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 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Fortunatly Hatred: Space Marines applies to 75% of your opponents and half of all codices

It applies to Space Wolves, BAs, DAs, Vanilla marines, Chaos Space Marines, and GKs.

Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines (pg 28)

apparently not.

DE are not Eldar so at least there is consistency.

Also remember it is units from those codexes, so even vehicles and acolytes still count.

Puscifer wrote:
Seems to me that an army can be made out of a host of T5/T6 guys. That's every unit at T5/T6 except maybe Cultists/Zombies.

This is quite a nasty army to face as they would just be tanking all game, being incredibly hard to shift and would do an ok job at whittling down any force that they came across.

I had a look into this and it seems strong.

Plasma vs Marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Plasma vs T5 marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Plasma vs grot- wounds on 2+, no armor save

Battlecannon vs Marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Battlecannon vs T5 marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Battlecannon vs grot- wounds on 2+, no armor save


Sometimes, mo' bodies is better than tougher bodies

Yes, but you can only take so much Plasma and so many Battlecannons.

True, although tougher bodies with FNP that are getting cover from disposable zombies who also have FNP is pretty solid.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but you can only take so much Plasma and so many Battlecannons.

Oh I agree, some armies can pack alot, and some can pack not as many, but my point still stands. Things that are very good at killing marines tend to not care too much about T4/5.

 Omegus wrote:
Without eternal warrior, that's not really cheese.

He's T5, which does limit the amount of stuff that can ID him a fair bit, though. And he can hide in a unit for sweet LoS protection.

I think mounts in general are very viable in this book.

you can make the demon very cheese like much like edam

here we go

Deamon Prince UNDIVIDED 145
3 Mastery 75
Wings 40
Power Armor 20
Gift of mutation 10
Murder Sword 35

Total 325

Roll powers on biomancy very good chance of getting iron arm, endurance and enfeeble

kelewan wrote:
you can make the demon very cheese like much like edam

here we go

Deamon Prince UNDIVIDED 145
3 Mastery 75
Wings 40
Power Armor 20
Gift of mutation 10
Murder Sword 35

Total 325

Roll powers on biomancy very good chance of getting iron arm, endurance and enfeeble

You must pick a god for your DP, and you'll only be able to take at most 2 Biomancy powers.

There's no cheddar in the new CSM besides taking a demon prince with the black mace, but even then a simply str 10 downs the fool, so no one is worrying.

I just wish hellbrutes didn't suck as much as they do. Currently they are the new spawn.

 Lansirill wrote:

kelewan wrote:
you can make the demon very cheese like much like edam

here we go

Deamon Prince UNDIVIDED 145
3 Mastery 75
Wings 40
Power Armor 20
Gift of mutation 10
Murder Sword 35

Total 325

Roll powers on biomancy very good chance of getting iron arm, endurance and enfeeble

You must pick a god for your DP, and you'll only be able to take at most 2 Biomancy powers.

Ohyea nvm thats pissed on my bonfire

The fact that there AREN'T any cheesy units in this dex is a sign that it is a GOOD codex. The game is a GAME and should be balanced. If every codex was full of OP units then there would be no point in using anything other than them. This seems like one of the most balanced books in a while and I think that is a good thing.

I agree that some units are a little less potent than they should be and that is unfortunate. Others are completely balanced though, and that is good. The fact that your marines AREN'T grey hunters is good. Bc grey hunters are better for no reason. That isn't fun or balanced, it's frustrating.

I am not a Chaos player but my friend plays chaos and I do not want to be discouraged from playing him bc his book is OP. He already plays gaurd and they are VERY good and are a tough army to play day after day. I play Dark Angels and they are by no means OP but they are pretty decent. I hope that my new update is on par with this book. Some units will be meh and others will be good. A book should strive for balance, not cheese.

And if all those CSM players can use their balanced army to beat or even compete with a cheesy list, that is rewarding. This book is far from unplayable.

-VardenV2

Speaking of psychic powers: I'm really leaning towards the sorcerer for my cheap HQ choice. You don't have to spend a lot of points to give him an invuln save and more biomancy abilities than you can shake a stick at. I'm thinking of using him instead of the lord.

 Stoffer wrote:
Speaking of psychic powers: I'm really leaning towards the sorcerer for my cheap HQ choice. You don't have to spend a lot of points to give him an invuln save and more biomancy abilities than you can shake a stick at. I'm thinking of using him instead of the lord.

My issue with the sorcerer is that he doesn't open any cult troops for scoring unless you go Tzeentch, and Nurgle and Slaanesh sorcerers seem to be the most fun. I have a fair bit of cult troops about and using them as plain elites just doesn't cut it.

