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rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.

A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?

I'm not bellyaching, please stop assuming there's negative emotions to what I'm saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:
So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?

No, but thanks for assuming that.
First I'd point out that's against the RAW.
Then, since I normally only get the chance to play at tournaments lately, I'd get the TO to make a call and live with whatever he decided.

To answer your question, no. Abby does not have a different mark. He has several.

At any rate, I took this debate over to the thread already started in the YMDC forum, see ya there.

So...what's all this talk of obliterators loosing fearless? They are daemons now, and doesn't the BRB say that daemons are fearless?

Nope, having the Daemon rule doesn't make you fearless. it gives you a 5+ ward, makes you cause Fear, and means you are screwed vs GKs.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nope, having the Daemon rule doesn't make you fearless. it gives you a 5+ ward, makes you cause Fear, and means you are screwed vs GKs.

Ahhhh ok. Thanks man.

Ive already seen some abaddon cheese with chosen and plasma. 5 units with 5 plasma each. However its cheesiness maybe offset by its risk. Possibly some horde cheese. since fantasy is all about hordes, its lookin like 40k will be also. Looks More like a GW cheese move to sell more models. But hey, I like the game, i like the models and every battle is voluntary. If some one is playin cheese then i dont play with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait i thought if you cause fear you are immune to other units that cause fear?

Unfortunately not... that's why units will have both Fear and Fearless in their profile (Chaos spawn do, I think). If Fear made them immune, they wouldn't need to list Fearless as well.

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Ive already seen some abaddon cheese with chosen and plasma. 5 units with 5 plasma each. However its cheesiness maybe offset by its risk. Possibly some horde cheese. since fantasy is all about hordes, its lookin like 40k will be also. Looks More like a GW cheese move to sell more models. But hey, I like the game, i like the models and every battle is voluntary. If some one is playin cheese then i dont play with them.

That's not cheesy though as it is as glass as a glass cannon can be. That's a lot of points gone into 25 power armoured bodies. Imperial Guard would be in hysterics.

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Wait i thought if you cause fear you are immune to other units that cause fear?

Yes, but being immune to Fear has nothing to do with Fearless.

Thanks...im still a noob to 40k

Edited by Mannahnin

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Ive already seen some abaddon cheese with chosen and plasma. 5 units with 5 plasma each. However its cheesiness maybe offset by its risk. Possibly some horde cheese. since fantasy is all about hordes, its lookin like 40k will be also. Looks More like a GW cheese move to sell more models. But hey, I like the game, i like the models and every battle is voluntary. If some one is playin cheese then i dont play with them.

That's a like saying bring fast mobile melta against landraider spam is cheese. It's gone to one extreme and thus has its hard counters.

 Jihallah wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Jihallah wrote:I think he was talking to Godless Mimicry, not you mate

Then you're not very good at following the conversation, no offense, as Kevlar was agreeing with me.

And your not very good at getting "out" of the conversation like you said your were, but your good at being an asshat

Actually nobody has been talking about the Abaddon issue in awhile now, especially not me, so yes, I did get out of that conversation, so again, not very good at following are you?

And I thought the asshat thing was funny at first, but then when I saw you actively digging up endless amounts of my old posts just to flame me, it wasn't funny anymore, and I will be taking it to the mods, as it is as blatant as flaming can get.

You forgot to correct him there... it's "you're", not "your."

I just played my first Game of 6th Ed. Chaos Space Marines, and this is pretty awesome Cheese:

175pts - Chaos Lord:
Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut Mount, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, Veterans of the Long War

He has the following Cheese: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, IC, Calvary, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, 4 Wounds, Toughness 5. Not to mention, he gets 7+1d6 s6 ap2 attacks on the charge, at initiative 5. I ran him with 12 Khorne Berserkers, from which he broke away to kill a Hellbrute and then a Squad of CSM. My opponent gave up turn 3 (a few things fell in my favor, Night Fighting, first turn, poor reserve rolls for him).

An interesting note for Challenges: They are a defensive power for large single MC's/Characters charging a unit. My Lord charges your squad, challenges, kills 1 guy. Ok, your turn, I wipe out the squad, consolidate, and rinse/repeat next turn. Very good for the likes of DP's, Mounted Lords, FMC's, etc.

 evildrspock wrote:
I just played my first Game of 6th Ed. Chaos Space Marines, and this is pretty awesome Cheese:

175pts - Chaos Lord:
Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut Mount, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, Veterans of the Long War

I wouldn't call it cheese, you just get what you pay for.

