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"it will not die" rule supposidly gives you a chance to roll and gain back a lost Hull point.

 Crimson wrote:
Any idea what Khorne Berserkers do? Any word on the axes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratliker wrote:
Fiend is just AV12? weak.
How many Hull points? it couldn't be 3 as some say, that thing is way beefier than a dreadnought!

Fiends have three hull points. At least Maulerfiend has 'It Will Not Die' special rule. I have no idea what it is, but I hope it does what it says.

It will not Die! is a special rule in the main rulebook. At the end of friendly turns, roll a D6 for every model that has lost hulpoints, but not been wrecked/destroyed. on a 5+ you gain a hullpoint back. Between that and the 5++ it gets from the Daemon rule, hopefully it can manage to stay alive.

Does anyone know if there are any AA weapons besides just the Heldrake? Don't really fells like dishing out 75$ to get the only AA unit.

You can always get the fortifications for AA. Easy to convert them to Chaos.

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Furious Charge, Rage, Counter Charge, AP4.

So the chainaxes give AP4? They don't strike last like power axes, I hope.

Nope, just AP4, that's it.

 Nicorex wrote:
"it will not die" rule supposidly gives you a chance to roll and gain back a lost Hull point.

Not supposedly, it's in the BRB.

ravenousork25 wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any AA weapons besides just the Heldrake? Don't really fells like dishing out 75$ to get the only AA unit.

Havoks can get Flakk Missiles, the problem is, some rumours have said Flakk Missiles replace Frags and Kraks.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

AV12 isn't weak by any means; even S8 weapons need to tip the odds to break it on average. It has 3HP. How big it is has no reflection on how many HP it has or what its armour should be. A Dread is covered in armour whereas the Fiends seem to have a lot more fleshy areas. Note they both have a 5+ invul, and It Will Not Die as well.

Yes it does small things have 2HP, medium have 3HP and big ones like LR have 4. The connection is s clear as it could get.
And AV 12 is for decent vehicle, as it goes down easysly to anti-armour fire.
I mean, Defiler is AV12 4Hp! how on earth they made Fiend thrice as big but AV123HP?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Nope, just AP4, that's it.

Well that's good, but if this is the only thing they get over marked and icon carrying regular CSM, I can't see Berserkers being used much unless they're really cheap, considering that AP 4 is utterly wasted against marine opponents.

Do they too have the charge reroll that the icon gives?

 Ratliker wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

AV12 isn't weak by any means; even S8 weapons need to tip the odds to break it on average. It has 3HP. How big it is has no reflection on how many HP it has or what its armour should be. A Dread is covered in armour whereas the Fiends seem to have a lot more fleshy areas. Note they both have a 5+ invul, and It Will Not Die as well.

Yes it does small things have 2HP, medium have 3HP and big ones like LR have 4. The connection is s clear as it could get.
And AV 12 is for decent vehicle, as it goes down easysly to anti-armour fire.
I mean, Defiler is AV12 4Hp! how on earth they made Fiend thrice as big but AV123HP?

The Fiend is not three times bigger than the Defiler. In fact, it appears to be slightly smaller.

And it has special rules to help out as well.

 d-usa wrote:
And it has special rules to help out as well.

Won't the Defiler get IWND and the 5+ invul as well? It is a demon engine, iirc.

ah I see that dr. delorean beat me to it. Page 140 of WD says that taking a lord with nurgle will allow you to field PM as troops. Very interested to see what Typhus's plague zombies will be like

 Ratliker wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

AV12 isn't weak by any means; even S8 weapons need to tip the odds to break it on average. It has 3HP. How big it is has no reflection on how many HP it has or what its armour should be. A Dread is covered in armour whereas the Fiends seem to have a lot more fleshy areas. Note they both have a 5+ invul, and It Will Not Die as well.

