have a look at the competitive scene of online games and check how they treat exploiters. 40k is and should be no exception.

Most competitive games have clear rules about what counts as "slow play" and time limits that allow the vast majority of games to finish. For example, the rules in competitive MTG are perfectly clear and I don't remember seeing any dispute over them. Only in 40k is it considered reasonable to leave slow play to the random whim of the judge that day.

Banning such a slowpoke list was the only right decision in that case.

No, it was arbitrary and unfair to a player who brought a legal 40k army (and probably invested quite a bit of time and money into it). The simpler solution would be for the tournament organizer to stop being incompetent and create a tournament format where even the slowest lists will finish their games.

My most recent tourney experience was NOVA and you had 2.5 hours per round.

Generally you will get an average of 6 turns meaning 25 minutes per turn per player. Break that down into 8 minutes per phase. If a play cannot reasonably do this with their list they ought not take it (I know the math isn't exact).

You pay to attend the tournament, the organizers decide the rules.

You ask why not just play 500 pt tournies, to that I say, have you played a 500 pt game? The whole 40k system is horribly imbalanced at that point level. Newer, cost-efficient, codexes with good troops do SO MUCH better.

1500 Pts or above allows for players to bring variety and better balance the lists across the game, especially with the advent of allies (which are pricey due to the extra HQ tax).

Peregrine wrote:And you can whine all you like about TFG, but if the game contains units which make a phase take an hour (at a reasonable pace of thinking and rolling) than a competent tournament organizer needs to allow enough time for hour-long phases. If they can't, then they need to scale the point level back until the phase no longer takes an hour, even if that means they're running a 500 point tournament.

That is the most stupid thing I've heard on a forum ever. Have you ever run a tournament? Time is a very important factor to things going smoothly, and you only have so much of it. By your reckoning each round should be 6+ hours just so you can troll around with a combo that you have already admitted is for S&G because of the time it takes; I must admit I can't tell if you are being serious or trolling here. If the guy above is talking about TFG, it is because you said earlier that a win is a win, even if you intentionally just try to make your opponent rage-quit the game. That's kind of pathetic dude.

As for your assertions that it just takes that time for armies like Green Tide to play, that's a load of crap. At the last tourney I was at I played Green Tide at 1999pts, and we got our game finished fine. It doesn't take that long to take a turn unless you are trying to take that long. It's that simple.

I've done horde Nids vs horde Orks at 1850 and we finished 5 turns before 2 hours were up. It would've been pushing to do 6 turns, but we were cutting up and having fun the whole time...

 Instinctual wrote:
Holy crap Peregrine, thats nasty!

My favorite broken issue in the C:SM is to spam Telion on the Quad gun. If you take a main contingent of SM, and allies SM you can have two of him. He is unique per army, but allies are technically a separate army, just use separate vanilla chapter and do "counts as" . Drop him behind an ADL and man the Quadgun, now you've got 2x S7 snipers with four shots each that have the Precision special rule on all shots Thats two dead ICs per round, and or 2 dead fliers. Plus, with the upgrades of stealth and the cloaks, Telion and crew gets a 2++ cover save, meaning these units will wind up eating alot of fire power. Not sure if it qualify as broken, but its nasty

You can't shoot a quad gun more than once per turn either.

Yep, this is why I don't want to ever go to a tournament, right here. I want nothing to do with tournament neckbeards.

TOs should have an obligation to set up an enjoyable event, first and foremost.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ratbarf wrote:
Not really seeing as most tournies have time limits.

Which is why you make sure that you can win on objectives in a one-turn game. After all, it's not slow play if I'm resolving things as fast as the (broken) game rules will allow. It's not my fault GW included legal units that take a lot of time to handle.

Or you just keep taking hour-long shooting phases until your opponent ragequits. A win is a win, no matter how you earn it.

Uh....wow. If you're making things slow on purpose, it's still slow play.

I guess we can wrap that up here, Peregrine.

You obviously do not take part in competitive games.

You obviously do not want to have an enjoyable game, you want to win at all cost meaning you gladly accept having an fun-ruining game as long as you win.

You only care for yourself and you having fun, others don't matter.

I do not have any interest in discussing an issue with someone who is as single-minded as an old donkey and clearly does not want others to enjoy the game but rather compensate for...something.

You or rather your mindset disgusts me and is a shame for the entire 40k scene.

That's all, feel free to reply, won't care.

Anyway, I am glad that so many dakkanites (actually everyone else) seems to know what 40k really is about. Love you guys :-*

rigeld2 wrote:
I've done horde Nids vs horde Orks at 1850 and we finished 5 turns before 2 hours were up. It would've been pushing to do 6 turns, but we were cutting up and having fun the whole time...

My Nids vs. Green Tide at 2K was similar, but we only made it to turn 4. We had over 400 models on the board bettween the 2 of us. Might have been able to do 5 turns if it wasn't spearhead.

But we both hit the table, looked at the boxes of troops and had a good laugh.

 CT GAMER wrote:

Peregrine wrote:

A win is a win, no matter how you earn it.

No, no it isnt.

Yes, yes it is.

"Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows for none."

