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AustonT wrote: You shouldn't be surprised about Tasers. Tasers simply make it easier to reach for a push button response instead of actually accessing and resolving a majority of situations. Thier use has drawn a lot of criticism from older cops, not the back to the revolver types; just guys who think policing is more than force.
People also remember a bone crushing beating as a deterrent a hell of a lot longer than being tased or maced. Trust me.
Getting OC sprayed fething sucks. I'd call it a decent deterrent. No idea how it compares to getting tased, but I'm not signing up for the test.
I've been on the receiving end of both, neither is particularly pleasant but I'd still charge a guy with mace, especially if he was within 6M. I'd give it a go with a Taser too if I thought he would miss. It's more cost/benefit. If I thought I could deliver a come to Jesus beating on the person attempting to mace or tase me its a no brainer. YMMV and it's not like I try to put myself in a position where it would matter but I'm saying broken bones and hemmoraging> OC and tasing.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Seaward wrote:
Getting OC sprayed fething sucks. I'd call it a decent deterrent. No idea how it compares to getting tased, but I'm not signing up for the test.
I'm all for non or less-lethal police equipment. I'm immune to CS gas so it's all gravy to me
In all seriousness though, I think arming the police with guns here in the UK would end up with more dead people and ultimately, more dead police. To a certain extent, we have seen what has happened in the US when the Pandora's Box of weapon ownership is opened and while it is still just about shut here in the UK, I think we should try to keep it that way.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
One of Britain's top police officers today warned against a rush to routinely arm officers following the killing of two constables in Greater Manchester.
Fiona Bone, 32, and Nicola Hughes, 23, were sent to investigate a reported burglary yesterday when they were attacked with a gun and a grenade.
Suspect Dale Cregan, 29, was arrested in June in connection with the murder of Mark Short but was released on bail pending further inquiries.
The president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, Sir Hugh Orde, said today: "Guns don't necessarily solve the problem.
"You only have to look at the American experience. Many colleagues in America are lost without even drawing their gun at close ranges."
Mr Orde said it was the "clear view of the British police service from top to bottom" that officers prefer to be unarmed because the public dislike approaching constables bearing weapons.
He said minimum use of force and intervention was the "bedrock" of Britain's policing model.
He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme policing is "a risk business", adding: "As we speak, officers will be responding to calls not knowing what they will get to and not knowing exactly what they will be dealing with when they arrive.
"It's just a harsh fact of policing and, tragically on occasions, things go horribly wrong."
They are armed with tazers, more than enough in most cases.
One of them even drew their tazer but no shot was fired.
Probably because it was a ambush. The guy is evidently derranged but the real people I have beef with are the ones who support him as a hero on facebook and the ones that harboured him before he gave himself up.
AustonT wrote: I've been on the receiving end of both, neither is particularly pleasant but I'd still charge a guy with mace, especially if he was within 6M. I'd give it a go with a Taser too if I thought he would miss. It's more cost/benefit. If I thought I could deliver a come to Jesus beating on the person attempting to mace or tase me its a no brainer. YMMV and it's not like I try to put myself in a position where it would matter but I'm saying broken bones and hemmoraging> OC and tasing.
Yeah, I dunno. It's entirely possible you're tougher than me - and I handled OC spray about as well as an eight year-old girl, so I'm betting you are - but I'd take getting punched in the face a few times over reliving that experience.
In a word no, even the police themselves don't want to carry firearms. At the end of the day there is no need for it given the very low number of firearms in this country anyway.
On a more practical point I work were the Hampshire police do a lot of their firearms training and I would feel a lot safer if they weren't armed.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Leave it up the individual officer if he wants to carry or not. If so then train to standard. HEAVILY trained him/her
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Maxstreel wrote: Regulation of guns has shown over and over again that criminals will still be the only ones having them if regular citizens can't. Just look at Australia and Canada and the millions of dollars they've spent on getting weapons out of the hands of their citizens. Now they have unarmed citizens and still-armed criminals.
But that's kind of the point. Unarmed = citizen. Armed = criminal. It creates a nice distinction between the criminals and the innocent.
The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus
Seaward wrote:
Getting OC sprayed fething sucks. I'd call it a decent deterrent. No idea how it compares to getting tased, but I'm not signing up for the test.
I'm all for non or less-lethal police equipment. I'm immune to CS gas so it's all gravy to me
In all seriousness though, I think arming the police with guns here in the UK would end up with more dead people and ultimately, more dead police. To a certain extent, we have seen what has happened in the US when the Pandora's Box of weapon ownership is opened and while it is still just about shut here in the UK, I think we should try to keep it that way.
Except the US has never been unarmed. The british public hasn't really ever been armed.
You can't say we would have less crime if the public didn't have guns because our criminals already have weapons.
The situation is stable as it will ever be with the population having access to firearms. Nobody is going to need .50cals, but semi-automatic and limited automatics are perfectly fine.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
If bobbies need to have guns or not is a fair question, but it isn't one to be answered by a single high profile incident like this. You need to look at hundreds of incidents over a decade or more to come up with a decent answer.
To me, the better question to ask in this case is why a guy suspected in two murders was allowed out on bail?
There's a hell of a lot more to effective policing that having a gun on your hip.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
I don't think all of our coppers should have guns but I DO think that our armed response should be expanded to include armed patrols of problem areas, such parts of inner-city London and certain Manchester estates. I believe that this idea was piloted for a while - not sure what happened with it.
