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 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, the only restriction is that the Zombies can't purchase Options.

They were not Zombies at the time they purchased options. And as Zombies they have purchased no options at all. No restriction that they automatically lose any options they purchased prior to being zombies.

Actually there are restrictions in regard to melee and ranged weapons. So if the Chaos Cultist had purchased the option of a heavy stubber and the Cultist champion had purchased the option of a special close combat weapon, once nominated to become Plague Zombies those options become a single close combat weapon and cannot be repurchased as Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. No such modifications exist for increaing unit size or marks on the champion.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, the only restriction is that the Zombies can't purchase Options.

They were not Zombies at the time they purchased options. And as Zombies they have purchased no options at all. No restriction that they automatically lose any options they purchased prior to being zombies.

Actually there are restrictions in regard to melee and ranged weapons. So if the Chaos Cultist had purchased the option of a heavy stubber and the Cultist champion had purchased the option of a special close combat weapon, once nominated to become Plague Zombies those options become a single close combat weapon and cannot be repurchased as Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. No such modifications exist for increaing unit size or marks on the champion.

Yup

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, the only restriction is that the Zombies can't purchase Options.

They were not Zombies at the time they purchased options. And as Zombies they have purchased no options at all. No restriction that they automatically lose any options they purchased prior to being zombies.

Actually there are restrictions in regard to melee and ranged weapons. So if the Chaos Cultist had purchased the option of a heavy stubber and the Cultist champion had purchased the option of a special close combat weapon, once nominated to become Plague Zombies those options become a single close combat weapon and cannot be repurchased as Plague Zombies cannot purchase options. No such modifications exist for increaing unit size or marks on the champion.

How are you making up a restriction in regards to melee and ranged weapons? The plague zombie rule states "cannot purchase options". Applying your logic means they can either purchase all of the options (because nomination happens after, and as such the plague zombie cannot purchase option restriction is moot), or they "cannot purchase ANY options" and they have to be 10 mans.

You're drawing a line between additional models and ranged/melee weapons because it's what you feel it should be or is trying to say, the problem is, it's not the raw of it

Target wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Timing issues regardless, the unit consists of ten models when purchased and yes as an option you can bring the total up to thirty-five models.

Making the unit Plague Zombies goes without question when the unit has ten models, however declaring them as Plague Zombies when the unit has 10+ models is not possible because the unit has been given options... an oversight perhaps ? sure but the rule is clearly RAW at the moment.

Adding weapon upgrades is an option
Buffing the champion is an option
Adding models to the unit is an option

Wrong yet again.

There is no restriction on a Chaos Cultist unit purchasing the option to increase the unit size to 35. That is a legal and valid option. Any Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to become Plague Zombies. There is no restriction on that either. Prior to nomination the Chaos Cultist unit did, however they are not restricted from doing so. After nomination, at no time did the Plague Zombies purchase an option because;

1. They are no longer Chaos Cultists and thus allowed to purchase options.
2. They do not have any options to purchase.

You're making a distinction that isn't in the rules because you want it to be one way for personal reasons, and I get that, but it has put blinders on you. There is 0 difference between purchasing a weapon option, and purchasing additional models option. They're in the same list of options. You can't say one option is legal but the others aren't, because you have absolutely nothing to support that.

Under your logic, it is perfectly legal to buy marks and anything you want for chaos cultists, because at the time you purchased, they were chaos cultists. Then you nominated them as zombies. The zombies don't purchase options, the chaos cultists did.

Except that logic is clearly flawed, and would make the entire line of text "cannot purchase options" under the plague zombie rule moot.

Not really. The Plague Zombie rule would remove any Marks/Rules that unit had prior to being nominated. The rule says that Plague Zombies are Cultists with FnP, Fearless and SnP. Whether 10 or 35(i have no opinion on the size limit at this time) that is all they get. One Champion, and the rest of the unit with only those 3 USR's and any ranged weapons are moot because the unit counts as only having a single CCW.

Target wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Timing issues regardless, the unit consists of ten models when purchased and yes as an option you can bring the total up to thirty-five models.

Making the unit Plague Zombies goes without question when the unit has ten models, however declaring them as Plague Zombies when the unit has 10+ models is not possible because the unit has been given options... an oversight perhaps ? sure but the rule is clearly RAW at the moment.

Adding weapon upgrades is an option
Buffing the champion is an option
Adding models to the unit is an option

Wrong yet again.