Yes it does small things have 2HP, medium have 3HP and big ones like LR have 4. The connection is s clear as it could get.
And AV 12 is for decent vehicle, as it goes down easysly to anti-armour fire.
I mean, Defiler is AV12 4Hp! how on earth they made Fiend thrice as big but AV123HP?

The connection isn't clear, it just happens that most big stuff has a lot of armour on it. Stormtalon is as big as a Rhino but has less HP than it for it, so the precedent was there. Another good example is the Spartan tank, which is the same size as a Land Raider but has 5HP. People just made assumptions it was about size. And BTW, the Fiends are both smaller than a Defiler.

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Nope, just AP4, that's it.

Well that's good, but if this is the only thing they get over marked and icon carrying regular CSM, I can't see Berserkers being used much unless they're really cheap, considering that AP 4 is utterly wasted against marine opponents.

Do they too have the charge reroll that the icon gives?

Not sure about the re-roll but I know Berserkers are 2pts cheaper than they used to be.

 Robbietobbie wrote:
ah I see that dr. delorean beat me to it. Page 140 of WD says that taking a lord with nurgle will allow you to field PM as troops. Very interested to see what Typhus's plague zombies will be like

What I heard is the Zombies have 5+ poison and FNP, but for no extra cost. A rather potent army potentially, led by a hard-as-nails, relatively cheaper Lvl2 Psyker.

 Crimson wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 BDJV wrote:

 VermGho5t wrote:
Has anyone heard or read the rules for vanilla csm troops?

These are the latest rumors that were posted.

Chaos Space Marine
70 for 5, 14 for each additional marine.
Aspiring Champion is a 10 point upgrade.
Come with bolter/bp/ccw
For every 5 models in the squad you get a special weapon. If the squad is 10 or more, one model can exchange a flamer(5 pts) for a Heavy Bolter, meltagun(10 points) for an Autocannon or Missile Launcher or a plasmagun(15 points) for a Lascannon.
Marks range from 10-50 points, Icons range from 10-40 points.

That's not terrible, but the loss of 1 LD point wasn't worth only losing 1 point for a model. If Chaos Marines end up being 13 points I'd be a lot happier, or if it was 70 for Aspiring Champion+4 other Marines and then add 15 additional for 13 points per.

However, if Cultists are still 40 for the initial Champion+9 cultists, and then add 20 more for 3 points per cultist (as rumored), I seriously doubt that I'm even going to be using very many Chaos Marines at all!

Do you realise that loyalist marines are 16 points per dude and do not have CCW for an extra attack? 14 for a Chaos Marine is insanely cheap.

They also have combat tactics, ATSKNF, and get free stuff at 10 men. Oh and they can combat squad. That's worth way more than 2 points.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 BDJV wrote:

 VermGho5t wrote:
Has anyone heard or read the rules for vanilla csm troops?

These are the latest rumors that were posted.

Chaos Space Marine
70 for 5, 14 for each additional marine.
Aspiring Champion is a 10 point upgrade.
Come with bolter/bp/ccw
For every 5 models in the squad you get a special weapon. If the squad is 10 or more, one model can exchange a flamer(5 pts) for a Heavy Bolter, meltagun(10 points) for an Autocannon or Missile Launcher or a plasmagun(15 points) for a Lascannon.
Marks range from 10-50 points, Icons range from 10-40 points.

That's not terrible, but the loss of 1 LD point wasn't worth only losing 1 point for a model. If Chaos Marines end up being 13 points I'd be a lot happier, or if it was 70 for Aspiring Champion+4 other Marines and then add 15 additional for 13 points per.

However, if Cultists are still 40 for the initial Champion+9 cultists, and then add 20 more for 3 points per cultist (as rumored), I seriously doubt that I'm even going to be using very many Chaos Marines at all!

Do you realise that loyalist marines are 16 points per dude and do not have CCW for an extra attack? 14 for a Chaos Marine is insanely cheap.

They also have combat tactics, ATSKNF, and get free stuff at 10 men. Oh and they can combat squad. That's worth way more than 2 points.

