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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
...Khorne Bersekers are now practically useless...

Where do you get that from?

 Spartan089 wrote:
...loss of ccw's in profile of csm's, (have to buy em now...)...

You can get 'em for free by replacing your bolter.

1. Zerkers are base 1 attack now, used to be base 2. They have rage and counter attack, but those are only good for the first round of combat. All they have over basic CSM are WS5 and fearless. They arn't even on par with death company and DC is cheaper and better at what they do...

2. Then I lose about 12 inches of firing range...I shouldn't have to choose

Overall I had a fairly meh reaction to the codex (the whole release has been somewhat underwhelming really.) I'm really not a fan of the Champion of Chaos and Boon of Chaos rules. I had intended on using C:CSM for an army of Fallen DA. With everyone mutating left and right that's just not going to fit as well anymore. So I'm left scratching my head if I want to still do some Fallen and just pretend that the mutations are something else, or wait for CA and see if that fits (and just run the Chosen and Hellbrute models as loyalists I suppose, since I was planning on using my DV box set as the core of the list.) I'm not thrilled with either option really.

That said, for a balls to the wall crazy-ass screamin' marines army I think the codex could be fun.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
The book sucks plain and simple in my opinion, almost no change and in other areas worse...waited 5 years for disappointment.

Would you mind backing that claim up? Because that's objectively not true at all.

No new independent characters, points increase's to a few units including massive increases for Daemon Princes and defilers, Khorne Bersekers are now practically useless, Thousand sons still over priced, inability to take an unmarked prince, loss of infiltrate for chosen, loss of ccw's in profile of csm's (have to buy em now...) Thats to name just a few...

Yup, they're changes. Thanks for proving yourself wrong. You also conveniently ignored that a CSM with a CCW is the same cost as in the 4th ed Codex, with the option of just going CCW/BP for 13 points.


On the plus side, Havocs, Noise Marines, "Normal" Marines, Plague Marines, Lords, Sorcerers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Bikes, Warpsmiths, Bikes, Heldrakes and Obliterators are all at least useable.

One last question since the store copy was being passed around so much yesterday that I didn't get a look at it.

Can cultist squads take icons?

Nope. Only Marks.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

On the plus side, Havocs, Noise Marines, "Normal" Marines, Plague Marines, Lords, Sorcerers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Bikes, Warpsmiths, Bikes, Heldrakes and Obliterators are all at least useable.

Is that all?! well in that case the codex is obviously rubbish, i dont need to read it myself to knwo that! I for one will be boycotting all GW products from now and I plan to ritually burn all my models.
Whos with me?!


/sarcasm

 Spartan089 wrote:

1. Zerkers are base 1 attack now, used to be base 2. They have rage and counter attack, but those are only good for the first round of combat. All they have over basic CSM are WS5 and fearless. They arn't even on par with death company and DC is cheaper and better at what they do...

Don't forget DC are Troops and zerks are elites, sure DC can't score so they would be pretty much the same on those terms, however using one out of the 3 slots for zerks sucks, specially since they have so many competition on elites, while DC are 1 out of 6 slots which makes it a lot easier to just add them to your list.

All of this assuming you don't have a khorne lord on your army which you shouldn't unless playing a fluffy list

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

1. Zerkers are base 1 attack now, used to be base 2. They have rage and counter attack, but those are only good for the first round of combat. All they have over basic CSM are WS5 and fearless. They arn't even on par with death company and DC is cheaper and better at what they do...

Don't forget DC are Troops and zerks are elites, sure DC can't score so they would be pretty much the same on those terms, however using one out of the 3 slots for zerks sucks, specially since they have so many competition on elites, while DC are 1 out of 6 slots which makes it a lot easier to just add them to your list.

All of this assuming you don't have a khorne lord on your army which you shouldn't unless playing a fluffy list

Why not run a Khorne Lord? Kharn is a powerhouse, as is a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut with the Axe of Blind Fury. At which point your Berzerkers are pretty strong melee scoring troops. They lost an attack, but dropped in points. They are a bit harder to deliver to combat in 6E thanks to the new vehicle transport rules - but with an Icon, they get to reroll charge range, which gives them a solid threat range on their own.

I don't think they have as much going for them as some other units that got buffed in the codex, but I think they are a far, far cry from useless.

'Zerkers were always best on the charge anyway - were you expecting that to change?

Palindrome wrote:

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
Aren't a five man squad of plasma gun wielding chosen dead now that the champion can't take a plasmagun?