Pointswise I cant see needing two different cult units as troops. However a way around this(although expensive) is take typhus who has to take nurgle powers(and is a level two psyker) and then a lord of the other mark you wanted.

However you can always go non psyker and take two cults as your troop choices. I was looking into nurgle and slannesh myself.

Woah, who said there was no cheese?

Abaddon is possibly the best special character there is. He's way undercosted for what he does.

A) he has all the marks. You can field all the cult troops as troops.
B) his weapons tear everything apart.
C) stick him in a unit of Terminators and deep strike them in for lulz.

We have a campaign going on atm and one guy has taken Abaddon and a fair amount of Terminators as a Deathstar. Not sure what mark he gave them, but he hasn't lost a game yet.

Puscifer wrote:
Woah, who said there was no cheese?

Abaddon is possibly the best special character there is. He's way undercosted for what he does.

A) he has all the marks. You can field all the cult troops as troops.
B) his weapons tear everything apart.
C) stick him in a unit of Terminators and deep strike them in for lulz.

We have a campaign going on atm and one guy has taken Abaddon and a fair amount of Terminators as a Deathstar. Not sure what mark he gave them, but he hasn't lost a game yet.

Who ever this person is, he is cheating. Since marks of khorne does not makes berserkers troops nor does nurgle make plague marines troops.

Only chaos lord with marks make them troops abbaddon does not. He only makes chosen troops

Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.

At least if I read it correctly anyway.

 Krellnus wrote:
Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.

At least if I read it correctly anyway.

nice catch, looks like it is any kills. shooting would count, but you would have to separate out the champion of chaos's shots and he would have to do at least one wound.

 Exergy wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.

At least if I read it correctly anyway.

nice catch, looks like it is any kills. shooting would count, but you would have to separate out the champion of chaos's shots and he would have to do at least one wound.

Might be worth it if you can take a combi-weapon or a bolter get that precision shot and place it on a Sgt . Low odds but gravy if it works.

Glocknall wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.

At least if I read it correctly anyway.

nice catch, looks like it is any kills. shooting would count, but you would have to separate out the champion of chaos's shots and he would have to do at least one wound.

Might be worth it if you can take a combi-weapon or a bolter get that precision shot and place it on a Sgt . Low odds but gravy if it works.

Im thinking more for those single characters and MCs that are out there. It might be worth trying to ping them to death.
IE mephiston has only a few wounds left. Shot him to gak with a combi plasma on a character + the squad he is in with another plasma and some bolters. If the combiplasma wounds AND if mephy dies, you roll on the boon table.

Arhiman got a roll on the boon table because he killed my Dreadknight with a psychic power. He rolled 1 away from becoming a spawn

Yeah that table really raises the pucker level to 10

It can be quite hilarious when a cultist champion becomes a Daemon Prince

 Grey Templar wrote:
It can be quite hilarious when a cultist champion becomes a Daemon Prince

it could be, but how likely is a cultist champion to kill a character? I cant think of any character that is weaker. Maybe a DE beastmaster?

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It can be quite hilarious when a cultist champion becomes a Daemon Prince

it could be, but how likely is a cultist champion to kill a character? I cant think of any character that is weaker. Maybe a DE beastmaster?

He could get a sneaky kill on an enemy Power Fist Sergeant.

IG sergeants, Tau Shas-ui, and Eldar Warlocks. And the above sneaky kill.

Invisibility on a unit of cultists can (and has done) wonders.

Puscifer wrote:
Woah, who said there was no cheese?

Abaddon is possibly the best special character there is. He's way undercosted for what he does.

A) he has all the marks. You can field all the cult troops as troops.
B) his weapons tear everything apart.
C) stick him in a unit of Terminators and deep strike them in for lulz.

We have a campaign going on atm and one guy has taken Abaddon and a fair amount of Terminators as a Deathstar. Not sure what mark he gave them, but he hasn't lost a game yet.

Abaddon does not allow you to take Cult elites as troops. Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully). And chosen are meh. However, he can make an escort squad fearless and is one of the strongest close combat characters in the game. I'll typically only lose to ubercheese like Swarmstar or multiple vindicare. His preferred enemy bubble is also pretty awesome against space marines.

Deathguard lists go cheesier. Heldrakes are strong and w/ pavane and decent shooty might be very cheesy. T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good. someone mentioned a DPI with the blackmace.... not sure if he can take that but if so that's pretty killy.

I played a game against night lords yesterday, he infiltrated untis of raptors with flamers and meltas, and jumped at me turn 1 in a nasty alpha strike.

I'd say they were pretttyyyy good