Thing is most of that stuff is situational. Those 10 Chaos Marines will match those 10 loyalist Marines in a firefight where those special rules won't come into play, and they will be cheaper.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 BDJV wrote:

 VermGho5t wrote:
Has anyone heard or read the rules for vanilla csm troops?

These are the latest rumors that were posted.

Chaos Space Marine
70 for 5, 14 for each additional marine.
Aspiring Champion is a 10 point upgrade.
Come with bolter/bp/ccw
For every 5 models in the squad you get a special weapon. If the squad is 10 or more, one model can exchange a flamer(5 pts) for a Heavy Bolter, meltagun(10 points) for an Autocannon or Missile Launcher or a plasmagun(15 points) for a Lascannon.
Marks range from 10-50 points, Icons range from 10-40 points.

That's not terrible, but the loss of 1 LD point wasn't worth only losing 1 point for a model. If Chaos Marines end up being 13 points I'd be a lot happier, or if it was 70 for Aspiring Champion+4 other Marines and then add 15 additional for 13 points per.

However, if Cultists are still 40 for the initial Champion+9 cultists, and then add 20 more for 3 points per cultist (as rumored), I seriously doubt that I'm even going to be using very many Chaos Marines at all!

Do you realise that loyalist marines are 16 points per dude and do not have CCW for an extra attack? 14 for a Chaos Marine is insanely cheap.

They also have combat tactics, ATSKNF, and get free stuff at 10 men. Oh and they can combat squad. That's worth way more than 2 points.

ATSKNF, Chaos Marines are LD9 basic, free stuff isn't too major and Combat Squads aren't that good.

Both units are evenly matched.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


They also have combat tactics, ATSKNF, and get free stuff at 10 men. Oh and they can combat squad. That's worth way more than 2 points.

Thing is most of that stuff is situational. Those 10 Chaos Marines will match those 10 loyalist Marines in a firefight where those special rules won't come into play, and they will be cheaper.

Regular CSM are garbage even with the BP&CCW. No one fielded them in 5th and no one will field them in the new dex. Loyalist marines are much more useful with combat tactics ad ATSKNF. They never run away. CSM are easy to route and can't regroup so are much worse objective sitters. Chaos has plenty of better options than regular CSM who will sit on the shelf collecting dust for another edition. They haven't been useful since you could field them as veterans with veteran traits and weapon options.

Kevlar wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


They also have combat tactics, ATSKNF, and get free stuff at 10 men. Oh and they can combat squad. That's worth way more than 2 points.

Thing is most of that stuff is situational. Those 10 Chaos Marines will match those 10 loyalist Marines in a firefight where those special rules won't come into play, and they will be cheaper.

Regular CSM are garbage even with the BP&CCW. No one fielded them in 5th and no one will field them in the new dex. Loyalist marines are much more useful with combat tactics ad ATSKNF. They never run away. CSM are easy to route and can't regroup so are much worse objective sitters. Chaos has plenty of better options than regular CSM who will sit on the shelf collecting dust for another edition. They haven't been useful since you could field them as veterans with veteran traits and weapon options.

"No one fielded them in 5th."




I used them, and a five man squad with two plasma guns could wreck havoc, or a ten man squad with mark of slannesh, two flamers and a rhino could devastate...etc....

Your claim is invalid.

"Easy to route."

LD9.

Do we know whether cultists can have marks and/or icons?

 blood reaper wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 BDJV wrote:

 VermGho5t wrote:
Has anyone heard or read the rules for vanilla csm troops?

These are the latest rumors that were posted.

Chaos Space Marine
70 for 5, 14 for each additional marine.
Aspiring Champion is a 10 point upgrade.
Come with bolter/bp/ccw
For every 5 models in the squad you get a special weapon. If the squad is 10 or more, one model can exchange a flamer(5 pts) for a Heavy Bolter, meltagun(10 points) for an Autocannon or Missile Launcher or a plasmagun(15 points) for a Lascannon.
Marks range from 10-50 points, Icons range from 10-40 points.

