CSM Roundup

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**DarkStarSabre**

Starfarer wrote:
MetalOxide wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
CrashCanuck wrote:
So long as they allow the actual Plague Marines to retain their FnP I don't really have a problem with slaanesh granting it with the icon, it does make sense for them.

Any word about possible new special characters? I'm really hoping with the focus turning to the DA that Cypher will make a re-appearance

Its just another codex shift. The old dex was two lash princes, 9 obliterators, and as many plague marines as you can fill up for troops. So naturally, Lash is gone, plague marines are no longer the bees knees and Oblits are being split into two different units.

It sucks for themed armies though such as my Nurgle army because now the icon grants fear which is apparently pointless in this edition and the Plague Marines are now 24 pts because they have poisoned which is useless; since when are you going to assault with plague marines in the first place? Also fnp is 5+ instead of 4+ :(

FNP is way better now. Sure its 5+ but nothing negates it at toughness 5. It makes units way more survivable overall. The point extra for gaining poisoned is not bad either, and fits the fluff as well.

Plus, for those despairing....

Epidemius.

Just saying. Epidemius will gift you chums with a 3+ FNP and that in itself is somewhat silly.

Dark Apostle in Terminator Unit with Typhus? With 3+ FNP due to Epidemius' magic number?

Oh my indeed.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Jayden63 wrote:
jmurph wrote:

This! People complaining about FNP need to realize that was a 4th change. One that made PMs the only viable cult choice. Now, FNP is reduced in effectiveness and switched again to a lower T unit. But if you really want the 5+, just do counts as. PMs do need to come down in price, though, as I 3 T5 Poison isn't that great. That being said, the bar set by Grey Knights and GHs seems to indicate CSM should be much cheaper all around. Cult troops shouldn't break 20 points with all the bells and whistles. After all, a GK comes standard with a power weapon, stormbolter, and fearless with squad psyker powers to be S5, have a Force weapon, etc. Charging 20 points for a fearless MEQ with a stat bump here and a special rule there still seems overpriced. Additionally, it also seems like CSM remain sub par Grey Hunters. While not having Acute Senses doesn't really matter (but it is still a perk that should be costed appropriately) the loss of ATSKNF makes CSM markedly worse to the tune of probably 2-3 points per model. Even with re-roll LD, it still comes nowhere close to autorally and should be a 2 point break.

I'm just going to call it and say there is no chance that the basic CSM is "better" than a grey hunter or that a cult unit is going to be "better" than a GK. GW will not let another IG incident occure (where a non-SM army becomes top dog). SM are their poster children. Period, full stop. A loyalist SM army of some kind will remain at the top. I do believe that CSM will be highly competitive, but anyone who thinks it will be on GK level of power is going to be a little dissapointed.

I think necrons would like a word with ya

**Jag_Calle**

Haven't seen a rumour if whether the apostle is like the BA priests, ie 1-3 for an elite slot, 1 per HQ slot, or like haemonculi, 1-3 per HQ slot...

God I hope it's 1-3... And NOT 1/HQ slot... Else, I'll need two FOCs just to run my 4x7 plaguemarine squads with FnP, as is proper..

**CthuluIsSpy**

Jag_Calle wrote:
Haven't seen a rumour if whether the apostle is like the BA priests, ie 1-3 for an elite slot, 1 per HQ slot, or like haemonculi, 1-3 per HQ slot...

God I hope it's 1-3... And NOT 1/HQ slot... Else, I'll need two FOCs just to run my 4x7 plaguemarine squads with FnP, as is proper..

He will either be like a chaplain or a BA priest, I'm guessing.

**Praxiss**

Earthbeard wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

draekus wrote:
Praxiss wrote:
From what i understand if you put a Dark Apostle with Plague marines they shoudl get their FNP back, as well as Fear, and Poisoned CC weapons - plus whatever else the Apostle gives a unit.

i'm guessing you can also challenge with the Apostle as well - so potentially buff him up through the course of the game via the Boon table.

Eep.

Wait... I must have missed something....Plague marines no longer have FNP?

I thought it was just the termi/lord etc that didn;t get it? please don;t tell me the cult unit lost it?

i might be mis-reading or jumping to conclusions. From what i have seen, FNP has jumped to the Icon of Excess/mark of Slaanesh.

Not seen any stats about the actuall cult unit themselves so i suppose they may still have it.

