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I know there's a couple threads on the ChaosSM book, going, but this thread's focus is on the codex creep from BA/SW through DE, Necrons and GK. And now the apparent halt of said "Codex Creep."

After a read through, and more looking and list making, I didn't pick up on anything in the New Kellydex that appeared to be anything as awesome as, say, TWC, Mephiston, Imotekh's Lightning, Telsa guns, Purifiers, Venom (spam) and the other unit/combos that we typically bitch about being over powered or broken.

It seems as though Kellydex is just a 6e update. Here and there, points have been reduced, an Ass-Can added back in to Oblit arsenals, etc. Flier rules included. Cultists. A couple AP3 toys for Noise Ms. FnP for them, too. Meh. Nothing to make me drool.

Has the Codex creep taken a pause? Has anyone spotted something uber, killy-kewl, that I missed?

the first codex rarely is too uber. Really makes me hate playing O&G in fantasy as they are almost always first and underpowered.

13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.

chaos spawn are auto takes, they are SFG at 30 points. They are faster and better than ogryns and grotests for less points and fearless

There looks to be some fun combos. Take nurgle daemons of chaos as primary detach with Epidemius and a ton of plague bearers/DPs with MoN. Then as your allied detachment take Typhus with a blob of cultists. Use your destroyer hive on your cultists turn 1 and start racking up the tally. Seems pretty fun and for a themed army could work pretty well.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
There looks to be some fun combos. Take nurgle daemons of chaos as primary detach with Epidemius and a ton of plague bearers/DPs with MoN. Then as your allied detachment take Typhus with a blob of cultists. Use your destroyer hive on your cultists turn 1 and start racking up the tally. Seems pretty fun and for a themed army could work pretty well.

Not legal. Hive can only be used on an init step which requires him to be in combat.

Dang, you're right. Still, throw him in with cultists and get him into assault I suppose. You could care less about killing your own dudes in cc, in this case.

13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.

Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.

Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.

You should fear Sisters of Battle and I suspect you'll learn to fear 13 point marines soon enough

My conscripts don't fear bolters. Their mates did, but what did they know, they were in the first 3 waves. The fourth wave will handle the bolters just fine.

If you guys don't mind a re-direct away from the MMA of SoB vs. Conscripts ...

Anything besides the 'wanna-be' Deffrolla show up in the new book that is making you salivate?

... and would those conscripts be *female* ? Bow-chicka bow bow

 Stoffer wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.

Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.

You should fear Sisters of Battle and I suspect you'll learn to fear 13 point marines soon enough

sisters are 13 points a model too. CSM can have 2 combat weapons, str, t and init 4 for 13 points. add in hatred SM for 1 point and you will learn to fear them. 20 csm with long war are 280 points. on the charge they will put 23 wounds on any Meq or Teq before saves. 7.5 or 3.8 after saves. Still kinda scary.

Nothing broken, hell I'm having a hard time thinking of even decent combo's (the codex pretty much seems bland as oatmeal). One potentially killer combo against low save horde armies would be Vindicators with havoc launchers and Warpflame Gargoyles, it gives the demolisher cannon soulblaze (even though the rule it self kinda sucks).

 Exergy wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.

Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.

You should fear Sisters of Battle and I suspect you'll learn to fear 13 point marines soon enough

sisters are 13 points a model too. CSM can have 2 combat weapons, str, t and init 4 for 13 points. add in hatred SM for 1 point and you will learn to fear them. 20 csm with long war are 280 points. on the charge they will put 23 wounds on any Meq or Teq before saves. 7.5 or 3.8 after saves. Still kinda scary.

Yep. Also, 6th is all about putting troops on the table and CSM will put a lot of scoring bodies on the table cheaply. You will put a lot of cheap troops on the table, freeing points up for all kinds of other fun units.
'

 Stoffer wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.

Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.

You should fear Sisters of Battle and I suspect you'll learn to fear 13 point marines soon enough

sisters are 13 points a model too. CSM can have 2 combat weapons, str, t and init 4 for 13 points. add in hatred SM for 1 point and you will learn to fear them. 20 csm with long war are 280 points. on the charge they will put 23 wounds on any Meq or Teq before saves. 7.5 or 3.8 after saves. Still kinda scary.