That's not terrible, but the loss of 1 LD point wasn't worth only losing 1 point for a model. If Chaos Marines end up being 13 points I'd be a lot happier, or if it was 70 for Aspiring Champion+4 other Marines and then add 15 additional for 13 points per.

However, if Cultists are still 40 for the initial Champion+9 cultists, and then add 20 more for 3 points per cultist (as rumored), I seriously doubt that I'm even going to be using very many Chaos Marines at all!

Do you realise that loyalist marines are 16 points per dude and do not have CCW for an extra attack? 14 for a Chaos Marine is insanely cheap.

They also have combat tactics, ATSKNF, and get free stuff at 10 men. Oh and they can combat squad. That's worth way more than 2 points.

ATSKNF, Chaos Marines are LD9 basic, free stuff isn't too major and Combat Squads aren't that good.

Both units are evenly matched.

Chaos Marines are LD8 now. Also I read somewhere that they lost their BP+CCW, I'd like someone to confirm that though since I read it on Warseer.

 blood reaper wrote:

I used them, and a five man squad with two plasma guns could wreck havoc.

I'm sure it could, if it was a legal option. How often did you field that combo in 5th edition?

Kevlar wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

I used them, and a five man squad with two plasma guns could wreck havoc.

I'm sure it could, if it was a legal option. How often did you field that combo in 5th edition?

Sorry, it should have been Champion with combi Plasma as well.

Or Champion with both Plasma Pistol, Combi-Plasma and a single Plasma Gun.

I also often used CSM's. Forked out the banner of nurgle, a champ and gave them a cheap lord as a bit more hitting power and they were fairly durable indeed. Good little objective holders whilst the cult troops went round and did the necessary killing.

Man with these new costs the vanilla CSM are going to be very useful.
I used them in previous dex.a and I will use them now.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also I read somewhere that they lost their BP+CCW

I really really doubt that. It's one thing for GW to invalidate units, but I doubt they'd invalidate part of a sprue.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 BDJV wrote:

 VermGho5t wrote:
Has anyone heard or read the rules for vanilla csm troops?

These are the latest rumors that were posted.

Chaos Space Marine
70 for 5, 14 for each additional marine.
Aspiring Champion is a 10 point upgrade.
Come with bolter/bp/ccw
For every 5 models in the squad you get a special weapon. If the squad is 10 or more, one model can exchange a flamer(5 pts) for a Heavy Bolter, meltagun(10 points) for an Autocannon or Missile Launcher or a plasmagun(15 points) for a Lascannon.
Marks range from 10-50 points, Icons range from 10-40 points.

That's not terrible, but the loss of 1 LD point wasn't worth only losing 1 point for a model. If Chaos Marines end up being 13 points I'd be a lot happier, or if it was 70 for Aspiring Champion+4 other Marines and then add 15 additional for 13 points per.

However, if Cultists are still 40 for the initial Champion+9 cultists, and then add 20 more for 3 points per cultist (as rumored), I seriously doubt that I'm even going to be using very many Chaos Marines at all!

Do you realise that loyalist marines are 16 points per dude and do not have CCW for an extra attack? 14 for a Chaos Marine is insanely cheap.

They also have combat tactics, ATSKNF, and get free stuff at 10 men. Oh and they can combat squad. That's worth way more than 2 points.

ATSKNF, Chaos Marines are LD9 basic, free stuff isn't too major and Combat Squads aren't that good.

Both units are evenly matched.

Chaos Marines are LD8 now. Also I read somewhere that they lost their BP+CCW, I'd like someone to confirm that though since I read it on Warseer.

Was wondering the same thing since on pages 62 and 63 of the WD in the description of the 20 squad of CSM he seems to list both extra CCW and Veterans of the Long War as upgrades to the unit.