There is no restriction on a Chaos Cultist unit purchasing the option to increase the unit size to 35. That is a legal and valid option. Any Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to become Plague Zombies. There is no restriction on that either. Prior to nomination the Chaos Cultist unit did, however they are not restricted from doing so. After nomination, at no time did the Plague Zombies purchase an option because;

1. They are no longer Chaos Cultists and thus allowed to purchase options.
2. They do not have any options to purchase.

You're making a distinction that isn't in the rules because you want it to be one way for personal reasons, and I get that, but it has put blinders on you. There is 0 difference between purchasing a weapon option, and purchasing additional models option. They're in the same list of options. You can't say one option is legal but the others aren't, because you have absolutely nothing to support that.

Under your logic, it is perfectly legal to buy marks and anything you want for chaos cultists, because at the time you purchased, they were chaos cultists. Then you nominated them as zombies. The zombies don't purchase options, the chaos cultists did.

Except that logic is clearly flawed, and would make the entire line of text "cannot purchase options" under the plague zombie rule moot.

I have no pony in this race as I only play Space Wolves.

Melee and ranged weapon options purchased when the unit was purchased as Chaos Cultists is addressed in that after being nominated they become a single close combat weapon.

The text of "cannot purchase options" is not moot due to the line that Liturgies of Blood pointed out in that states Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with the additional rules listed. If that text was not included, I could nominate a unit of Chaos Cultists with a heavy stubber to become Plague Zzombies and the heavy stubber becomes a single close combat weapon and then turn around and purchase a heavy stubber again as the rule says that Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with additional special rules.

My point was that zombies are cultists plus, they still have the same stats etc but have no access to the options. Cannot have stubbers, more men, marks, or a shotgun on the champion.

Target wrote:
How are you making up a restriction in regards to melee and ranged weapons? The plague zombie rule states "cannot purchase options". Applying your logic means they can either purchase all of the options (because nomination happens after, and as such the plague zombie cannot purchase option restriction is moot), or they "cannot purchase ANY options" and they have to be 10 mans.

If you interpret it in such a way that they can purchase all the options before nomination, that only actually matters w/r/t the unit size. As soon as they're nominated they lose any wargear they might have purchased; a zombie has a single ccw and the specified USRs, nothing else. Because they are now zombies and unable to purchase options, they can't buy those weapons back. This interpretation doesn't render the "can't take options" line moot, nor does it stop you from fielding a unit of 35 zombies.

Not saying this is the "correct" RAW but I don't see anything in the entry that prevents it from being interpreted this way.

e; i took so long writing this post that Grimtooth basically said all of this before I finished it~

 liturgies of blood wrote:
My point was that zombies are cultists plus, they still have the same stats etc but have no access to the options. Cannot have stubbers, more men, marks, or a shotgun on the champion.

But you just prove my point.

Chaos Cultist prior to being nominated are JUST Chaos Cultists that can legally increase their unit size to 35. After nomination they are Plague Zombies which you point out are now "Cultists Plus" that have additional USRs and cannot take options.

So, a perfectly legal option is chosen for a Chaos Cultist unit (increase unit to 35). That option was chosen and paid for BY the Chaos Cultist unit. Said unit is nominated to be Plague Zombies aka Cultists Plus. That Plague Zombie (Cultists Plus) unit has 35 models in it, but at no time did that unit of Plague Zombies (Cultists Plus) choose or pay for the option to increase the unit to 35 models after it had been nominated.

RAW is followed and adhered to because at no time did the Plague Zombies choose and purchase an option.

No, you cannot agree with the clause which states they are cultists that cannot have any options, if you have 10+ men.

You are introducing a difference between the units that doesn't exist. Zombies are still cultists, at no point are they no longer cultists, they are cultists with additional rules. Just like when you have given infiltrator to a cultist squad with blackheart. You haven't proven that they are different just kept saying they are.

That they cannot buy guns is already covered by the 2nd line. The 3rd line of the rule sates that the weapons the unit already has are now just a single ccw. You cannot have options and whatever guns your basic model have are ignored.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No, you cannot agree with the clause which states they are cultists that cannot have any options, if you have 10+ men.

You are introducing a difference between the units that doesn't exist. Zombies are still cultists, at no point are they no longer cultists, they are cultists with additional rules. Just like when you have given infiltrator to a cultist squad with blackheart. You haven't proven that they are different just kept saying they are.

