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Those of you who know me (relatively few, I'd wager) will remember that I have a unit of Khorne Bezerkers in my Iron Warriors army, representing a "Breaching" unit, one that charges into the hole made in a defensive structure by artillery, in order to slaughter everyone inside. With the advent of the new CSM book, however, there is another option that I believe needs greater analysis than it has received. That option is simply using Chaos Space Marines with the Mark of Khorne and other upgrades.

This is the kind of unit I was thinking of:
10 CSM w. BP/CCW, VotLW, MoK, Icon of Wrath
Champion has a power sword

Whole thing comes to...205pts? To give a little perspective, the same size Khorne Bezerker unit (with the same options), comes to 235pts, if I calculate correctly.

Now, what do we gain by paying those 30pts? Well, WS 5 and Fearless, of course. I've included the Icon of Wrath in the Bezerker unit for comparative purposes, but, since they already have Furious Charge, all they're gaining is a re-roll to charge distances, which could be a very big deal. It does mean that they're less vulnerable to the Icon being sniped out of the unit, as they'd only lose one benefit, as opposed to the CSM unit who would lose both. Take the Icon out, however, and now you've only got a 15pt difference. Would you pay the equivilent of 1.5pts per model to give your CSM Fearless and WS 5? Sounds like a bargain to me.

There are of course other things to consider, one of the more important of those I believe is the fact that the CSM unit can take far more options in terms of ranged weapons. This gives them a greater capacity for flexibility, if you want to pay the points for it. A couple of flamers adds close range support + some charge defense, meltaguns means they can deal with vehicles even easier (although I'm unconvinced they'd need help with this, str 6 krak grenades means the only things giving them trouble would be land raiders or monoliths, especially as they'd be re-rolling their 3+ attack rolls in the first round, unless Hatred doesn't apply against vehicles).

This isn't just a matter of which is better, though, it's also a matter of how to best use them. I've contemplated putting them in a rhino and just fanging it up the board in the 1st turn, but that ensures a 3rd turn charge. Outside of a rhino, the unit's more vulnerable, but has the opportunity to charge on the 2nd turn. Depending on your opponent and the layout of the board, this could be very important, especially with a re-roll to charge distances, you can afford to risk a slightly longer charge than usual.

In this I admit I am at somewhat of a loss, it seems transporting them across the field relatively unscathed is impossible, unless you bring other things that will concern your opponent more. I'd thought of two maulerfiends flanking a unit of 20 CSM upgraded as above, with a screen of cultists in front, with no upgrades. If that thing hits home at close to full strength, ugh. 81 str 5 attacks hitting on 3+ with re-rolls, wounding on 3+...something's gonna die.

Anyway, I'm keen to get a discussion going on this. I don't, however, want this to dissolve into a debate about whether assault is dead in 6th.

TL;DR How would you build a CSM close combat unit, and how would you get it to where it needs to go?

I think you still need Rhinos to get assaulty squads there, especially against mobile armies. But they'll need to be accompanied by other fast units like Maulerfiends, Spawn, Bikes. Rhinos are also desireable because of Dirge Casters. If you use Huron or Ahriman you could also start the guys outside the transports to infiltrate forward, and haul the transports up alongside them to screen from shooting from at least one direction, and get the DCs into range.

I don't think the Khorne units do it for me. More likely Nurgle or Slaanesh, which both (with Icon of Excess for the latter) make the unit more durable, and Vets upgrade still makes them hit a bit better in the first round.

I think they can make it there on foot, especially if backed up by something fast like bikes or chaos spawn.

20 on foot, no bolters, votlw, power sword, gom, mok, wrath=365

Same as above, mos, excess=375

Foot slogging is a slow way to die. Its hard to pull off a charge when you run a foot slogging assault unit. Then its better to play a shooty list with some counter-strike element. Here your assault unit could shine.

Foot slogging has always worked for some armies. With the new transport rules mech has to wait until turn 3 to charge anyways if the unit is embarked at the start of turn 2. It would be rather easy to screen the csm horde with t6 spawn or fnp bikers.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Foot slogging has always worked for some armies. With the new transport rules mech has to wait until turn 3 to charge anyways if the unit is embarked at the start of turn 2. It would be rather easy to screen the csm horde with t6 spawn or fnp bikers.

This would be an option. But is it really worth it?

I'm a bit iffy on footslogging myself. I've been doing it with SW, putting a SS WGT in my GH squads, and that SS takes a fair beating from plasma and other such anti-MEQ weapons. But CSM lack such an option. Target saturation might help, but this will only work with equally scary unit- plowing battlecannon rounds into a footslogging squad is a no-brainer, compared to 5th ed's "do I go to wound a daemon prince, or try to pop one of the many rhino's?"