Didn't mean to cause a panic. Sorry/

**Mohoc**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Starfarer wrote:
MetalOxide wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
CrashCanuck wrote:
So long as they allow the actual Plague Marines to retain their FnP I don't really have a problem with slaanesh granting it with the icon, it does make sense for them.

Any word about possible new special characters? I'm really hoping with the focus turning to the DA that Cypher will make a re-appearance

Its just another codex shift. The old dex was two lash princes, 9 obliterators, and as many plague marines as you can fill up for troops. So naturally, Lash is gone, plague marines are no longer the bees knees and Oblits are being split into two different units.

It sucks for themed armies though such as my Nurgle army because now the icon grants fear which is apparently pointless in this edition and the Plague Marines are now 24 pts because they have poisoned which is useless; since when are you going to assault with plague marines in the first place? Also fnp is 5+ instead of 4+ :(

FNP is way better now. Sure its 5+ but nothing negates it at toughness 5. It makes units way more survivable overall. The point extra for gaining poisoned is not bad either, and fits the fluff as well.

Plus, for those despairing....

Epidemius.

Just saying. Epidemius will gift you chums with a 3+ FNP and that in itself is somewhat silly.

Dark Apostle in Terminator Unit with Typhus? With 3+ FNP due to Epidemius' magic number?

Oh my indeed.

Epi only improves existing FNP. He does not give it. In addition, his poison buff only works on Plague Swords.

**Jag_Calle**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Jag_Calle wrote:
Haven't seen a rumour if whether the apostle is like the BA priests, ie 1-3 for an elite slot, 1 per HQ slot, or like haemonculi, 1-3 per HQ slot...

God I hope it's 1-3... And NOT 1/HQ slot... Else, I'll need two FOCs just to run my 4x7 plaguemarine squads with FnP, as is proper..

He will either be like a chaplain or a BA priest, I'm guessing.

Yeah... That's 2 of the three ways I mentioned...

Epi will make things right if we can take multiple apostles... As the apostles give FnP, which he improves... Here's hoping plaguemarines get plagueswords, so the poisoned CC, is improved aswell...

**Sephyr**

So far we don't know that plague Marines lost their FNP. There are still plenty of gaps to be filled. They could just have it naturally instead of though icons and marks. Or have it when led by a Nurgle Dark Apostle.

Other stuff that is really eating at me with curiosity:

-Chosen. What do they get now?

-Possessed. Did underdog of the last codex bounce back at last?

-And pretty much all special characters, most notably Lucius (so much potential now with challenges in the game!) and Kharn.

**AlmightyWalrus**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
jmurph wrote:

This! People complaining about FNP need to realize that was a 4th change. One that made PMs the only viable cult choice. Now, FNP is reduced in effectiveness and switched again to a lower T unit. But if you really want the 5+, just do counts as. PMs do need to come down in price, though, as I 3 T5 Poison isn't that great. That being said, the bar set by Grey Knights and GHs seems to indicate CSM should be much cheaper all around. Cult troops shouldn't break 20 points with all the bells and whistles. After all, a GK comes standard with a power weapon, stormbolter, and fearless with squad psyker powers to be S5, have a Force weapon, etc. Charging 20 points for a fearless MEQ with a stat bump here and a special rule there still seems overpriced. Additionally, it also seems like CSM remain sub par Grey Hunters. While not having Acute Senses doesn't really matter (but it is still a perk that should be costed appropriately) the loss of ATSKNF makes CSM markedly worse to the tune of probably 2-3 points per model. Even with re-roll LD, it still comes nowhere close to autorally and should be a 2 point break.

I'm just going to call it and say there is no chance that the basic CSM is "better" than a grey hunter or that a cult unit is going to be "better" than a GK. GW will not let another IG incident occure (where a non-SM army becomes top dog). SM are their poster children. Period, full stop. A loyalist SM army of some kind will remain at the top. I do believe that CSM will be highly competitive, but anyone who thinks it will be on GK level of power is going to be a little dissapointed.

I think necrons would like a word with ya

As would Eldar, the current CSM Codex when it was young, and Orks.

**kelewan**

dont know if anyone has noticed but thousand sons, ahriman and the noise marines have disappeared from the website new models possibly?

**jmurph**

According to the price list on page 1, Ahriman is apparently going FC and TS and NM are now upgrade kits.

**Rivet**

Lucius and Kharne are gone also, likely for the same reason.

**His Master's Voice**

Sephyr wrote:

-Possessed. Did underdog of the last codex bounce back at last?

