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I seem to be getting a vibe that "complaining about GW is fine, but don't you dare say anything bad against PP or you're a no good white knighting fanboi!" The fact is I don't like most of the PP miniatures. Deal with it. I have as much right to dislike them as you have to dislike GW minis.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
I seem to be getting a vibe that "complaining about GW is fine, but don't you dare say anything bad against PP or you're a no good white knighting fanboi!" The fact is I don't like most of the PP miniatures. Deal with it. I have as much right to dislike them as you have to dislike GW minis.

Seems like all he is doing is arguing your criticisms. If you had just said "I don't like their models" I doubt he would have responded. However you tried to claim that PP copied some of their army concepts from GW.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
I seem to be getting a vibe that "complaining about GW is fine, but don't you dare say anything bad against PP or you're a no good white knighting fanboi!" The fact is I don't like most of the PP miniatures. Deal with it. I have as much right to dislike them as you have to dislike GW minis.

Your criticisms are illogical, betray a lack of familiarity with the human form, scream of fanboism, and imply that you don't have any experience with science fiction or fantasy settings outside of GW. I'm arguing your criticisms, and calling you a fanboi because you sound like a shrill fanboi who has no experience outside of his bubble. There's plenty to complain about concerning PP, most of it involves tournament formatting and release schedules as well as some pricing issues. Calling them copycats, especially as a defense of GW who is probably the most egregious copycatter out there is just silly.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Why does there have to be a THIS vs THAT ?

I play 40K. While I may not play many other wargames other I play plenty of other games. There is just no this vs that at my club. We're Gamers, we play games. Plural.

This is entirely true for me, however by eliminating 40k from my personal "repertoire" of games played, I suddenly find that I have a lot more money the many other games that I play. Which is ultimately what this thread is about, the money for your personal hobby, and which company you send that money too.

From my experience gamers have a lot more money to spend on toys than they like to admit.

Gamers also like complaining. A lot.

And low and behold anyone that doesn't like a gamers favourite game.

It was a joke, league of legends is a popular free to play videogame with very few analogues to warhammer fantasy beyond being vaguely magical and medieval.

Ahhhh well that figures. Not up to those fangled dangled video games people keep referring about

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
I seem to be getting a vibe that "complaining about GW is fine, but don't you dare say anything bad against PP or you're a no good white knighting fanboi!" The fact is I don't like most of the PP miniatures. Deal with it. I have as much right to dislike them as you have to dislike GW minis.

Your criticisms are illogical, betray a lack of familiarity with the human form, scream of fanboism, and imply that you don't have any experience with science fiction or fantasy settings outside of GW. I'm arguing your criticisms, and calling you a fanboi because you sound like a shrill fanboi who has no experience outside of his bubble. There's plenty to complain about concerning PP, most of it involves tournament formatting and release schedules as well as some pricing issues. Calling them copycats, especially as a defense of GW who is probably the most egregious copycatter out there is just silly.

Point taken. However I wasn't talking about the proportions on the human models, which are alright. My complaints are directed towards the Warjacks, which I simply do not like.

And your argument reeks of "well obviously you won't like it, it's far too high out of your bubble of meager experience" elitist snobbery, as if your Warmahordes models and games are so undoubtedly superior to anything that GW makes and I'm a filthy commoner for enjoying such lowbrow entertainment.

Point taken. However I wasn't talking about the proportions on the human models, which are alright. My complaints are directed towards the Warjacks, which I simply do not like.

Which is perfectly fine, but don't do it in comparison to incomparables. You can't say that khador are a ripoff of world eaters and have bad proportions. First of all, space marine propotions are the worst in the industry, second of all space marines have their own tiny legged robot. It's a bad criticism and boils down to you not liking something for no reason other than because it competes with something you do like.

And your argument reeks of "well obviously you won't like it, it's far too high out of your bubble of meager experience" elitist snobbery, as if your Warmahordes models and games are so undoubtedly superior to anything that GW makes and I'm a filthy commoner for enjoying such lowbrow entertainment.

I have a much larger 40k army than I do a warmachine one. I don't like your arguments because they're really bad arguments that make you sound like a child. It has nothing to do with my preference for warmachine. If I sound elitest to you, that's your problem. Being right doesn't make me elitest.

Personally I'm just curious how Khador rips off Blood Eaters other than being red and having a single unit type of berserkers, a common archetype.

 AduroT wrote:
Personally I'm just curious how Khador rips off Blood Eaters other than being red and having a single unit type of berserkers, a common archetype.

Axes? I'm at a loss too. I think it's just that they're red.

 AduroT wrote:
Personally I'm just curious how Khador rips off Blood Eaters other than being red and having a single unit type of berserkers, a common archetype.

Clearly the Khadoran anvil is a ripoff of the World Eaters symbol. I mean, just look at it! This side by side is damning evidence!

I read the comment and thought HAH! Then I looked at the pictures and wow, they're actually rather close. Clearly the World Eaters are Russians! Who knew?!

O great. Here come the GW lawyers out of the woodwork to try to get at PP saying Khador Copied World Eaters..