Yep. Also, 6th is all about putting troops on the table and CSM will put a lot of scoring bodies on the table cheaply. You will put a lot of cheap troops on the table, freeing points up for all kinds of other fun units.
'

adding in that their home objective is probably camped by 50 points of cuiltists that will take more than pot shots to dislodge they will have more boddies to through at you in the midrange game.

Do we have to quote the quote that quoted the quote that quote?


also, no one "fears" bolters <_< they fear/respect the platform on them if the platform is good. like GH.

I'm glad for the lack of cheese, but sad about its presence in other 'dex's tbh.

I think there's cheese against space marine armies... taking Abaddon with black crusader you get preferred enemy space marines in a large 12" bubble, and take all shooty things, 2 or three forgefiends with hades autocannon, 1 or two helldrakes with hades, spam chosen w/plasmaguns or sprinkle in some oblits, and noise marines. And take a Warpsmith to repair the daemon engines and weaken any ruins that people might try to hide from the shooting in. Also, spamming the Hades increases your chances that you get some pinning tests go off, it's also a good combo against hordes and light armor.

@Exergy, Stoffer.

I kindly ask, again, could ya drop the thread hijacking and either stick to discussing for a power combo from the new book or take your unrelated subject to another place?


@Meade
I'm guessing that there a few incidentals of 6e 'Special Rule' buffs that click in, but nothing fantastic.

@Jlkallah
Quotes. Yer totally right.

Brothererekose wrote:

@Meade
I'm guessing that there a few incidentals of 6e 'Special Rule' buffs that click in, but nothing fantastic.

Well, the preferred enemy thing is very attractive and so is veterans of the long war. Those two combined give the army a significant buff against anything space marine, which is a large majority of what's out there.

But it's not fantastic, no. I doubt that if you compare this codex to GK, there will be any units as cheap and good as in that codex. I think what you have is army wide, most things went from 'terrible' to 'not that bad'. There are some units that rocked even in the last codex, like Abaddon, or Oblits, that got a bit better but the main difference now is, the rest of the codex is usable and they won't have to pull everyone elses weight. I think that now the codex is comparable to something like Blood Angels.

The randomness keeps the codex from being uber but on the other hand, but I think a smart general could work with it. For example if you design your army around those charts, so that no matter what happens you have some benefit or combo you can do. Then you have the advantage where your enemy has no way to predict what your capabilities are from turn to turn.

I think the real power gamer combos, like the rest of sixth, will probably involve some allies though. I'm more or less happy that on it's own, this codex won't be seen as a cheesy codex, and it's fun, so people will want to play against it. But at least it won't be so terrible that it just gets stomped.

Cheese before the dex: Epidemius shenanigans.

Cheese after dex: Epidemius shenanigans.

So, not a lot of change. The good stuff for chaos is mostly focused on very crowded FOC slots that keeps you from really capitalizing on their strengths.

A bit of possible cheese could be twin flamer dragons and twin Nurgle Oblits. Oblits get two turns of cracking transports before dragons come in and murder the contents.

A pair of Dirge-caster rhinos escorting your Land Raider up along the board are also not a bad idea. If even one is still alive when you get there your heavies can pop out of the Raider and assault facing no overwatch. You can even move flat-out with the rhino before the assault phase to make sure the no-overwatch bubble is there.

Helldrakes with the flamer are game breaking. There's your cheese.

Honstely I think Chaos Spawn are the cheese in the codex.
450 points for 45 T5 wounds that move as beasts and are fearless.

Oblits are worthless without fearless. Nurgle mark and 2+ save won't help them vs sniper weapons, and now they are a failed pinning test from useless.

Votlw is better than most people give it credit for. Against meq which is the meta votlw increases cc damage by 50% for 1 point per model on csm.

The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.

 Exergy wrote:
Honstely I think Chaos Spawn are the cheese in the codex.
450 points for 45 T5 wounds that move as beasts and are fearless.

I agree, this is the best unit in the dex IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Helldrakes with the flamer are game breaking. There's your cheese.