The Calvary mount is kind of unprecedentedly good, though, combined with the other upgrades. He singlehandedly kills lightly armored vehicles, almost any squad of infantry ... in style. I guess it's not Matt Ward cheese, if it was he'd kill one squad with a special rule before he gets to assault a 2nd one in the same turn, but still ... he's now an auto-include for any of my lists.

The new CSM dex is pretty good. I have no intentions to play them, but i'm looking forward to being curbstomped by them

 evildrspock wrote:
I just played my first Game of 6th Ed. Chaos Space Marines, and this is pretty awesome Cheese:

175pts - Chaos Lord:
Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut Mount, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, Veterans of the Long War

He has the following Cheese: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, IC, Calvary, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, 4 Wounds, Toughness 5. Not to mention, he gets 7+1d6 s6 ap2 attacks on the charge, at initiative 5. I ran him with 12 Khorne Berserkers, from which he broke away to kill a Hellbrute and then a Squad of CSM. My opponent gave up turn 3 (a few things fell in my favor, Night Fighting, first turn, poor reserve rolls for him).

An interesting note for Challenges: They are a defensive power for large single MC's/Characters charging a unit. My Lord charges your squad, challenges, kills 1 guy. Ok, your turn, I wipe out the squad, consolidate, and rinse/repeat next turn. Very good for the likes of DP's, Mounted Lords, FMC's, etc.

This Lord really looks scary. He has toughness 5 and cannot be instantly killed by an S8 pf attack, thanks to the new edition.

Also the addition of Fleet and +1 wound as well makes the Juggernaut a tough choice with a Bike, a worthwhile tradeoff IMO for Turboboosting. More reliable charge distances are pretty useful for an Assault build.

 evildrspock wrote:
Also the addition of Fleet and +1 wound as well makes the Juggernaut a tough choice with a Bike, a worthwhile tradeoff IMO for Turboboosting. More reliable charge distances are pretty useful for an Assault build.

It depends on if you want to run him solo (Juggernaut) or not (with a unit of Bikers). I plan to field a Lord on bike with MoS leading a Biker squad.

The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.

The thing is if you are running a Juggernaut Lord and Khorne Bikers, I think putting them together for the sake of a slower Turbo Boost is fine, as you're still super fast, have some powerful shooting, and devastating assault potential. Depending on model positioning some of the Bikers could probably still make a 12" Turbo Boost anyway, you just have to make sure a few stay bc to keep coherency with the Lord after he runs. I mean the average run is 4", and a Bike base is 2" long, so you only need 1 Biker to fall behind to keep the Lord in coherency. Not bad IMO. Of course for Slaanesh this becomes easier as the Steed gives an extra 3" on the run.

armis wrote:
The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.

Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.

That's true, but I don't see any cheesy short range firepower in the list, except the ridiculously fragile Abaddon Chosen list. GK will shoot way more than Chaos, while Necrons have any number of horribly cheesy shenanigans to pull on you, from 2+ rerollable saves to putting everything on fliers.

armis wrote:The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.

Only? There's Forgefiends, Obliterators, Havocs, Defilers, CSM Predators / Vindicators / Landraiders, heavy weapons on CSM squads, Heldrakes, hell, even Rhinos can be kitted out with a reasonable amount of firepower (a havoc + 2 combi-bolters). (There's probably more, this is just what I can remember off the top of my head.)

Personally, I'm going to be running 2 Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons, 2 Heldrakes with Hades Autocannons, a Land Raider or Defiler then as many Autocannons as I can fit elsewhere (I wonder if I can justify a 3rd Forgefiend and Heldrake in that list for an extra 12 shots....)
But this is mostly because I love giant gribblies (i.e. I have no interest in oblits, most marked troops, etc.)