Arming coppers could potentially encite those members of society who believe that 'da man' is the cause of all their ills to even greater extremes of anti police action.
I could imagine individuals or gangs seeing armed coppers as a proper target of their ill conceived philosophies. There are segments of society who see the police as fair game and rights of passage include antagonising the police or getting involved with criminal activity.
The police need our respect and they have to earn it.
No need for more armed police say I, the stats don't really support it and personally any Rozzers that pulled thee gun out will almost certainly be on a hiding to nothing as they will almost certainly be crushed to death by paperwork and he ensuing media gak storm that would follow.
Some figures from the BBC site for 2010-2011;
Firearms have been authorised in 17,209 operations in England and Wales, down 7%
There are 6653 authorised firearms trained officers.
There were 3 incidents where police discharged their firearms.
They also have a little bit on the US perspective. Ma colonel from Baton Rogue states;
The criminal element here is better armed than the police departments most of the time.....the general public because of television believe we're better armed than we really are. We respond to a call and they say "where's you machinegun?"
I'll stick to the established way the peelers here already do things. Freak incidents aside we clearly dont need more guns here.
I would hang the fether that did it though.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
A 2006 survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty, despite almost half saying their lives had been "in serious jeopardy" during the previous three years.
It is a position shared by the Police Superintendents' Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers.
The British public are not nearly so unanimous.
An ICM poll in April 2004 found 47% supported arming all police, compared with 48% against.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Seaward wrote:
Getting OC sprayed fething sucks. I'd call it a decent deterrent. No idea how it compares to getting tased, but I'm not signing up for the test.
I'm all for non or less-lethal police equipment. I'm immune to CS gas so it's all gravy to me
In all seriousness though, I think arming the police with guns here in the UK would end up with more dead people and ultimately, more dead police. To a certain extent, we have seen what has happened in the US when the Pandora's Box of weapon ownership is opened and while it is still just about shut here in the UK, I think we should try to keep it that way.
Except the US has never been unarmed. The british public hasn't really ever been armed.
.
That's not a fact, actually.
The UK used to have weapon laws no more restrictive than the USA. Guns used to be a lot less common in the US than they are now, because they used to be a lot more expensive.
The rate of weapon ownership was probably fairly similar until the early 20th century, then it went up a lot in the UK because of soldiers bringing "souvenirs" back from the war.
Britain is a democracy. If the British wanted to be tooled up they would campaign and vote for it.
The key difference is that the US constitution forbids laws against weapons.
The rate of weapon ownership was probably fairly similar until the early 20th century, then it went up a lot in the UK because of soldiers bringing "souvenirs" back from the war.
Britain is a democracy. If the British wanted to be tooled up they would campaign and vote for it.
The key difference is that the US constitution forbids laws against weapons.
To be fair, when they banned handguns after the Dumblane massacre, pretty much no one had one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/20 14:39:15
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
Seaward wrote:
Getting OC sprayed fething sucks. I'd call it a decent deterrent. No idea how it compares to getting tased, but I'm not signing up for the test.
I'm all for non or less-lethal police equipment. I'm immune to CS gas so it's all gravy to me
In all seriousness though, I think arming the police with guns here in the UK would end up with more dead people and ultimately, more dead police. To a certain extent, we have seen what has happened in the US when the Pandora's Box of weapon ownership is opened and while it is still just about shut here in the UK, I think we should try to keep it that way.
Except the US has never been unarmed. The british public hasn't really ever been armed.
.
That's not a fact, actually.
The UK used to have weapon laws no more restrictive than the USA. Guns used to be a lot less common in the US than they are now, because they used to be a lot more expensive.
The rate of weapon ownership was probably fairly similar until the early 20th century, then it went up a lot in the UK because of soldiers bringing "souvenirs" back from the war.
Britain is a democracy. If the British wanted to be tooled up they would campaign and vote for it.
The key difference is that the US constitution forbids laws against weapons.
Just because they weren't restricted doesn't mean they had the guns.
The population of england hasn't needed to hunt for survival for a long time, contrasted with a large portion of the american population up until a 150ish years ago.
"Guns used to be a lot less common in the US than they are now"
Yeah, so did people. Less people around means less guns. people may have had only 1 gun because of the expense but they did have one.
I would like to see a per capita comparison between the UK and the US. I think it would clearly show that America has always had a high ratio of guns to people and the UK would be substantially lower.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Albatross wrote: I don't think all of our coppers should have guns but I DO think that our armed response should be expanded to include armed patrols of problem areas, such parts of inner-city London and certain Manchester estates. I believe that this idea was piloted for a while - not sure what happened with it.
kronk wrote: I have no comment/opinion on what your country does with regards to fire arms control for its citizens or police force.
In this same vein, I have no patience for any non-American's opinions on my country's fire arms controls.
I'm very sorry for the loss of your policemen, though.
I'm with Kronk on this one. Sorry for the loss of your officers.
On a slightly more personal note, perhaps you could temporarily re-open the Tower of London's "business" side to give this fethhead a proper haircut instead of life in prison? Frakker sounds like a complete lunatic..
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
It does surprise me how many British people are really negative about the police. But then, I found a strong undercurrent of bitterness towards pretty much every aspect of the public service when I lived in the UK. Must be all the right wing tabloid filth.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
It does surprise me how many British people are really negative about the police. But then, I found a strong undercurrent of bitterness towards pretty much every aspect of the public service when I lived in the UK. Must be all the right wing tabloid filth.
I think most people who aren't police have a negative view of the police. It isn't as if they didn't earn it.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