Hardly, don't forget it needs LoS to allocate wounds, and it will be nerfed like the DR for being hull mounted. This means a clever opponent will hide as many bodies as he can from LoS if he knows it's arriving. I think the dragon is trash personally, it loses out to every flier currently out there. It needs a money shot and a half to gain it's points back before it gets blown out of the air.

Hardly, don't forget it needs LoS to allocate wounds, and it will be nerfed like the DR for being hull mounted. This means a clever opponent will hide as many bodies as he can from LoS if he knows it's arriving. I think the dragon is trash personally, it loses out to every flier currently out there. It needs a money shot and a half to gain it's points back before it gets blown out of the air.

Line of Sight is pretty easy to get on a unit that moves 36" and sits 6" in the air. There's no "clever" way to hide from it except in a transport.

And blown out of the air? Who, besides Imperial Guard is blowing AV 12, Invulnerable save, 3 HP, regenerating fliers out of the air?

Helldrakes essentially get to kill any 5 models that don't have multiple wounds, a 2+ armor save, or a very good invulnerable save, from the turn they arrive and then every turn until the end of the game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Hardly, don't forget it needs LoS to allocate wounds, and it will be nerfed like the DR for being hull mounted. This means a clever opponent will hide as many bodies as he can from LoS if he knows it's arriving. I think the dragon is trash personally, it loses out to every flier currently out there. It needs a money shot and a half to gain it's points back before it gets blown out of the air.

Line of Sight is pretty easy to get on a unit that moves 36" and sits 6" in the air. There's no "clever" way to hide from it except in a transport.

And blown out of the air? Who, besides Imperial Guard is blowing AV 12, Invulnerable save, 3 HP, regenerating fliers out of the air?

Helldrakes essentially get to kill any 5 models that don't have multiple wounds, a 2+ armor save, or a very good invulnerable save, from the turn they arrive and then every turn until the end of the game.

Well said. Bought my first one yesterday and look forward to using it to fry some things.

Battle Sisters are 12pts each for what it's worth.

And Bolters are plenty scary for T3 and AV10 (doubly so now you get glanced to death).

A balanced codex is good at the end of the day, but I'm sure someone will figure something ridiculous out.

Personally, I'ma pick up a pair of Forgefiends for 16 Str8 shotty goodness.

So CSM that buy the CCW are cheaper GHs without Counter Attack. Seems like a good troops choice to me.

The only thing better then that is Plague Marines.

Brothererekose wrote:
Has the Codex creep taken a pause? Has anyone spotted something uber, killy-kewl, that I missed?

Daemons as allies. Flamers and screamers are so good they are a nice boost to everyone.

Havocs are 115 points for 4 AC is very nice. Buy 2 of them, stick em in a bastion with a quad gun, and for just over 350 points you are bringing 20 STR 7 shots.

Another is to MoN most of your CSM (like those previously mentioned havocs) and use Epdi to rack up a killer tally. Now you can have awesome plaugebearers or a 3++ FNP.for plague marines.

Don't forget MoN bikes for 26 points each. T6 bikes means STR 4 bounces off -- making them a good assault unit. Stick a lord for extra beatstick.
Or you can bring spawn if you can either make them from scrach or are willing to fork out $41.50 for 2. Give them MoN to make them hard to hurt with bolter fire.

I'd say make the spawn out of Dryad kits would be simplest. (Potentially combined with some other kits, like ogres, certain daemons, or whatever gribbly things are floating about in your bitz box.)

Really must actually read my Chaos book through...

I'm really expecting the new dragons and dinobots to be cheese once people get to play with them and find the best combos. I think people are overlooking the daemonforge ability and those invul saves, IWND are great. Odds are that one of those things works right in the game.

The dragon flamer is a real killer. Pair it up with some deepstriking daemons with pavane, to get the whole squad in formation.. and maybe a bonus vehicle. Against other flyers it is more resilient than they are, but sadly getting off ~2 S8 shots isn't scary for other AV12 fliers. But being able to re-roll those pens, even once per game, can make a difference in a dogfight.