That they cannot buy guns is already covered by the 2nd line. The 3rd line of the rule sates that the weapons the unit already has are now just a single ccw. You cannot have options and whatever guns your basic model have are ignored.

Plauge Zombies are NOT Chaos Cultists. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with a slew of USR's and the inability to purchase options. Does the entry for Chaos Cultists include those USR's? Does the entry for Chaos Cultists prohibit the purchase of options?

Chaos Cultist =/= Chaos Cultist with USR's and restriction on purchains options.

I just blew up your argument with your own reasoning. Deal with it.

So cultists with infiltrator are not cultists?

Cultists are cultists, zombies are cultists by the rules.

I hope they FAQ this so we can bring zombie hordes.
It would be fun as hell to bring a Jonathan Coulton style of zombies in buisness suits.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So cultists with infiltrator are not cultists?

Weak strawman.

How about this,

What do you call Chaos Cultists with FnP/S&P/Fearless; that cannot choose any options, and are nominated to be Plague Zombies in an army containing Typhus?

[hint]The answer is IN the question[/hint]

As you said, Plague Zombies are Cultists Plus. Cultists Plus =/= Chaos Cultists

Strawman? You apply a rule to a squad and change their loadout does that change the squad's name? Cultists plus in the same way that giving any unit a usr or additional rules/options by way of an HQ or special rule is unit plus.

I call them plague zombies but Plague zombies are defined page 61 as Chaos cultists. In the same line as being defined as cultists they are also not allowed to have options.

Basic reading shows you the answer.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Plauge Zombies are NOT Chaos Cultists. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with a slew of USR's and the inability to purchase options. Does the entry for Chaos Cultists include those USR's? Does the entry for Chaos Cultists prohibit the purchase of options?

Chaos Cultist =/= Chaos Cultist with USR's and restriction on purchains options.

I just blew up your argument with your own reasoning. Deal with it.

As per page 61 of the codex "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists"

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Strawman? You apply a rule to a squad and change their loadout does that change the squad's name? Cultists plus in the same way that giving any unit a usr or additional rules/options by way of an HQ or special rule is unit plus.

I call them plague zombies but Plague zombies are defined page 61 as Chaos cultists. In the same line as being defined as cultists they are also not allowed to have options.

Basic reading shows you the answer.

So the Chaos Cultist entry in the codex tells you that Chaos Cultists have Feel No Pain, Slow & Purposeful, Fearless, and cannot purchase options? Oh wait, that bit of basic reading is under the PLAGUE ZOMBIES entry.

The Chaos Cultist entry in the codex has a whole slew of options, including increasing the unit size to 35. And when the army includes Typhus, ANY Chaos Cultist unit can be nominated to be Plague Zombies. Once nominated, THAT unit of Plague Zombies aka Chaos Cultists with FnP, S&P, and Fearless are unable to purchase options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Angryface wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Plauge Zombies are NOT Chaos Cultists. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists with a slew of USR's and the inability to purchase options. Does the entry for Chaos Cultists include those USR's? Does the entry for Chaos Cultists prohibit the purchase of options?

Chaos Cultist =/= Chaos Cultist with USR's and restriction on purchains options.

I just blew up your argument with your own reasoning. Deal with it.

As per page 61 of the codex "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists"

Way to half-quote the rule and leave out all the additional rules that differentiates Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies from Chaos Cultists.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Way to half-quote the rule and leave out all the additional rules that differentiates Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies from Chaos Cultists.

I quoted the relevant part. You are trying to say that a Box Tortoise is different from a Box Turtle, because the name is different. Adding USR's to a unit does not make it a different unit. If I take a SM HQ that replaces chapter tactics with a USR are tactical squads nor longer tactical squads?

Angryface wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Way to half-quote the rule and leave out all the additional rules that differentiates Chaos Cultists that are Plague Zombies from Chaos Cultists.

I quoted the relevant part. You are trying to say that a Box Tortoise is different from a Box Turtle, because the name is different. Adding USR's to a unit does not make it a different unit. If I take a SM HQ that replaces chapter tactics with a USR are tactical squads nor longer tactical squads?

Do we need to go down a checklist? Alright then:

Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have FnP? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have S&P? No.
Are Chaos Cultist Fearless? No.
Are Chaos Cultist prohibited from purchasing options? No.

So once again, where do you find all those things? The entry for Plague Zombies.

