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Ovion wrote: I'm assuming the logical unit to use for Plague Zombies would be WHFB Vampire Counts Zombies? (At least what I was intending to use)
Mantic ones are same scale, cheaper, and much nicer looking. The GW ones have not aged well at all, no pun intended.
This, basically. I'm not a big fan of Mantic, but their zombies are much better than the 10+ year old GW ones. If you're worried about being able to use them in a GW store, convert them with Imperial Guard parts or something.
Omegus wrote: Being susceptible to ID is not looking at a unit in a vacuum, it is a serious drawback for such an expensive model.
Yes that is true but that has been pointed out to death. However outside of braodsides it is usually quite easy to either A.Avoid that unit and/or B. Take it out with the rest of your army. Knowing that you have A hammer in said unit if it is on the justicar Challenge, no longer a problem. Next if it is not, still challenge to lower the number of attacks received.
Second a hammer is going to have 1-2 attacks needing 5s to hit, 2s to wound and then getting through a 5+ invul
1/3 of an attack hits, 5/6ths wound and then 2/3s make it through the invul save. So that is 18.5% per attack to get a wound on the daemon prince. Not good odds.
That is also assuming, like I said before, that he has not wiped out the unit with the number of attacks he has as well as a the torrent Ap3 flamer.
You cant look at a unit like this in a vacuum outside the rest of a list. If I had a model I wanted to use for one I would run a nurgle Daemon prince all day. Throw it behind an Aegis BAMN 2+ cover save all the time.
Even then a lot of the instant death issues I see can be aided by using correct terrain.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/22 19:35:22
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Omegus wrote: Being susceptible to ID is not looking at a unit in a vacuum, it is a serious drawback for such an expensive model.
yes, any chump with a force weapon who lands a wound or any other general instant death weapon
flesh guantlents
implosion missiles
d cannons
huskblades
decapitator
chaos mutations also can give ID.
360 points is a lot to spend on something that could get one shotted.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
One may argue well of course Grey Knights are going to gank him, but that's only one army; thing is for a TAC list you can be sure you are going to face plenty of Grey Knights, and serving them up Slay the Warlord on a silver platter like that ain't too great, especially when you can just take the much better and much cheaper Lord.
Daemon Princes may have their places in certain armies, but they are far and few between.
Tally of Pestilence lists are pretty broken. Everything in my army has MoN and, with the help of neat things like the Brand and cheap havocs / awesomer Obliterators.. usually have 20 models down on Turn 1.
"Better have one flexible neck to be making that shot," Bob said.
"You only assume the Balefire is coming out of his mouth, Bob. In my world, the Heldrake is pooping daemonic fire on your troops as it jets away from their mangled and now burning corpses." -John
Boneblade wrote:Tally of Pestilence lists are pretty broken. Everything in my army has MoN and, with the help of neat things like the Brand and cheap havocs / awesomer Obliterators.. usually have 20 models down on Turn 1.
If you have 20 models down in turn 1 on a regular basis then your opponent's should stop playing this game as they are clearly not cut out for it. It's quite easy to delay the tally for an opponent with a quarter of a brain for 40k, and even at that, killing 20 models in turn 1 is incredibly difficult for Chaos; that Brand won't be in range turn 1, those Obliterators' Plasma Cannons may not be in range or may face a spread out enemy, and Havocs are still only AP4.
As for the army being cheesy, it is quite powerful, but to call it cheesy might be jumping the gun a bit. It relies on Epidemius staying alive for the whole game, coming down on turn 1, not facing Grey Knights, in part getting into combat, etc. There are a fair few variables, and though most are more likely to go your way than not, it is still very easy for it to all go to hell, as is always the case with gimmick lists.
Yes, there is a very simple answer to Tally lists. Kill Epidemius.
However, when the model and his escort are hidden behind or inside a ruin and out of LoS, it becomes challenging for most of my opponents to even try and bring them down. Just in the last game I played the guy deployed Harker and a squad of demopack / flamer Vets in outflank with the idea of killing Epidemius' squad.
It took them a turn to try and get into position.
My Heldrake melted the squad.
Epidemius sat safely on his objective. The rest of the IG gunline had zero LoS. Maybe Warpquake or Dreadknights would be great ways to engage him, but no matter what situation you consider, Epidemius being on the table forces people to play a certain way (by throwing everything at him).
And even in the absence of Epidemius, what I lose is a squad of objective holders and a cool rule. The other 1815 points of my army are still Chaos Space Marines, and if you ignore them or underestimate them that's your sad mistake. Not like losing Epidemius causes my whole Nurgle list to Phase Out.