We'd in real life would just prefer that it wasn't.

I agree with sigvatr. It's no good saying "its not MY fault GW broke the game!" because you write the list!

If my list would mean one turns shooting would take an hour, then I'd change the fething list.

That whole thing you described would just make you look like a prime douchebag. It's purposely exploiting a loophole so you can't complete two turns of play, how can you possibly defend the position?!

 mattyrm wrote:
That whole thing you described would just make you look like a prime douchebag. It's purposely exploiting a loophole so you can't complete two turns of play, how can you possibly defend the position?!

And honestly there are a lot of lists it would loose against. My Nid list would only need 1 turn to win in every mission except Purge. Infiltrate or scout onto the objective/s and just survive for the one round of shooting.

ok folks, time to reign it in a bit. It seems we have veered off topic...way off topic.

Being a bit of a newbie I'd like to know exactly what is a "heavy quad launcher battery"? I have the IG codex (I play Necrons but have most of the codexes) but couldn't figure out from the description what was being built. I admit that I play primarily for fun right now as I'm not a walking dictionary of rules so I can't really compete with the big boys. My lists tend to be more of the "I wonder what would happen if I paired this unit with this one" sort of thing. Right now I'm maxing out my warriors at 2000 with two or three ghost arks and lots of res orbs just to see how long they can stay up

To add something to all what Peregrine . Making an army illegal durning an event after the judges both accepted the list as legal[and collected the entry fee] is an ass move . If you want to make changes like that you make it post tournament . A dude with a legal army , playing by the rules is never a cheater. Claiming that it is his foult in anyway and not the orgs or TOs . But then again I have been kicked out from an UK tournament for not having landspeeders on skimer bases , but on scenic ones , without even being asked If I could replace the speeders with ones with the skimer bases, which I could .

It's purposely exploiting a loophole so you can't complete two turns of play, how can you possibly defend the position?!

You know that is like saying that a necron scyth wing player is one too , because all non IG armies cant deal with them . You know what would happen , if the dude would try to hasten up the rolling ? his opponent would call a judge and get the IG player disqualified for breaking the shoting barrage weapons rules.

necron99 wrote:
ok folks, time to reign it in a bit. It seems we have veered off topic...way off topic.

Being a bit of a newbie I'd like to know exactly what is a "heavy quad launcher battery"? I have the IG codex (I play Necrons but have most of the codexes) but couldn't figure out from the description what was being built.

It's a Forgeworld unit that can be taken as Elites for IG.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Death-Korps-of-Krieg/IMPERIAL-QUAD-LAUNCHER-THUDD-GUN.html

Makumba wrote:

It's purposely exploiting a loophole so you can't complete two turns of play, how can you possibly defend the position?!

You know that is like saying that a necron scyth wing player is one too , because all non IG armies cant deal with them . You know what would happen , if the dude would try to hasten up the rolling ? his opponent would call a judge and get the IG player disqualified for breaking the shoting barrage weapons rules.

Really it's nothing like that. Everyone has the tools to deal with a scythewing. I can't make someone roll faster.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
His list was afterwards declared illegal and at the end of the tourney, they brought the issue up to the public and announced that any list must be playable and designed to play a game in a timely fashion. Purposely prolonging the game or making lists that will make timely finished games impossible will be banned.

And if any tournament organizer did that in an event I was a part of I would never attend any future events or (in the case of store hosts) buy anything from them again, and I would encourage everyone I know to do the same. Slow play is one thing, but it is entirely unacceptable to punish players that take the "wrong" lists as a substitute for ensuring that your events are scheduled with sufficient time for every game to finish. If a player is making decisions/rolling dice/etc at a reasonable pace* it does not magically become "slow play" just because there are a lot of dice to roll. Any judge who rules otherwise should be ashamed of their behavior and resign from the hobby.

In the case of the quad gun battery, it's a perfectly legitimate unit, and was a very effective one in 5th. It's not my fault that GW's hilariously unprofessional game designers changed the rules to make it incredibly awkward and time consuming to use it in 6th.


*And no, rolling dice one at a time is not necessarily slow play either, since there are many cases in 6th where you are required to roll dice one at a time.

I support the ruling. It should have been made before the tournament started or during, but it's a good call none-the-less. Slow playing is slow playing, no matter how you do it...

You could also stand in the way of your opponents models so it takes him forever to check LOS, measure, and move his guys, and it wouldn't have anything to do with your rolling or movement speed being slow. Wouldn't it be reasonable for the judge to make an on the spot ruling to make you get out of the way?

Edit: this is kinda off topic, delete if necessary.

The judge made the right call and told a purposeful slow player to knock it off.

As for this thread, you should all feel bad for posting in it.

Why do folks feel the need to "break" games with crazy combos? Do your friends enjoy playing against your cheese lists? Do you get certificates that boast of your "Cheese List of the Month" that you get to hang on your refrigerator to make you grandmother say how proud she is of you?

Just wondering...

Really Peregrine you have never played in a tourney because most tourney player are going to take optimized as the goal is to win and the best way to win is to table your opponent.

So in short don't be a tool.

I play an elite army with very few models trust me its more fun to play the game right.