No, you can take 5 PGs and a combi plasma now.

Strictly speaking, that's a six-man squad. So I suppose that, technically, the original question is "yes", but I can't see any particular reason why a six-marine squad (with 6 plasma items) is worse than a five-marine squad except for the points differentials. It's not like CSM ever wants to cram a 5-man squad and an IC into a Razorback.

I'm disappointed by the lack of variety in daemonic weapons. For non-khornate CSM, you get the mace, and that's it.

Myth wrote:

Why not run a Khorne Lord? Kharn is a powerhouse, as is a Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut with the Axe of Blind Fury. At which point your Berzerkers are pretty strong melee scoring troops. They lost an attack, but dropped in points. They are a bit harder to deliver to combat in 6E thanks to the new vehicle transport rules - but with an Icon, they get to reroll charge range, which gives them a solid threat range on their own.

I don't think they have as much going for them as some other units that got buffed in the codex, but I think they are a far, far cry from useless.

Oh yeah, kharn is definitively worth it, and truth be told I just skipped the jugger options but reading it yeah that might work as well as long as you field a unit of bikes to go with him and even there he could be focus fired to take saves from low AP weapons (since cavalry can't claim jink save), still for something around 160 points I guess is fine, he could go with the infantry as well but good luck crossing that table.

I laughed at Spartan809's "sky is falling" tirade...on the inside, but laughed nonetheless. I think that's the "best" complaint post yet.

Kharn is looking like a good HQ choice. There are a lot of lists that I'm really looking forward to trying.

I can't wait for tomorrow!

Do I really need to copy/paste the enumerated list from the other thread?

Anything that would be omg cool has a massive - not small, like "can't go in a transport thunderwolves" small, MASSIVE drawback.

"My daemon prince can fly and is I8 and can take this mace that shreds things!!!!!!"

".....but if they're in cover I'm initiative 1, I can't control this daemon even though I'm a powerful daemon (and it's not actually a daemon weapon, it's an unholy blessed/cursed weapon), so it might make me WS1, I can be instakilled by any chumpy librarian, and I can't get better than a 5+ save and stay fluffy to any army but tzeentch"

"I have 8 S8 shots!"

"But I'm an armor 12, BS 3 walker that's huge. It will not die is useless when I DO die because they penetrated and I failed my save"

"I assault really far and reduce your attacks! And I get lots of them!"

"But I'm WS 3 I 3 and can't reduce attacks below 1, so everyone will just use krak grenades hitting on 3 before I get to attack. I could charge in supported by someone, but if they're in btb with me I reduce their attacks too."

I can't wait until someone charges 2 maulerfiends into a unit only to have each one get 1 attack.

Where's the cool? Where's the "wow awesome"? Not game-breaking, just a "wow!". Everything is meh. Berserkers meh, noisemarines with sonic weapons meh. Lords meh.

Spellbound wrote:
Do I really need to copy/paste the enumerated list from the other thread?

Anything that would be omg cool has a massive - not small, like "can't go in a transport thunderwolves" small, MASSIVE drawback.

"My daemon prince can fly and is I8 and can take this mace that shreds things!!!!!!"

".....but if they're in cover I'm initiative 1, I can't control this daemon even though I'm a powerful daemon (and it's not actually a daemon weapon, it's an unholy blessed/cursed weapon), so it might make me WS1, I can be instakilled by any chumpy librarian, and I can't get better than a 5+ save and stay fluffy to any army but tzeentch"

"I have 8 S8 shots!"

"But I'm an armor 12, BS 3 walker that's huge. It will not die is useless when I DO die because they penetrated and I failed my save"

"I assault really far and reduce your attacks! And I get lots of them!"

"But I'm WS 3 I 3 and can't reduce attacks below 1, so everyone will just use krak grenades hitting on 3 before I get to attack. I could charge in supported by someone, but if they're in btb with me I reduce their attacks too."

I can't wait until someone charges 2 maulerfiends into a unit only to have each one get 1 attack.

Where's the cool? Where's the "wow awesome"? Not game-breaking, just a "wow!". Everything is meh. Berserkers meh, noisemarines with sonic weapons meh. Lords meh.

Wow, angry much?

There is a simple answer for all your issues - dont play. No-one is forcing you to get the codex or play the army. Ebay it - it WILL sell, then just wait for the next marines codex to come out. But you'll probably find something wrong withthat one as well....i see a pattern forming.