The Vessels of Chaos table looks like it might be what Possessed roll on. If that's the case, it's a good sign as all results promote direct close combat results, unlike the current table.

**DarkStarSabre**

Mohoc wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Starfarer wrote:
MetalOxide wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
CrashCanuck wrote:
So long as they allow the actual Plague Marines to retain their FnP I don't really have a problem with slaanesh granting it with the icon, it does make sense for them.

Any word about possible new special characters? I'm really hoping with the focus turning to the DA that Cypher will make a re-appearance

Its just another codex shift. The old dex was two lash princes, 9 obliterators, and as many plague marines as you can fill up for troops. So naturally, Lash is gone, plague marines are no longer the bees knees and Oblits are being split into two different units.

It sucks for themed armies though such as my Nurgle army because now the icon grants fear which is apparently pointless in this edition and the Plague Marines are now 24 pts because they have poisoned which is useless; since when are you going to assault with plague marines in the first place? Also fnp is 5+ instead of 4+ :(

FNP is way better now. Sure its 5+ but nothing negates it at toughness 5. It makes units way more survivable overall. The point extra for gaining poisoned is not bad either, and fits the fluff as well.

Plus, for those despairing....

Epidemius.

Just saying. Epidemius will gift you chums with a 3+ FNP and that in itself is somewhat silly.

Dark Apostle in Terminator Unit with Typhus? With 3+ FNP due to Epidemius' magic number?

Oh my indeed.

Epi only improves existing FNP. He does not give it. In addition, his poison buff only works on Plague Swords.

Aaaaaand if the Dark Apostle is giving the Terminators FNP.....then I guess he improves that too, yes?

And the magic number of 20 turns anything with bolter fire into a monster. Armour ignoring indeed.

**reiner**

I'm glad that noise marines are going upgrade kit. Want to see the loadout though. The hybrid plastic/metal kit was dissapointing (8 marines, 2 blasters, 1 siren, 1 blastmaster and power sword with some extra heads) were kind of lame. The metal upgrade kit was the only feasible way of getting more weapons.

**Sigmundr**

Based on the tiny picture linked of the upgrade kits, it's the current metal kit redone in finecast.

**DarkStarSabre**

Sigmundr wrote:
Based on the tiny picture linked of the upgrade kits, it's the current metal kit redone in finecast.

Yep. This.

They've basically taken all the current metal upgrade kits - so Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and made them Finecast.

The only one that seems to have been missed is the Death Guard Havocs....

**Gravity**

Thousand Sons etc. get upgrade packs in finecast containing 10x helmet, shoulder pats etc.

**schadenfreude**

Upgrade kits sound like a better idea to me than a box of regular csm with the upgrade parts in the box.

**Starfarer**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Starfarer wrote:

FNP is way better now. Sure its 5+ but nothing negates it at toughness 5. It makes units way more survivable overall. The point extra for gaining poisoned is not bad either, and fits the fluff as well.

Plus, for those despairing....

Epidemius.

Just saying. Epidemius will gift you chums with a 3+ FNP and that in itself is somewhat silly.

Dark Apostle in Terminator Unit with Typhus? With 3+ FNP due to Epidemius' magic number?

Oh my indeed.

If I were a tournament player I would probably take Epidemus as an ally. It's a bit overpowered for the friendly games I usually play with friends. I'd no doubt take him in Apocalypse games just to watch the craziness.

A terminators Dark Apostle would be a good way to get FNP Terminators though. I will probably go that route when I field terminators.

His Master's Voice wrote:
Sephyr wrote:

-Possessed. Did underdog of the last codex bounce back at last?

The Vessels of Chaos table looks like it might be what Possessed roll on. If that's the case, it's a good sign as all results promote direct close combat results, unlike the current table.

Someone else speculated they may get the 2+ fleshmetal armor. If they have the Daemon special rule giving them Mark of Tzeentch would be nasty.

**aka_mythos**

Sephyr wrote:

-Chosen. What do they get now?

They're suppose to have "veterans of the long war" giving them hatred (space marines)... But other units are rumored to have it to.

