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Yea, this is getting out of hand.

Anyways


Doing some math, and please forgive me if I am wrong, I am rather tired, 15 CSM(with CCW or Bolter) with MoN, 2 plasmas, Power sword on Champ, Boon and VOTLW comes out at 325 points(I am not sold on the Fearless Icon). I don't know about you but I consider that a steal. 10 Plague Marines with 2 plasmas, Power weapon, gift of mutation and VOTLR is 305.

Now it all comes down to if you prefer quantity over quality. In a game where you want as many troops as possible, the CSM would be the better choice as they are almost as durable as PM but have 50% more models. Is FnP and poisoned attacks beat larger units? Of Course with Epidemius' tally PM becomes a no brainer as the FnP on a 3+ can more than make up for the increased price.

Also I do know that if the Plague Zombies get FAQ'd to be larger than 10 models, you will see a lot more Typhus lead armies with hordes of cheap 35 model units with FnP, Fear and Fearless. They will become undercosted for their ability to sit on an objective and shrug off most small arms fire and most CC attacks.

FnP, poisoned attacks, and awesome defensive grenades. Also, built-in fearless.

Hashulaman wrote:
Yea, this is getting out of hand.

Anyways


Doing some math, and please forgive me if I am wrong, I am rather tired, 15 CSM(with CCW or Bolter) with MoN, 2 plasmas, Power sword on Champ, Boon and VOTLW comes out at 325 points(I am not sold on the Fearless Icon). I don't know about you but I consider that a steal. 10 Plague Marines with 2 plasmas, Power weapon, gift of mutation and VOTLR is 305.

Now it all comes down to if you prefer quantity over quality. In a game where you want as many troops as possible, the CSM would be the better choice as they are almost as durable as PM but have 50% more models. Is FnP and poisoned attacks beat larger units? Of Course with Epidemius' tally PM becomes a no brainer as the FnP on a 3+ can more than make up for the increased price.

Also I do know that if the Plague Zombies get FAQ'd to be larger than 10 models, you will see a lot more Typhus lead armies with hordes of cheap 35 model units with FnP, Fear and Fearless. They will become undercosted for their ability to sit on an objective and shrug off most small arms fire and most CC attacks.

I assume you mean 225 points not 325 for the CSM.
fearless is good, and they dont have it. FNP is good and they dont have it. Posioned ccw are good and they dont have them. Blight grenades, ehh you get the idea. Plague marines are expensive, but they get a lot of stuff.

I do note some good things, the drake might be the best new unit to add to competitive lists.

 Omegus wrote:
FnP, poisoned attacks, and awesome defensive grenades. Also, built-in fearless.

And, 2 special weapons under 10 man units ftw? Their I3 also makes Champion selection of melee weapons (if any) easy.

 Exergy wrote:


I assume you mean 225 points not 325 for the CSM.
fearless is good, and they dont have it. FNP is good and they dont have it. Posioned ccw are good and they dont have them. Blight grenades, ehh you get the idea. Plague marines are expensive, but they get a lot of stuff.

You know what they say about assumptions.

15 CSM are 205 points bare.

I've been thinking about Chaos quite a bit over the last week. You guys have got some of the same thoughts that came to me in this thread.

What I'm not seeing here is anything on Allies.

What could we look to take advantage of?

IG -
More Autocannons and a Vendetta?

Daemons -
Flamers/Screamers? Pavane of Slaanesh?

What else do we have...

Orks and Drak Eldar i think, i don't have my brb with me.
Has anyone thought about Allies and what they can bring to the table?

 Omegus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


I assume you mean 225 points not 325 for the CSM.
fearless is good, and they dont have it. FNP is good and they dont have it. Posioned ccw are good and they dont have them. Blight grenades, ehh you get the idea. Plague marines are expensive, but they get a lot of stuff.

You know what they say about assumptions.

15 CSM are 205 points bare.

yeah i guess i cannot read...

 L0rdF1end wrote:
I've been thinking about Chaos quite a bit over the last week. You guys have got some of the same thoughts that came to me in this thread.

What I'm not seeing here is anything on Allies.

What could we look to take advantage of?

IG -
More Autocannons and a Vendetta?

Daemons -
Flamers/Screamers? Pavane of Slaanesh?

What else do we have...

Orks and Drak Eldar i think, i don't have my brb with me.
Has anyone thought about Allies and what they can bring to the table?