GW Lawyer: World Eaters are indeed Russions, it may not say it on the box or symbol directly, but one of our Designers thought it at one time...... along with the little globe on the world eaters symbol is supposed to show russia on the map, so Sir, to court we go..

And! how dare you have 8 points on the Khador Symbol like the World eaters Symbol no one else thought of that before us.

AND! RED.. How dare you make a Red army.. that is our Color/Colour.

 AduroT wrote:
I read the comment and thought HAH! Then I looked at the pictures and wow, they're actually rather close. Clearly the World Eaters are Russians! Who knew?!

Now post a Star of David up there as well. OMGWTF!! Common symbolism is common!

 sourclams wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I read the comment and thought HAH! Then I looked at the pictures and wow, they're actually rather close. Clearly the World Eaters are Russians! Who knew?!

Now post a Star of David up there as well. OMGWTF!! Common symbolism is common!

I think he was being sarcastic

 sourclams wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I read the comment and thought HAH! Then I looked at the pictures and wow, they're actually rather close. Clearly the World Eaters are Russians! Who knew?!

Now post a Star of David up there as well. OMGWTF!! Common symbolism is common!

The Star of David only has 6 points. Chaos Star (and the World Eaters symbol) has 8 points. The Star of David doesn't have enough spiky bits for GW to claim a copyright on it.

 Surtur wrote:
I think he was being sarcastic

Yeah, me too.

*drum roll* and.. time for a post about Michael Moorcock's Chaos star?

Actually, I'm kind of surprised that the chaos 8-pointed star hasn't been quietly sidelined and replaced by a new, copyrightable version of something to represent the 'evil guys' in 40k/WFB? It's not like that the current description of chaos in the background is anything like the original concept of 'chaos' in any case.

Not only an eight pointed star, but isn't that a "Skaven" rune symbol in the middle.

I love people who accuse anyone of ripping off GW, when you look what GW ripped and then slapped an IP order onto.

PP or GW, SCI Fi/Fantasy or Flames of War, get a grip we all play with toy soldiers - I like the green army men, but the tan ones are better - the whole idea is to have fun?

wilycoyote wrote:
but the tan ones are better

I beg your pardon?

 jonolikespie wrote:
I tried to get into warmachine not that long ago, I picked up a starter box, built 1 jack, looked at it for a while and failed to come up with a proper paint scheme then never bothered with the other or the character.
I'm right behind you on the whole 'GW charges way too much' thing but I was really disappointed in the quality and material used by PP.

This is what it is for me. The quality of mini's. Yes, GW charges a bit too much....yes, they are very self centered when it comes to their product and they often seem to care much more about money then their customer....yes, they don't have the best and most professional business practice. That being said, GW produces the best tabletop RPG around...the models are of the highest quality for that genre and their game system is the most balanced and thoughtful.

Whenever one of my buds tries to get me into WM/Hordes..they show me models. I tell that "that looks horrible" and they don't disagree. With GW, you get what you pay for...well, what you overpay for. They are still the best and PP is very far behind. Just talking the talk about "playing like you have a pair" isn't enough....you need to actually produce high quality models. They don't. GW still wins...for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spyder68 wrote:
O great. Here come the GW lawyers out of the woodwork to try to get at PP saying Khador Copied World Eaters..

GW Lawyer: World Eaters are indeed Russions, it may not say it on the box or symbol directly, but one of our Designers thought it at one time...... along with the little globe on the world eaters symbol is supposed to show russia on the map, so Sir, to court we go..

And! how dare you have 8 points on the Khador Symbol like the World eaters Symbol no one else thought of that before us.

AND! RED.. How dare you make a Red army.. that is our Color/Colour.

You spelled Russians wrong, maybe you should call GW and ask how to spell it....hahaha

the models are of the highest quality for that genre and their game system is the most balanced and thoughtful.

If you are claiming that 40k is the most balanced and thoughtful system in the market I'll start suspecting you're some sort of lizard creature from the core of the earth entirely unfamiliar with human customs or games.

Whenever one of my buds tries to get me into WM/Hordes..they show me models. I tell that "that looks horrible" and they don't disagree.

Just talking the talk about "playing like you have a pair" isn't enough....you need to actually produce high quality models. They don't. GW still wins...for now.

You spelled Russians wrong, maybe you should call GW and ask how to spell it....hahaha

He'd probably get a different answer every time he called.

To me seems people are confusing quality with design... besides for me the only way I can conclude x miniature has quality or not is by looking to the sum of all parts that makes a miniature... not only design... Sculpting level, Design, casting, scale, material are some of the parts in the mix...

If your world is only PP and GW IMO I can say both miniswise are on the exact same level, both are a hit and miss each new release, both have issues with the casting but GW wins there with finecast issues.... To me they are similar even if their designs are quite diferent.

Looking at other comparisons between companies I believe PP started by following GW biz model ( one company sells you a package deal that includes minis, rules, artwork, paints, publications and 2 main ranges) but PP took it to a much higher level of quality there, paints superior, artwork more professional and consistent, all factions supported, comunities with own forums and lots of previews etc etc etc... PP is more aggressive and knows the internet crowd importance they also give you more options and choices along the way... while GW is one trick poney you buy one army and your stuck with it for years.