In fact one of the most enjoyable games i played at NOVA was against Foot guard. Also Nids was very fun to play against (even if i ended up with 4 models to his 19 and still won.

Rakeeb wrote:
Yep, this is why I don't want to ever go to a tournament, right here. I want nothing to do with tournament neckbeards.

TOs should have an obligation to set up an enjoyable event, first and foremost.

Careful what you say, people like to get people whine-banned around here...

I'd stick my neck out and tell the Mod to go jump in a lake if Rakeeb was threatened to be banned for posting a level headed opinion that's already followed by official tournaments.. .....

It should have been made before the tournament started or during, but it's a good call none-the-less. Slow playing is slow playing, no matter how you do it...

dudes it wasnt slow playing . He was resolving shots the way you have to do with those kind of weapons . Yes it was giving him an adventage ,because games were not hiting turn 3] . But again this is like saying that scyth wing is illegal because armies that arent necron or IG cant deal with them under 2k pts .

That is as if someone got disqualified for being slow in the 5th for doing wound allocation tricks on his paladins .

Really it's nothing like that. Everyone has the tools to deal with a scythewing. I can't make someone roll faster.

you know that neither can he right ? because the rules clearly state how the weapons work and how wounding is rolled for them .I mean this is close to not letting people use legal units/gear in games. Is taking such batteries legal ? TO choice yes/no . It was a yes. Was the dude rolling stuff slower[constant checking of rules for identical stuff, checking range 1k times , even if technicly it is legal] the rules say he should ? no he didnt .
It is a case of TOs waking up in the middle of tournament to find out that they let someone play with an army others may not like .Thing is after you paid and they say ok , there is no spot for liking/not liking a legal list . They should have made a ruling that such lists/gear is illegal or that it is going to be limited to 0-X per slot/army . Not drop someone after round 2 , because others whine about legal game play .

Makumba wrote:

It should have been made before the tournament started or during, but it's a good call none-the-less. Slow playing is slow playing, no matter how you do it...

dudes it wasnt slow playing . He was resolving shots the way you have to do with those kind of weapons . Yes it was giving him an adventage ,because games were not hiting turn 3] . But again this is like saying that scyth wing is illegal because armies that arent necron or IG cant deal with them under 2k pts .

That is as if someone got disqualified for being slow in the 5th for doing wound allocation tricks on his paladins .

Really it's nothing like that. Everyone has the tools to deal with a scythewing. I can't make someone roll faster.

you know that neither can he right ? because the rules clearly state how the weapons work and how wounding is rolled for them .I mean this is close to not letting people use legal units/gear in games. Is taking such batteries legal ? TO choice yes/no . It was a yes. Was the dude rolling stuff slower[constant checking of rules for identical stuff, checking range 1k times , even if technicly it is legal] the rules say he should ? no he didnt .
It is a case of TOs waking up in the middle of tournament to find out that they let someone play with an army others may not like .Thing is after you paid and they say ok , there is no spot for liking/not liking a legal list . They should have made a ruling that such lists/gear is illegal or that it is going to be limited to 0-X per slot/army . Not drop someone after round 2 , because others whine about legal game play .

You've confused two different situations.
One was describing a theoretical situation resolving 12 barrage shots. I know for a fact is doesn't take "an hour for a shooting phase" because I can do 9 barrage shots in under 5 minutes. Biovores. And their blast marker is bigger.
The other was an actual tournament where the person slow played (rolling dice individually when it wasn't called for, had a list apparently designed for playing slow.

You can ask people to speed up rolling. It really doesn't take long to play a game.

bringing 8 plasma exacustioner leman russes thats only 40 plasma cannon shots

nightsorrow wrote:
bringing 8 plasma exacustioner leman russes thats only 40 plasma cannon shots

Try 2 units of 20 devgaunts. Thats 120 shots just for those two units. And only 200 points. A unit of 20 hormigaunts with Rage on the charge is 80 dice to hit and you have to reroll 1's.
I honestly think speed is one of the reasons you mainly see Nidzilla in tournies. I have a friendly play list that takes me an hour per turn and I am a fast roller and mover.

And for things that break the game you should see a TK heavy army with a lot of gates. 4 deepstrikes per turn.

I like the Dark Reaper Exarch manning the Icarus Lascannon.
BS5 with either ignore cover or a 2nd shot.
Pretty damn good.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I like the Dark Reaper Exarch manning the Icarus Lascannon.
BS5 with either ignore cover or a 2nd shot.
Pretty damn good.

-Matt

Fire Dragon exarch manning the quad gun is really nice too. Tank hunter, re-roll to wound, and ignores cover.

 Peregrine wrote:

Buttons wrote:
Step I: Take an Elysian drop troop army
Step II: Take only vets w/ demo charges as troops and fill up the rest of your points with vendettas and vultures
Step III: Lose the game automatically at the end of turn 1 because you have no models on the table.
Step IV: ???
Step V: You cry about the fact that 6th killed your expensive Elysian army and put it up on ebay.

Fixed that for you.

Implying I don't put the vets on the table at the start just to exist while my fliers shoot everything and they defend the home objectives.