So your Av12 walker charges a unit and they get reduced to 1 attack...and they use a krak grenade...OH NOES. Wouldn't they still need a 6 to glance? and IF they did, woudln't you still get to roll a 5+ to ignore that glance? and if the glance went through, coudln't you just roll ANOTHER 5+ to get the hull point back (unless you have a Warpsmith in which case it is a 4+ i think)?

Why are some people never satisfied?

The army has changed. Adapt or leave.

[quote=Spartan089 479921 4839578 a976a83f0cb8a1f7ab5448323406559b.jpgNo new independent characters, points increase's to a few units including massive increases for Daemon Princes and defilers, Khorne Bersekers are now practically useless, Thousand sons still over priced, inability to take an unmarked prince, loss of infiltrate for chosen, loss of ccw's in profile of csm's, (have to buy em now...), Oblits losing the ability to form a ccw, losing fearless AND cant use the same weapon twice in a row....

 kcwm wrote:
I laughed at Spartan809's "sky is falling" tirade...on the inside, but laughed nonetheless. I think that's the "best" complaint post yet.

Kharn is looking like a good HQ choice. There are a lot of lists that I'm really looking forward to trying.

I can't wait for tomorrow!

Awesome ideas, glad to see more than like 3 people are happy about this dex.

I can't wait. Really looking forwar to picking up my codex tomorrow.

The codex is fine, I've spent all my day making different lists, there are lots of options that sound fun, and fluffy, so long i can't wait to try my new Night Lords list with maxed raptors, bikes and warptalons, or an iron warriors chaozilla, helbrutes & fiends with warpsmiths, with some heavy unmarked heavy weapons marines or black legion with abaddon an lots of chosens with power weapons.

The codex is ok and has lots of nice units and compared to the last one it will hold up better, however it in no way got a SW/GK/IG codex status. I don't think it will stomp the other armies away like those 3 but at least it won't get raped by low model count high cost with poor outcomes units like it was on the 4th edition codex. Not being all powered up that is what have people QQing about

i think that units on their own appear lack lustre in some cases for a reason.

Recently the codecies seem to aiming towards making players have more synergy in their army.

Necrons for example - wraiths by themselvs are nice...but pair them with a D-lord for a special treat!!

Yes, a Maulerfiend by itself is not amzing. But put a Warpsmith with it and a forgefiend elsewhere for fire support and suddenly it's a beast (this is just an example, i'm sure there are better ones as well).

I for one welcome the move away from "one-list" codecies.

Spellbound wrote:


Where's the cool? Where's the "wow awesome"? Not game-breaking, just a "wow!". Everything is meh. Berserkers meh, noisemarines with sonic weapons meh. Lords meh.

This sounds like the IG codex when it was released. Everyone looked at it and said "this codex sucks, there is nothing that is great".

Iron Warriors look like they came out pretty good overall, I'm planning to create some kind of ridiculous gun-toting mini-titan to be a forgefiend counts-as.

My only gripe is why do we only get two Daemon weapons? And one is Khorne only, so we really only get one. What was wrong with the whole "generic daemon weapons which have slightly different abilities depending on the mark"? I'm hoping this is somehow an oversight and we get them back.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Iron Warriors look like they came out pretty good overall, I'm planning to create some kind of ridiculous gun-toting mini-titan to be a forgefiend counts-as.

My only gripe is why do we only get two Daemon weapons? And one is Khorne only, so we really only get one. What was wrong with the whole "generic daemon weapons which have slightly different abilities depending on the mark"? I'm hoping this is somehow an oversight and we get them back.

I doubt we'll get them back... It's not that bad though the PF/LC non-khorne lords can still drop some high dmg and never have a chance to take a wound and WS1

There are some brutal combinations in here.. you can put a malediction on a foe that makes the who squad -1ws, -1bs.. Have fun charging and hitting on 3's, not to mention if makes sonic weaponry hit at +1S vs them, and it explicity states that the effects are cumulative!!!

Access to Biomancy? hell yes!! Access to a demon prince that can be mastery level 3 as well as Mastery level 3 sorcerers? hell yes!! Awesome psychic powers in all 3 chaos trees? Whats that, I can take a spell familiar that lets me reroll my psychic test!

But wait, heres a scroll that gives you a random spell every turn, an artifact weapon that doubles the users strength, is ap1 and instant death vs one enemy character. Prehaps the cheapest bikes I've seen, with the option to take 2 sepcial weapons in a squad as small as 3! Raptors inflict fear and are cheaper, Warp Talons inflict blindness ...