Veterans of the Long War is +1 to Leadership

 Verd_Warr wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Chaos Marines are LD8 now. Also I read somewhere that they lost their BP+CCW, I'd like someone to confirm that though since I read it on Warseer.

Was wondering the same thing since on pages 62 and 63 of the WD in the description of the 20 squad of CSM he seems to list both extra CCW and Veterans of the Long War as upgrades to the unit.

Interesting...would anyone mind just posting the army lists from the WD? I have no access to it given that my not-so LGS is about an hour away. Alternatively, if you could PM me a scan of the page that'd be great.

And yeah, Veterans of the Long War is +1 LD and Hatred for Space Marines, which is pretty nifty considering my main opponents all use Marines! haha

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Verd_Warr wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Chaos Marines are LD8 now. Also I read somewhere that they lost their BP+CCW, I'd like someone to confirm that though since I read it on Warseer.

Was wondering the same thing since on pages 62 and 63 of the WD in the description of the 20 squad of CSM he seems to list both extra CCW and Veterans of the Long War as upgrades to the unit.

Interesting...would anyone mind just posting the army lists from the WD? I have no access to it given that my not-so LGS is about an hour away. Alternatively, if you could PM me a scan of the page that'd be great.

And yeah, Veterans of the Long War is +1 LD and Hatred for Space Marines, which is pretty nifty considering my main opponents all use Marines! haha

Wait, would that mean the removal of Bolters so you could have a Bolt Pistol and CCW?

I'd be fine to upgrade so I could have both, but other wise that's a pain in the ass, as most of my models are converted to have a Bolter in one hand and a Chainsword in the other.

The Icon of vengeance also give fearless. I have to agree though, with the cost of the aspiring champion included into the squad, they don't feel all that inexpensive or exciting anymore. You can only ever have one dude in every squad with a heavy weapon too unlocked at 10 men. I was hoping this would prove an alternative to having a cultist objective camped in the back, with a 2x autocannon in 10 men or 5 men and one autocannon behind a defense line, but they seem to want to make CSM composition hold very close to codex marine ones.

I guess it comes down to how expensive these marks end up being. Might still be very worth taking with a lord making a bunch of them fearless or other cost shared buffs from marks or icons. 20 men with 4 plasma guns and counter attack from an icon and fearless from a lord might be pretty cute. The cost of the buffs go down the more CSM are benefitting and the weight of those extra attacks really start being felt.

I'm still considering unupgraded noise marines. I hope they are still fearless, that would rule. Just a power weapon on the champion and maybe an icon or something between them. Cheap, fearless, initiative 5 marines with 2 attacks and an AP3 flamer template. Add metal box for added cruelty and blocking.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Not sure how I feel about salvo on sonic blasters. I really liked their versatility in the old dex, they were good at a pinch in cc [wiped out a few marine squads before actually getting into assault a few times in my day ] They also provided highly mobile [if in a rhino] mid-range fire support.

Salvo effectively ends NMs as an assault unit. It also restricts their mobility, and will probably only see use as objective campers or immobile mid-range fire support. They will be really good at both of these roles though, especially with ignore cover, and if you add in a doom siren they will get to put out a lot of overwatch shots.

Not sure where I'm going to get my assault troops from as there's no way I'm taking any Khorne in my Slaanesh army. Pretty much forces me to take Slaaneshy Daemon allies. Maybe that's what they wanted...

This is exactly how I used to run my army. I had 5 troop choices. Two were damonettes, two were HTH noise marines with no sonic weapons, one was a shooty noise marine squad (all with sonic weapons). Then there was a 4 blastmaster havok squad, and more sonic weapons on my biker squad.

The combination of dedicated shooty to soften stuff up and then go in with a hard hitting high initative unit removed many threats without loosing too much in return. As for the damonettes, I'm really hoping there is some sort of summoning icon that makes for daemon allies that are reliable.