Allies for CSM:
-:: Chaos Space Marines ::-
Black Templars: Come the Apocalypse
Blood Angels: Come the Apocalypse
Chaos Daemons: Battle Brothers
Chaos Space Marines: N/A
Dark Angels: Come the Apocalypse
Dark Eldar: Desperate Allies
Eldar: Come the Apocalypse
Grey Knights: Come the Apocalypse
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience
Necrons: Allies of convenience
Orks: Allies of convenience
Sisters of Battle: Come the Apocalypse
Space Marines: Come the Apocalypse
Space Wolves: Come the Apocalypse
Tau Empire: Allies of convenience
Tyranids: Come the Apocalypse

 L0rdF1end wrote:
I've been thinking about Chaos quite a bit over the last week. You guys have got some of the same thoughts that came to me in this thread.

What I'm not seeing here is anything on Allies.

What could we look to take advantage of?

IG -
More Autocannons and a Vendetta?

Daemons -
Flamers/Screamers? Pavane of Slaanesh?

What else do we have...

Orks and Drak Eldar i think, i don't have my brb with me.
Has anyone thought about Allies and what they can bring to the table?

I'm running a 2k Black Legion army led by Abaddon in friendly games. It includes a unit of 4 flamers which come at the basement bargain price of 92 points. For a unit that can teleport & alpha strike high priority targets, and almost always kill them outright, it's a great unit.

I also run Masque with her triple-Pavane in combination with 2x2 Obliterators. MEq and Terminators, beware. She became instantly superior to all previous renditions of lash with the advent of Deny the Witch... because guess what? It's not a psychic power, so you don't get to deny squat. Just hit them on her nice BS 5 and group those suckaz up for the template / blast weapons. She also has a 3+ invul save which most people don't realize.


The cheesiest thing I've noticed in the codex so far is how broken it will be in conjunction with Tally of Pestilence / Epidemius. I have a 2k list that has every single unit (save one) with MoN, spends a lean 185 pts on Epi and a bodyguard of 5 plagues. It carries 3 full squads of plague marines, a dakka havoc squad, 2x2 oblits, heldrake, ML 3 sorcerer and a chaos lord in a bike squad with the Black Mace. Every champion has a Powermaul.

All of my troops will have Hatred (Space Marines) and reroll attacks in CC. They'll also gain Noxious Touch, and reroll wounds on anything T4 or lower.
They'll also be T5 with 3+ armor / 5+ FnP.. which then becomes 3+ FnP (stormshield save against anything that's not Str 10, gogo).

Aaannndd they'll have ignores-armor save bolters and CC attacks. Obliterators that can throw down Str 6 ignores armor assault cannons, or flamers. Troops that can wipe out entire units with rapid fire because they ignore armor. That perform better in CC than Assault Terminators.

Against anyone, this list would be mean. Against Space Marines through VotlW, it will be broken.

Funny, I've recently designed a very similar Nurgle list, except the bike squad was lead by a sorcerer with the brand (great way to kill lots of stuff quickly to get that count up), and Typhus held it down with a few units of zombies to act as chaff in the first few turns or hold home objectives, or even die in droves to the Destroyer Hive get the count up in a hurry.

The rest of the list is pretty much the same, except I have only 2 squads of plague marines and a unit of beasts with mon.

Why power mauls?

What is the point of the masque getting three shots with pavane exactly? She can't split fire right, so can only effect one target?

 Omegus wrote:
Funny, I've recently designed a very similar Nurgle list, except the bike squad was lead by a sorcerer with the brand (great way to kill lots of stuff quickly to get that count up), and Typhus held it down with a few units of zombies to act as chaff in the first few turns or hold home objectives, or even die in droves to the Destroyer Hive get the count up in a hurry.

The rest of the list is pretty much the same, except I have only 2 squads of plague marines and a unit of beasts with mon.

Why power mauls?

+2 STR, no I mod. After enough kills they'll be ignoring armor so the AP4 will cease to matter soon enough. So basically you'll be able to walk up to a HT & carve through it (assuming it doesn't have Bone Swords of course!)

And yes Kevlar, The Masque can split fire. If she can't then the last Daemons player I played against cheated me, lol.

And, back to the OP - WHY DO YOU WANT CHEESE? For years people have been complaining about power creep, SW, BA, IG & (more recently) GK & Newcrons. Now, we finally get something resembling a balanced codex (if quite bland in some area's unfortunately) & immediately people start looking for 'the cheeze pls'. Now, I'm not sure if the OP is asking this because they want this, or because they want to look out for it, or for some other reason, but my question is WHY? I'm thoroughly hoping that we can finally stop this outrageous out of control power creep that we've seen over the last 4 codecies (I leave out DE as they were actually pretty well balanced, but got a rough kick by 6th ed).