I can't see why people are going "meeeeh" over the codex. I will be having some smashing good times with it.

decoste007xt wrote:
There are some brutal combinations in here.. you can put a malediction on a foe that makes the who squad -1ws, -1bs.. Have fun charging and hitting on 3's, not to mention if makes sonic weaponry hit at +1S vs them, and it explicity states that the effects are cumulative!!!

Access to Biomancy? hell yes!! Access to a demon prince that can be mastery level 3 as well as Mastery level 3 sorcerers? hell yes!! Awesome psychic powers in all 3 chaos trees? Whats that, I can take a spell familiar that lets me reroll my psychic test!

But wait, heres a scroll that gives you a random spell every turn, an artifact weapon that doubles the users strength, is ap1 and instant death vs one enemy character. Prehaps the cheapest bikes I've seen, with the option to take 2 sepcial weapons in a squad as small as 3! Raptors inflict fear and are cheaper, Warp Talons inflict blindness ...

I can't see why people are going "meeeeh" over the codex. I will be having some smashing good times with it.

To bad 80% of the units out there ignore fear, other 10% will pass it almost all the time, and the 10% left are WS/BS 2/3 anyway.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Iron Warriors look like they came out pretty good overall, I'm planning to create some kind of ridiculous gun-toting mini-titan to be a forgefiend counts-as.

Can I recommend the DreamForge Mortis? That's what I am going with, though I will be Nurglifying mine

Well I'm a Gurad palyer and lookin to pick-up a new army, and i have to say this codex looks like a ton of fun! Random "boons" their own cool pycker powers and awesome giant monster mechs just to name a few of the awesome features. So if anyone wants to sell me their now "gakky" CSM just PM me please I'll take them of your hands no problem, and then you can leave my freaking game and go cry with everyone who hangs out at every 40k night at the FLGS ruining everyone elses time.

Can I win? Absolutely. But it's not about winning. Stomp me into the ground for all I care. But if I could get stomped into the ground using a slaanesh lord that oh, I don't know, had something slaaneshi other than a tattoo, I'd be happy.

I can make a basic noisemarines more slaaneshi than a lord by having a sonic weapon and feel no pain from a masochism banner. That one infantry model is infinitely more slaaneshi than I am able to make my lords, sorcerers, and princes. My characters. So named because, supposedly, they have "more character" than the others.

That is not the case. I cannot theme my army around slaanesh, I can just put tattoos on things.

That's all I wanted. I wanted god-specific armies to be able to show that with more than just marks. And it didn't deliver.

Overpowered shmoverpowered. I just want a lord that can take a doom siren and a special slaanesh-blessed scimitar, is that too much to ask?

 Magc8Ball wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
Aren't a five man squad of plasma gun wielding chosen dead now that the champion can't take a plasmagun?

No, you can take 5 PGs and a combi plasma now.

Strictly speaking, that's a six-man squad. So I suppose that, technically, the original question is "yes", but I can't see any particular reason why a six-marine squad (with 6 plasma items) is worse than a five-marine squad except for the points differentials. It's not like CSM ever wants to cram a 5-man squad and an IC into a Razorback.

Also, I'm not sure where the idea came from that the Chosen Champion can't take one of their special weapons. Up to 4 "models" can gear up with a flamer, meltagun or plasma gun, which includes him. He isn't a valid choice for their heavy weapon option, but you can run a 5 model chosen unit, all with Plasma Guns, without any problems.

Spellbound wrote:
Can I win? Absolutely. But it's not about winning. Stomp me into the ground for all I care. But if I could get stomped into the ground using a slaanesh lord that oh, I don't know, had something slaaneshi other than a tattoo, I'd be happy.

I can make a basic noisemarines more slaaneshi than a lord by having a sonic weapon and feel no pain from a masochism banner. That one infantry model is infinitely more slaaneshi than I am able to make my lords, sorcerers, and princes. My characters. So named because, supposedly, they have "more character" than the others.

That is not the case. I cannot theme my army around slaanesh, I can just put tattoos on things.

That's all I wanted. I wanted god-specific armies to be able to show that with more than just marks. And it didn't deliver.

Overpowered shmoverpowered. I just want a lord that can take a doom siren and a special slaanesh-blessed scimitar, is that too much to ask?

Totally agreed, I was disappointed when I saw that the khrone character had their own special daemon weapon but not the other chaos gods. That being said for a doom siren, trying take str 4 ap 3 torrent flamer as a count as. That's what I will be doing.