If I had to choose just one of the two I would pick Corvus belli Seriously I have armies from these 3 companies all cool with diferent flavours all with pros and cons.

almostreal wrote:
That being said, GW produces the best tabletop RPG around...the models are of the highest quality for that genre and their game system is the most balanced and thoughtful.

I... by genre you mean science fiction, right? Because if you just mean they have the most balanced tabletop game..

wilycoyote wrote:
Not only an eight pointed star, but isn't that a "Skaven" rune symbol in the middle.

No, it's a clearly a stylised anvil. Good lord! if anyone did their homework before saying "Hurr durr PP rip off GW look!" then we'd have less of these discussions.

almostreal wrote:
That being said, GW produces the best tabletop RPG around...the models are of the highest quality for that genre and their game system is the most balanced and thoughtful.

You're... you're kidding, right?

Mattman154 wrote:

wilycoyote wrote:
but the tan ones are better

I beg your pardon?

This comment has made me have the best start to the day.
Good dry humour successfully pulled off on the interwebs? awesome

Balanced and thoughtful game? GW? Now look, that has to be more dry humour.

almostreal wrote:
That being said, GW produces the best tabletop RPG around...the models are of the highest quality for that genre and their game system is the most balanced and thoughtful.

Whenever one of my buds tries to get me into WM/Hordes..they show me models.

So without ever actually playing WM/H for any amount of time, or possibly at all, you know that 40k/Fantasy are better? That's some fair and balanced, right there. The simple existence of the YMDC forums 10+ page threads shows that GW games are prone to murkiness and player uncertainty.

I tell that "that looks horrible" and they don't disagree.

Warjack models are generally plain. The warbeast models are some of the most gorgeous figs I've seen in any game system. Total stylistic appeal, not just the amount of skulls they crammed onto a dude.

They are still the best and PP is very far behind. Just talking the talk about "playing like you have a pair" isn't enough....you need to actually produce high quality models. They don't. GW still wins...for now.

GW's new models are better executed than PP's old models, primarily due to production technology. PP's old models have hits and misses just like GW's. PP's new models are overall better quality and cleanness of detail than everything I've gotten from Forge World, and it's primarily the less cluttered aesthetic that can make them look plain or unadorned next to new GW models which, while at a high detail level, also suffer from a lot of clutter. I LAFF at the new chaos space marine power armor lord, not to mention the general SKULLS EVERYWHERE aesthetic..

Even then, you cannot look at the Thunderhawk, the Grey Knight Baby Carrier, the Chaos Space Dragon, the Space Marine Cockpit+Guns, and other stylistically weird models in the GW line and tell me with a straight face that GW nails it all the time, every time. When GW makes a fantastic model, like the Ork fightabomma, it's a truly fantastic model. I strongly dislike the distinctly cartooney bend that has slipped through with several of their more high profile releases recently.

 NAVARRO wrote:
To me seems people are confusing quality with design...

This here. I've got no problems with the quality of PP's stuff (for the most part. Like all miniatures companies, they have quality sculpts and abysmal sculpts), but the aesthetic they've chosen for the game just doesn't sit will with me. I'm not even against steampunk looking stuff either like their warjacks, but the aesthetic still rubs me the wrong way.

This isn't pro-GW snobbery either - Corvus Bellis stuff far surpasses GW and PP.

PP and GW couldn't be more different from model design. The universes are so drastically different to the point where most of the models in Warmahordes and warhammer/40k can't even be remotely used in each other's games.

I love a lot of the Hordes line as pure models. They are abstract, neat and well sculpted with great poses. They are one of the lines while I don't enjoy playing the game, the models are awesome for collectors/painters.

I gotta say tho, both lines have amazing sculpts and 'blah' models... Both have issues with their resin-ish casted models and have great plastics and they cost about the same which make them as reasonable wash when it comes to 'superior' models. Boils down to which ones you like to look at and paint or mechanics you enjoy.

 -Loki- wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
To me seems people are confusing quality with design...

This here. I've got no problems with the quality of PP's stuff (for the most part. Like all miniatures companies, they have quality sculpts and abysmal sculpts), but the aesthetic they've chosen for the game just doesn't sit will with me. I'm not even against steampunk looking stuff either like their warjacks, but the aesthetic still rubs me the wrong way.

This isn't pro-GW snobbery either - Corvus Bellis stuff far surpasses GW and PP.

I personally love the aesthetic and love the game. Warmahordes hits all the right buttons with me that GW has consistently not been doing recently. Whilst I agree that the Infinity stuff is utterly amazing, the setting simply does not appeal to me. I love drooling over whatever they produce, but that's about it. I sated this lust somewhat by deciding to do Retribution for WM. One a side note, with one of aesthetics, my Ret get no end of comments when people see them about how much better the models look IRL. The studio Retribution colour scheme is one of the standout examples of PP's stylistic misses IMO.