Unfortunately, I don't see our codex being on the extreme power level of GK or 'Crons, but thankfully GK took a (small) hit by 6th as well, but 'Crons will still be the top of the pile for some time - possibly for the better part of 6th ed depending. Will we be able to compete? Yes. Is our codex everything everyone wanted? No, but they never will be.

Lets leave the cheese where it's supposed to be - on sandwiches & pizza.

~Vryce

 Omegus wrote:
Funny, I've recently designed a very similar Nurgle list, except the bike squad was lead by a sorcerer with the brand (great way to kill lots of stuff quickly to get that count up), and Typhus held it down with a few units of zombies to act as chaff in the first few turns or hold home objectives, or even die in droves to the Destroyer Hive get the count up in a hurry.

The rest of the list is pretty much the same, except I have only 2 squads of plague marines and a unit of beasts with mon.

Why power mauls?

As Vryce mentioned, powermauls will become good and beasty once I hit 20 on the Tally and ignore armor. With Str 6 wielders at I3 that have 2+ poison, they reroll wounds against anything T6 and under.. which is going to be sick. I will win more than a few challenges.

Your comment is interesting, though. The Black Mace, cool as it seems, does seem like a fairly random (and expensive) piece of wargear. The Brand of Skalathrax may very well prove a more reliable and threatening weapon, especially with the mobility of a bikelord. Once the tally mounts it can even kill Terminators. Only problem is that it remains Str 4 throughout the game, so it won't wound quite as reliably. Hmm..

Allies for CSM:

Allies for CSM:
Chaos Daemons: Battle Brothers
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience
Necrons: Allies of convenience
Orks: Allies of convenience
Tau Empire: Allies of convenience

Chaos Daemons is the natural choice. But don't get overboard with expensive HQs.
IG can add variety to each army.
Necrons can supplement with flyers (Overlord w/ CCB, Night Scythe with Warriors, Doom Scythe).
Orks can increase the tactical flexibility (more dakka: Lootas, more cc: Nobs, more troops: Boyz).
Tau can provide decent fire support.

As good as the Tally is I wouldn't buy the models just yet. I fully expect it will be nerfed as soon as the next daemons codex comes out :(

 lunarman wrote:
As good as the Tally is I wouldn't buy the models just yet. I fully expect it will be nerfed as soon as the next daemons codex comes out :(

the next codex will undoubtably not have the tally at all. when is the next codex coming out?

Supposedly January.

Thing about the tally is all you have to do is kill Epidemius and it all stops. It also doesn't start until he is on the table, so if you get the wrong wave and reserve rolls fail you your whole army plan is out the window. And then there's the two Dreadknights which make the whole thing pointless

Seeing the mention of Necron allies above did give me a cool idea for a Dark Mechanicus army, with Dark Servitors in place of the Necrons.

40k Daemons in January?

I've seen Feb. (Mar for tau)
But ultimately - probably next year sometime.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Supposedly January.

Thing about the tally is all you have to do is kill Epidemius and it all stops. It also doesn't start until he is on the table, so if you get the wrong wave and reserve rolls fail you your whole army plan is out the window. And then there's the two Dreadknights which make the whole thing pointless .

He does for sure have problems and even if you pull it off with the above situations going your way you could easily loose track of the game plan for the mission you should be playing.
I think it makes a very nice fluff list but far from competative.

Allies I think is key for Chaos to be competative right now.
Make use of those cheap flamers and screamers or a Vendetta. Really depends on what you have in your core chaos build as to what you need to add in through allies.

Im going to be trying IG and Daemons for now. Its certainly nice to be able to filed slightly different support elements by using allies.
The Chaos codex alone just doesn't feel strong enough to compete alone against Daemons/Necrons.

L0rdF1end wrote:Allies I think is key for Chaos to be competative right now.
Make use of those cheap flamers and screamers or a Vendetta. Really depends on what you have in your core chaos build as to what you need to add in through allies.

I disagree entirely; it's not that simple. The thing about Chaos is there are a lot of diverse builds to compete with. Some of them need allies, others don't. In my Slaanesh and Black Legion lists I feel no need for allies (though the Pavane thing is something I will try for Slaanesh). Nurgle doesn't need them but gets better with them. Tzeentch absolutely needs them. Khorne just needs new base rules for the game. And of course if you are not playing to a theme you have to pick of it all.