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The thing is if you are running a Juggernaut Lord and Khorne Bikers, I think putting them together for the sake of a slower Turbo Boost is fine, as you're still super fast, have some powerful shooting, and devastating assault potential. Depending on model positioning some of the Bikers could probably still make a 12" Turbo Boost anyway, you just have to make sure a few stay bc to keep coherency with the Lord after he runs. I mean the average run is 4", and a Bike base is 2" long, so you only need 1 Biker to fall behind to keep the Lord in coherency. Not bad IMO. Of course for Slaanesh this becomes easier as the Steed gives an extra 3" on the run.

armis wrote:
The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.

Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.

I think the key with any Chaos list may turn out to be a blend of Shooting/CC, due to their challenge rules. You cannot resist challenges, so either you forget about arming your champions, or you prepare for it. The key is you can be decent in shooting, with strong versatility. Plus there are some decent close range shooting options; look at noise marines, look at 1k Sons, look at Chosen/Havocs with 5 Special Weapons ... You could tool up a decent shooty list without much problem. Especially as the Slaneesh Icon gives Feel No Pain, to help prevent casualties from standing and shooting.

I think there's some decent options here.

armis wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.

That's true, but I don't see any cheesy short range firepower in the list, except the ridiculously fragile Abaddon Chosen list. GK will shoot way more than Chaos, while Necrons have any number of horribly cheesy shenanigans to pull on you, from 2+ rerollable saves to putting everything on fliers.

A book doesn't have to be cheesy to be good though, and no matter what, Grey Knights and Necrons are going to look better than us. Build to compete with them, not to be them, that's how I play it.

And yes, I agree the full on Abby-Wing is too fragile, but a hybrid Abby-Win with him two Plasma blocks and then a normally balanced army built around it hurts Marine armies in the shooting phase a lot. If only Necrons and Guard would go away and stop being popular then

 evildrspock wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The thing is if you are running a Juggernaut Lord and Khorne Bikers, I think putting them together for the sake of a slower Turbo Boost is fine, as you're still super fast, have some powerful shooting, and devastating assault potential. Depending on model positioning some of the Bikers could probably still make a 12" Turbo Boost anyway, you just have to make sure a few stay bc to keep coherency with the Lord after he runs. I mean the average run is 4", and a Bike base is 2" long, so you only need 1 Biker to fall behind to keep the Lord in coherency. Not bad IMO. Of course for Slaanesh this becomes easier as the Steed gives an extra 3" on the run.

armis wrote:
The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.

Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.

I think the key with any Chaos list may turn out to be a blend of Shooting/CC, due to their challenge rules. You cannot resist challenges, so either you forget about arming your champions, or you prepare for it. The key is you can be decent in shooting, with strong versatility. Plus there are some decent close range shooting options; look at noise marines, look at 1k Sons, look at Chosen/Havocs with 5 Special Weapons ... You could tool up a decent shooty list without much problem. Especially as the Slaneesh Icon gives Feel No Pain, to help prevent casualties from standing and shooting.

I think there's some decent options here.

I couldn't agree more, though personally the only true assault element in my list is a big squad of Bikers with a Lord. I think they can handle anything that needs to be assaulted (Dirge Caster, yup ) but the bulk of my force is a shooty force with a lot of Bolters and Autocannons mostly, though it sports no less than 4 AP3 flamers of various sorts.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

armis wrote:
The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.

Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.

DE also dont have anything over 36" so while not exclusively midrange they are not long range. They do a lot of it at 18"

rigeld2 wrote:
A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?

Yes, three of them.

 Omegus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?

Yes, three of them.

I'm not sure if it makes enough of a difference, but the rules call for the comparison to be made the other way around:

Abby has all four marks.
Do Berzerkers have a dfifferent mark?

armis wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?

Yes, three of them.

I'm not sure if it makes enough of a difference, but the rules call for the comparison to be made the other way around:

Abby has all four marks.
Do Berzerkers have a dfifferent mark?

Abby has MoN, MoT and MoS. Do Berzerkers have a dfifferent mark?

Polecat wrote:

armis wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?

Yes, three of them.

I'm not sure if it makes enough of a difference, but the rules call for the comparison to be made the other way around:

Abby has all four marks.
Do Berzerkers have a dfifferent mark?

Abby has MoN, MoT and MoS. Do Berzerkers have a dfifferent mark?

That's just it, are we called to compare the marks one by one or as a group? I have no idea. Evidence suggests that as far as general word usage goes, the rule can be interpreted either way.

You guys wanna take the rules discussion to YMDC?