Prior to nominating a unit of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.

RAW adhered to and followed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yep, a group of cultists can be nominated to be zombies, gain all the buffs and cannot purchase any options.

RAW that means that anything in the options of chaos cultists is not allowed. That includes adding members to the squad.

RAI is whatever GW were thinking, I don't claim to know it.

You nominate them as zombies after list building, if you wish. There is no requirement to nominate at a specific point, not in the rules in the book.

Nowhere in the codex is that stated.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Do we need to go down a checklist? Alright then:

Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have FnP? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have S&P? No.
Are Chaos Cultist Fearless? No.
Are Chaos Cultist prohibited from purchasing options? No.

So once again, where do you find all those things? The entry for Plague Zombies.

Wrong, I find it in the special rules for Typhus.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Prior to nominating a unit of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.

RAW adhered to and followed.

The same logic is as to why there can be a unit of 35.
Prior to nominating, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.
Purchase 25 more cultists.
Nominate.
After they have been nominated, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.

Angryface wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Do we need to go down a checklist? Alright then:

Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have FnP? No.
Does the entry for Chaos Cultist have S&P? No.
Are Chaos Cultist Fearless? No.
Are Chaos Cultist prohibited from purchasing options? No.

So once again, where do you find all those things? The entry for Plague Zombies.

Wrong, I find it in the special rules for Typhus.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Prior to nominating a unit of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.

After they have been nominated as Plague Zombies, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.

RAW adhered to and followed.

The same logic is as to why there can be a unit of 35.
Prior to nominating, do they have the above rules and restrictions? No.
Purchase 25 more cultists.
Nominate.
After they have been nominated, did they as Plague Zombies choose and purchase the option to increase the unit size? No.

Well one of Typhus's special rules, but under a Plague Zombies heading more or less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other can of worms that using the "nominate" mechanic is that when you build your army list, you build it with Chaos Cultists. You then choose to nominate a Chaos Cultist unit to be Plague Zombies with no defined time given. So as I mentioned,

I could show up at a tournament with Typhus, 3 full squads of Chaos Cultists, and 3 squads of PM. For my first game I could nominate 1, 2, or 3 squads of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies depending on mission and opponent. The next game I could then nominate 1, 2, or 3 squads of Chaos Cultists as Plague Zombies depending on the second mission and/or opponent.

What this boils down to, it is not as clear as some people try to make it out to be, and needs to be FAQ'd. Additionally they need to clarify, and hopefully codify the nominate mechanic.

Angryface wrote:
What this boils down to, it is not as clear as some people try to make it out to be, and needs to be FAQ'd. Additionally they need to clarify, and hopefully codify the nominate mechanic.

Most probably errata us to add in the word "weapon" between "no" and "options".

Seriously. Epic brainfart by kelly's trained typing chimp, or a rushjob by the editor when compressing the cultist entry, ie not letting the upgrade with x additional cultists for y points each, be written above rhe options.

Not having the book yet though, so where is the upgrade with x members stated in other unit entries?

My math might be off aswell, but IF this actually turns out to be GWs intention, to have max 10 zombies in a squad, wouldn't that just make them way worse, (slower, less durable, unable to shoot) than a 35 strong squad of cultists with MoN?

This is wishlisting, but I REALLY hope they just errata as stated above, and lets zombies be marked by our favourite grandfather. Heck, isn't being turned into a zombie a way of getting marked by nurgle?

Ah well. RAW stands untill FAQed/erratad. Thank papa nurgle I'm not attending a tourney before then, and our group houseruled it unanimosly that I could get 35zombies for our cinematic beer & pretzells games, but no marks, 'till the FAQ hits.

I can't believe this has gone on for 6 pages.

Where are you finding rules for order of operation for army building? They don't exist. Any order of operations implied are comletely made up. Granted, they are based on logical assumptions, but they're still assumptions.

So with the rules we know as they exist, creating an army is 1 step. There are no substeps. So all rules for creating an army apply prior to finishing it. This makes Typhus' rule apply to the cultists and makes purchasing more of them illegal as they are options.

As for RAI being hordes of zombies? Let's think about this. The best thing to kill a plague zombie would be S6 AP6 or better weapons. The best army at this would be Eldar. We'll take the best senario. 3 squads of 2 warwalkers with 2 farseers w/ guide. This provides 24 S6 shots for each walked, 72 shots total. 2/3 of these shots are TL.