The most cheese I can think of is camping Havocs behind/in an Aegis Defense Line or Bastion with a quad gun, giving them missile launchers(or autocannons) and the champion gift of mutation for the hope of extra BS or survivability and creating a 48" death zone. I'm waiting until then next daemon codex comes out but i'm thinking of running a list like this:

1500:

The Masque (100)
The Blue Scribes (130)
6 Fiends (180)
5 Flamers (185)
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm (160)
6 Pink Horrors, upgrade 1 to Changeling (107)
6 daemonettes w/ icon (103)
965

Allies:

Lucius (165)
10 Cultists (50)
10 Cultists (50)
6 Havocs, 4 w/ missile launchers and GoM (168)
433

Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun
100

1750:
Add Heldrake (170)
Add 6 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters (130)
Take away one cultists (-50)

1850:
Noise Marines to 10 w/ Blast Master and Doom Siren (225)

2000:
Soul Grinder w/ phlegm upgrade (160)
Take off Mutation from Havocs (-10)

That seems pretty cheesy to me. I don't think there's a lot of cheese in the CSM codex it's more in their ability to offer things to armies that they don't normally have. Daemons and IG both benefit from the armor saves but the CSM can't hit nearly as hard as the Fiends or Flamers do and the dakka of the IG is hard to beat. Either way I think people are gonna take a serious look at allies now.

No screamers.. no good CSM allied character. The demonettes suck.. Sorry, no cheese there besides the cool CSM troops.

Stand by for Lucius challenging a drop-podding Lysander

Hashulaman wrote:

Also I do know that if the Plague Zombies get FAQ'd to be larger than 10 models, you will see a lot more Typhus lead armies with hordes of cheap 35 model units with FnP, Fear and Fearless. They will become undercosted for their ability to sit on an objective and shrug off most small arms fire and most CC attacks.

Why can't you have more than 10 cultists in a squad that becomes zombies when the game starts due to Typhus? Guess I need to read my codex again...

There is much discussion, but it is more or less people complaining that it is not what they expected. Typhus special rule says the cultists may not purchase any options...the very first option to purchase (in the cultist army entry) is additional unit members. So ten bare bones cultists per zombie squad.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Allies for CSM:

Allies for CSM:
Chaos Daemons: Battle Brothers
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience
Necrons: Allies of convenience
Orks: Allies of convenience
Tau Empire: Allies of convenience

Chaos Daemons is the natural choice. But don't get overboard with expensive HQs.
IG can add variety to each army.
Necrons can supplement with flyers (Overlord w/ CCB, Night Scythe with Warriors, Doom Scythe).
Orks can increase the tactical flexibility (more dakka: Lootas, more cc: Nobs, more troops: Boyz).
Tau can provide decent fire support.

I dunno, I'm pretty happy with a Bloodthirster trompin' around smashing stuff and soaking fire so far, pretty effective as the required "Allies Tax" goes (heck, one of the main reasons for me to take the Demons Allies), but I can see some choices not being as worthwhile.

Played against Chaos tonight with my White Scars and lost narrowly in Purge. Things that stood out to me when seeing things from the other side of the table; I5 makes a big deal in combat against Marines, Boons are underestimated, Heldrakes and Forgefiends are rather terrifying, Dirge Casters are really effective.

Yep, I would definately be interested in boons on every unit but plaguemarines. It is just that a good chunk of the results that you would want for them, they already have. I just found myself rolling results they already had most of the time.

Also, although it is kind of lame, you can use the helldrake to snipe as well. Since all weapons have a 45 degree arc and you can only remove models from LOS, you can get close enough to a unit so that the guys in front can not be allocated wounds(Out of LOS) however the template can still be placed so that they are hit to get the maximum number of people under the template as possible. It can be placed out of LOS, just can only hurt people in LOS. I came to this realization as I was about to start making 45 degree markers for my fliers so that I can see how far away they have to be to see a model to shoot.

The Slaaneshi mount gives acute senses and outflank, which can synergize with a cheap unit of slaanesh bikers for t5 i5 3/5++/5+FNP outflanking unit. That from the side, 2 full units of beast, all less than one deathstar unit.

And has anyone mentioned the diiiiirt cheap predators? Cause all that above + 3 (!) predators can fit in 1250 pt. game and leave 200-300 pts for troops. That can Noise marines.

Slaanesh lord on steed, biker retinue with FNP
3 preds with Lascannon sides
10 spawn
250-350 for troops.

If you take advantage of ALL of the good bang-for-buck units, the new chaos dex can DOMINATE smaller point games. Now at 2000+ the relative simplicity and huge competition for HS basically nueter the benefits, but between 750-1500 I think Chaos is one of the better options out right now. Certainly beats the GK at such small points.

250-350pts isn't nearly enough points for a decent Troop selection. Also so far in my experiences deploying the Bikes is better than outflanking them.