"Better have one flexible neck to be making that shot," Bob said.
"You only assume the Balefire is coming out of his mouth, Bob. In my world, the Heldrake is pooping daemonic fire on your troops as it jets away from their mangled and now burning corpses." -John
Boneblade wrote:However, when the model and his escort are hidden behind or inside a ruin and out of LoS, it becomes challenging for most of my opponents to even try and bring them down. Just in the last game I played the guy deployed Harker and a squad of demopack / flamer Vets in outflank with the idea of killing Epidemius' squad.
'When' being the operative term here. You may not have such terrain on your side, or on the board at all; 50% chance you get no say on that. Then there's Deep Strike scatter which may take him away rom that, and moving 6" with no run may take awhile.
As for the IG reference, it seems more like you are getting a little worked up on the tally's ability because your opponent didn't play correctly to handle it; it is silly to think that Vet unit had a chance of taking out Epidemius as well as the Plaguebearers he had to go through first. Then again, that's only how your post makes it look, but it's just as likely that that is not the case, so I won't assume too much on that. Off topic: tell him to take Manticores next time.
Boneblade wrote:And even in the absence of Epidemius, what I lose is a squad of objective holders and a cool rule. The other 1815 points of my army are still Chaos Space Marines, and if you ignore them or underestimate them that's your sad mistake. Not like losing Epidemius causes my whole Nurgle list to Phase Out.
It's not such a simple transition. To make the list really work you buy specific units to maximise the effect of the tally, meaning when you lose Epidemius you don't just have a normal list again, you have a normal list that is likely lacking in some key area because with the tally that area was not as important. And besides, the whole point is people are putting the tally out there as a cheese list, so if that were true losing the tally makes your list's power drop a tonne.
For the record also so you don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the tally is a bad list, and it is definitely one of the best Chaos ones out there, I just don't think it's the cheese people are calling it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/22 20:47:30
Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
every dragon was a dead squad almost every turn in my games, i ran two one would fly on, VS a transport and go burn something deep field (like havocs) and the other would burn whatever came out of the transport. They're really nasty and are alot harder to kill than they seem from first glance.
Kevlar wrote: Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
Kevlar wrote: Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Kevlar wrote: Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Problem is this series of events follows a pattern of bias assumptions; it assumes you will get your preferred wave (same problem the tally has itself and is just as likely to happen to either list, yet it assumes the Flamers will get the drop every time), it assumes you will get a decent scatter (or lack thereof), and most importantly it assumes the opponent will be a moron and clump his Plaguebearers together to give you all those hits. Then when you try to negate that last point with Pavane, you are doubling up the first two points possibly in order to get the Masque in.
All and all, that's an unlikely set of circumstances, and they can be made further so with ease, e.g. put Zombies around the area of the Plaguebearers so even on a good scatter the Flamers can't drop in range of them. This also gimps the Masque as she's going to have a tough time moving all of those bodies around. And it only takes that one turn of failure and those frail units can be dealt with.
In the end this is putting those units in a vacuum though, and when you add full armies into the mix, it makes it much more difficult for the Flamers to pull off.
Similarly to earlier, don't underestimate the tally either, it is still tough to take out, even for Flamers.
After my game today I was thinking a large unit of cultists with a dark apostle could be fun. Give them all CC weapons and throw in a flamer or two.
Then have the zombies for objective sitting.
Or having zombies with hatred could also be fun. It was entertaining seeing my zombie leader issuing a challenge. I was hoping he would kill him, so I got a roll on the chart. Only roll I got turned my Sorcerer into a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Against an army without strength 10 he was just mowing through dudes.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
Spoiler:
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
Spoiler:
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Spoiler:
Problem is this series of events follows a pattern of bias assumptions; it assumes you will get your preferred wave (same problem the tally has itself and is just as likely to happen to either list, yet it assumes the Flamers will get the drop every time), it assumes you will get a decent scatter (or lack thereof), and most importantly it assumes the opponent will be a moron and clump his Plaguebearers together to give you all those hits. Then when you try to negate that last point with Pavane, you are doubling up the first two points possibly in order to get the Masque in.
All and all, that's an unlikely set of circumstances, and they can be made further so with ease, e.g. put Zombies around the area of the Plaguebearers so even on a good scatter the Flamers can't drop in range of them. This also gimps the Masque as she's going to have a tough time moving all of those bodies around. And it only takes that one turn of failure and those frail units can be dealt with.
In the end this is putting those units in a vacuum though, and when you add full armies into the mix, it makes it much more difficult for the Flamers to pull off.
Similarly to earlier, don't underestimate the tally either, it is still tough to take out, even for Flamers.