**Buttons**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Jayden63 wrote:
jmurph wrote:

This! People complaining about FNP need to realize that was a 4th change. One that made PMs the only viable cult choice. Now, FNP is reduced in effectiveness and switched again to a lower T unit. But if you really want the 5+, just do counts as. PMs do need to come down in price, though, as I 3 T5 Poison isn't that great. That being said, the bar set by Grey Knights and GHs seems to indicate CSM should be much cheaper all around. Cult troops shouldn't break 20 points with all the bells and whistles. After all, a GK comes standard with a power weapon, stormbolter, and fearless with squad psyker powers to be S5, have a Force weapon, etc. Charging 20 points for a fearless MEQ with a stat bump here and a special rule there still seems overpriced. Additionally, it also seems like CSM remain sub par Grey Hunters. While not having Acute Senses doesn't really matter (but it is still a perk that should be costed appropriately) the loss of ATSKNF makes CSM markedly worse to the tune of probably 2-3 points per model. Even with re-roll LD, it still comes nowhere close to autorally and should be a 2 point break.

I'm just going to call it and say there is no chance that the basic CSM is "better" than a grey hunter or that a cult unit is going to be "better" than a GK. GW will not let another IG incident occure (where a non-SM army becomes top dog). SM are their poster children. Period, full stop. A loyalist SM army of some kind will remain at the top. I do believe that CSM will be highly competitive, but anyone who thinks it will be on GK level of power is going to be a little dissapointed.

I think necrons would like a word with ya

IG are still way above vanilla marines and the different flavours, in large part because they actually have flyers already (with 3 twin-linked lascannons and AV 12 no less) and anti-flyer weapons. Marines never really were top dogs, only the space wolves were a real challenge, and as long as you have a good bit of melta and plasma draigowing was never hard to beat.

**tsunomat**

Rivet wrote:
Lucius and Kharne are gone also, likely for the same reason.

I was hopeful at first, and then it was confirmed that they will not be getting new sculpts.

Shame...

**Sephyr**

aka_mythos wrote:
Sephyr wrote:

-Chosen. What do they get now?

They're suppose to have "veterans of the long war" giving them hatred (space marines)... But other units are rumored to have it to.

So 9 points over a baseline marine for Hatred and better gear options? Sounds a bit bare. I'd expect one more rule or unit trait for the concept to make sense.

**Minx**

tsunomat wrote:
Rivet wrote:
Lucius and Kharne are gone also, likely for the same reason.

I was hopeful at first, and then it was confirmed that they will not be getting new sculpts.

Shame...

It's unlikely that they get a new sculpt now. They might get an update later though, as they try to release all new units first.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sephyr wrote:
So 9 points over a baseline marine for Hatred and better gear options? Sounds a bit bare. I'd expect one more rule or unit trait for the concept to make sense.

There were at least two more lines in the rules section that were hard to read (or even unreadable) iirc.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Minx wrote:
tsunomat wrote:
Rivet wrote:
Lucius and Kharne are gone also, likely for the same reason.

I was hopeful at first, and then it was confirmed that they will not be getting new sculpts.

Shame...

It's unlikely that they get a new sculpt now. They might get an update later though, as they try to release all new units first.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sephyr wrote:
So 9 points over a baseline marine for Hatred and better gear options? Sounds a bit bare. I'd expect one more rule or unit trait for the concept to make sense.

There were at least two more lines in the rules section that were hard to read (or even unreadable) iirc.

+1 leadership as well.
So HQ choices and Chosen will most likely have that ability.

**Nagashek**

Am I the only one who thinks Demonic Engine sounds like a fun rule? I mean, I hate random rolling except for those armies that it makes sense for (chaos, orks, skaven) but this seems like a good one. Its an upgrade that has a downside that has an upside. It eats your friggin' guys and heals itself! Now that's fun! I dunno about anything else, that particular rule just caught my eye. Its usefullness now comes down to its cost. Too much and you'll never take it, too cheap and its overpowered even with the downside. If its in that sweetspot, I think I'd take it for its flavorfulness, much like I would take a Commisar for IG because "Summary Execution" is a flavorful and fun rule.

**avedominusnox**

Dreadnought also gone from elites.
Btw I m checking for iBooks to inform you for the digital WD as soon as it is released so we can discuss the price.

**kronk**

Nagashek wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Demonic Engine sounds like a fun rule?

I love it.

If you deploy embarked in such a vehicle at the start of a game or come in from reserves embarked, do you still make the roll? Or is it only if you hop in during the course of the game (after initial deployment).

**Platuan4th**

morgendonner wrote:

Anyway I don't think $50 is thaaaat ridiculous for an all color hardback book.

For the amount of pages, $50 is stupid ridiculous. Most RPG books are full color and twice the size for usually $15 less.