TL shots per squad:
24 BS3 = 12 hits
reroll 6 BS 3 = 6 hits
18 hits total
2s to wound = 15 wounds
2 squads = 30 wounds

Non-TL shots
24 BS3 = 12 hits
2s to wound = 8 wounds
8 + 30 wounds = 38 wounds.

Conclusion: Kills 1 squad a turn. This doesn't even take into account cover.

Other strong shooting squads w/out S6
20 strong noise marines w/ 19 sonic blasters.
For fun let's add in the +1S psykic power
57 S5 BS4 shots 2s to wound ignore cover
38 hits
31.3 wounds

Conclusion: Can't kill a squad. This does come with the benefit of only being 1 squad of shooting. At this point you can bring it down in CC and up to 2 squads can be shreded like this. Still can have 4 more.

Someone correct me if you'd like, but I can't find any squad that does more damage at range than this.

Overall, I'd say any all-comers list would be pretty hard pressed to kill 210 of these guys. And that's only 900 points. There's plenty of room for other units that can hammer.

This says to me that 10 cultists is in fact RAI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm sorry, I didn't even add in FNP for the noise marine. That's 20.87 dead.... not enough.

At least Kelly didnt make the mistake of calling the plague zombies, followers of nurgle, then we would be arguing about whether itll count in tally of pestilence.... but if he did I could definatly see hampering down that unit size...

I don't see anything OP about large squads of zombies. Necrons can scarab farm and Tyranids can poop gaunts - you're not paying points for these other than the Spyders and Tervigons which is typically offset by the sheer amounts they both have the potential to create.

I'm fairly certain this will be covered when the errata is released.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yep, a group of cultists can be nominated to be zombies, gain all the buffs and cannot purchase any options.

RAW that means that anything in the options of chaos cultists is not allowed. That includes adding members to the squad.

RAI is whatever GW were thinking, I don't claim to know it.

You nominate them as zombies after list building, if you wish. There is no requirement to nominate at a specific point, not in the rules in the book.

Nowhere in the codex is that stated.

Given my contention is that when you nomniate isnt stated, this means you are claiming that it is stated. So, quote showing when you nominate

 Sothas wrote:
Where are you finding rules for order of operation for army building? They don't exist. Any order of operations implied are comletely made up. Granted, they are based on logical assumptions, but they're still assumptions.

So with the rules we know as they exist, creating an army is 1 step. There are no substeps.

That's obviously wrong. Building an army is done in several sub-steps which are often order dependent, e.g. you buy options after purchasing the cultist unit. The same is true for zombie nomination, as that clearly happens after having purchased the cultist unit.

Bring on the zombie hordes! I got my PC's ready to rock!

Minx wrote:

 Sothas wrote:
Where are you finding rules for order of operation for army building? They don't exist. Any order of operations implied are comletely made up. Granted, they are based on logical assumptions, but they're still assumptions.

So with the rules we know as they exist, creating an army is 1 step. There are no substeps.

That's obviously wrong. Building an army is done in several sub-steps which are often order dependent, e.g. you buy options after purchasing the cultist unit. The same is true for zombie nomination, as that clearly happens after having purchased the cultist unit.

Building an army consists of trying to stuff as much units into the points available. You judggle it around, if there is any order of operations it's this.
1. Choose army.
2. Choose points maximum.
3. Play around with selections to max min everything.
4. Figure out what to do with the last 10 or less points and rebalance accordingly.
5. Have army list.

There is no order of operations when it comes to effects on the foc or units. They just are. You don't put 3 WG packs in the elites slot and 6GH in the troops slots and then take Grimnar cos then you have 9 troops. A list must be internally consistent with it's rules and the special rules that it includes. You cannot have a list that breaks the rules.

Now if nomination takes place during list building there is no question that it is a 10 man squad of cultists that become zombies. But Nos is right that it isn't spelled out when that happens, it is most likely to be decided to be during list creation for tournaments until the faq or errata comes out. But that being said, a unit of cultists with no options is still a ten man squad.


Actually looking over the rules, I think though this is more inferred than explicit, that since the cultists cannot purchase options when zombified that it must be done during the list building. Otherwise the "cannot purchase options" has no meaning, the nomination of a unit at the start of a game excludes the ability to take options. The only time a unit takes options is while writing the list, ergo the nomination of zombies or not happens then.