I would assume, putting some flamers in each wave would guarantee some getting there in the first wave, which is the bonus of multiple squads, the negative for Epi is he is the only model that can do a thing.
i.e. 1 squad in one wave, 2 in the other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 12:15:06
Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
Spoiler:
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
Spoiler:
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Spoiler:
Problem is this series of events follows a pattern of bias assumptions; it assumes you will get your preferred wave (same problem the tally has itself and is just as likely to happen to either list, yet it assumes the Flamers will get the drop every time), it assumes you will get a decent scatter (or lack thereof), and most importantly it assumes the opponent will be a moron and clump his Plaguebearers together to give you all those hits. Then when you try to negate that last point with Pavane, you are doubling up the first two points possibly in order to get the Masque in.
All and all, that's an unlikely set of circumstances, and they can be made further so with ease, e.g. put Zombies around the area of the Plaguebearers so even on a good scatter the Flamers can't drop in range of them. This also gimps the Masque as she's going to have a tough time moving all of those bodies around. And it only takes that one turn of failure and those frail units can be dealt with.
In the end this is putting those units in a vacuum though, and when you add full armies into the mix, it makes it much more difficult for the Flamers to pull off.
Similarly to earlier, don't underestimate the tally either, it is still tough to take out, even for Flamers.
I would assume, putting some flamers in each wave would guarantee some getting there in the first wave, which is the bonus of multiple squads, the negative for Epi is he is the only model that can do a thing.
i.e. 1 squad in one wave, 2 in the other.
They're still not guaranteed any of the other variables though; I certainly don't see them as a hard counter to Epidemius.
I've heard of using Ahriman to infiltrate Ork shootas, have up to 90 Shootas infiltrate. Seems like it would put a serious dent in someone's plans. Even a single maxed Ork squad infiltrate would cause your opponent to focus a good amount of resources to get rid of them.
5deadly wrote: Well besides all the Kids not getting there way… it seems like a good codex… as a matter of fact it’s the best codex for 6th edition so far. (we’ll see who… you know?)
so…. I guess the rumors part of this is over now… Kinda feel like I waking up on the floor of a kinda cool house party where I messed with an Kinda Ok looking Chick… but now my balls itch…
What about this. Load up a squad of assuault termies in a LR. Have ahriman as an hq. infiltrate em 18in away.
Move 6 in and disembark 6 forward. In shooting go flat out to be 6in away from the target unit. in assault assault with termies 6in with no overwatch due to dirge casters. Use this tactic vs any shooty army. Or infiltrate a some other large hate tech on turn 1.
They're still not guaranteed any of the other variables though; I certainly don't see them as a hard counter to Epidemius.
You can guarantee pavane easily enough, blue scribes in one wave, the masque in the other. So you can always put pavave + flamers in both waves. Screamers too just in case you need to add a few extra wounds with the turbo boost attack. And a couple phlegm grinders never hurt. Daemons can probably take out Epi easier than any other army. But then stuff like deathmarks exist too. Can't they use their ethereal intercept on Epidemus' wave even if he comes in turn 1?
firl21 wrote: What about this. Load up a squad of assuault termies in a LR. Have ahriman as an hq. infiltrate em 18in away.
Move 6 in and disembark 6 forward. In shooting go flat out to be 6in away from the target unit. in assault assault with termies 6in with no overwatch due to dirge casters. Use this tactic vs any shooty army. Or infiltrate a some other large hate tech on turn 1.
I believe you cannot assault if you deploy via Infiltrate first turn; and too bad. Otherwise, sound strategy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would work well for any shooting unit, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/27 16:11:50
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Gangrel767 wrote: Unless you go at the bottom of turn 1. As you can only not assault in the first player turn.
Right, outflank or deepstrike cannot assault the turn they arrive, but infiltrators can assault turn one if they go second.
... that is such a dumb rule that first player turn infiltrators cannot assault, but 2nd player turn infiltrators can. I'm guessing that was a typo ...
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current armies Space Marines 4000 pts, Eldar 3000 pts
Successful Trades: 4 Swap Shop - CSM/Demons for sale
Gangrel767 wrote: Unless you go at the bottom of turn 1. As you can only not assault in the first player turn.
Right, outflank or deepstrike cannot assault the turn they arrive, but infiltrators can assault turn one if they go second.
... that is such a dumb rule that first player turn infiltrators cannot assault, but 2nd player turn infiltrators can. I'm guessing that was a typo ...
It's not. It gives an advantage to the second player to offset the alpha strike and first blood issues, and it allows the first turn player to respond to the potential incoming assault.
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