Bikes and spawn, though, move up rapidly, can support maulerfiends, and bikes can boast plasma or meltaguns to give them transport popping capabilities and threaten additional targets with their shooting to complement their assaulting.

I am in the same situation (shocker).

I almost always included a squad of berzerkers in my list for the previous codex.

i have an apoc game coming up and ws planning on fieldeing 8 Berzerkers + A khorne lord in a Land Raider.

The better AV of the raider measnthey should make it there, and i've also added on a dirge caster so they wont get overwatched whent hey charge in.

Just worked out the exact points for the following:

8 Berzerkers - power weapon, mutation, Land raider, Dirge caster, veterans - 430 points
8 CSM - MoK, IoW, power weapons mutation, land raider, dirge caster, veterans, 2 flamers - 432 points

The CSM squad comes out 2 points more expensive. So for 2 points you are gaining 2 flamers but losing Fearless and 1 WS (so you're hitting on 4's instead of 3's).

To be honest i am torn.

 Praxiss wrote:
I am in the same situation (shocker).

I almost always included a squad of berzerkers in my list for the previous codex.

i have an apoc game coming up and ws planning on fieldeing 8 Berzerkers + A khorne lord in a Land Raider.

The better AV of the raider measnthey should make it there, and i've also added on a dirge caster so they wont get overwatched whent hey charge in.

Just worked out the exact points for the following:

8 Berzerkers - power weapon, mutation, Land raider, Dirge caster, veterans - 430 points
8 CSM - MoK, IoW, power weapons mutation, land raider, dirge caster, veterans, 2 flamers - 432 points

The CSM squad comes out 2 points more expensive. So for 2 points you are gaining 2 flamers but losing Fearless and 1 WS (so you're hitting on 4's instead of 3's).

To be honest i am torn.

Zerkers also carry the tax of having to take a Lord with Mark/Kharn to make them troops which will tip those scales, unless you are running them as elites.

true. it depends what kind of lord you want to field.

A terminator Lord with twin lightning claws, Rage and Counter-Attack coudl be quite handy for challenges.

Find the points for Kharn.
He will eat just about anything he needs to challenge. And by anything I mean everything.
I think on a charge he hits on 2s at S7 with a mad number of dice.
You might loose a zerker here or there, but Kharn makes up for it.

I like to keep things simple yet effective.

10 CSM that trade their bolters for CCW for free. Votlw upgrade, mark of Slannesh, Lightning Claw and Powerfist on the champ. Rhino with Dirge Caster.

I strongly believe that striking first is more important than striking one more time because of rage. As my SW can tell you counter attack is never guaranteed. The Aspiring champ will have the tools to attack anything effectively.

Spending points on the icon of excess is helpful for survivability, not killing, as such its not really necessary for an effective yet throw away assault unit.

The rhino has the range to get where you need to go. First turn go fully flat out to get 18" forward. Next turn get your guys out and run forward. Now drive the rhino (going flat out if necessary) as far as needed to put it in front of the largest shooting threat blocking LOS to your disembarked marines.

Then on turn 3 you have 6 + 2d6 inches to reach your target and a dirge caster to prevent overwatch. You have already covered 39" or so in the last two turns. You should be able to reach something.

I'm considering Spawn more and more seriously, particularly as it'd give me an excuse (as if I needed one) to convert up some giant servitors with lashing mechatendrils to represent some spawn with MoN. Having a bunch of "cybernetically enhanced" bikers alongside and you've got a pretty decent van I reckon.

Rhino;'s are still viable for assault based csm armies. You just have to sling shot on turn 1.

Move vehicle up 6" disembark squad up 6". Run squad D6". That sets you up for a turn 2 charge with them assuming you dont roll a miserable run.

 Tomb King wrote:
Rhino;'s are still viable for assault based csm armies. You just have to sling shot on turn 1.

Move vehicle up 6" disembark squad up 6". Run squad D6". That sets you up for a turn 2 charge with them assuming you dont roll a miserable run.

I don't know if a single move up will get the job done. All missions have a 24" zone you will have to cross. Even with an average run roll, that will see you 15" in on your first turn. The next phase you will have to cover the last 9" which is doable if the other guy is right up on his edge and straight across from you. But if they are back any distance from that front edge or your guys in front died to shooting, that 9" might suddenly be 12 or greater. Kinda chancy. Also you will be pretty exposed since it will be almost impossible to get another vehicle in front of them to screen them.

I'm not dissing the rhino assault (see my above post), but I think a second turn assault will be pretty rare unless the other guy wants to get into assault too.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Rhino;'s are still viable for assault based csm armies. You just have to sling shot on turn 1.

Move vehicle up 6" disembark squad up 6". Run squad D6". That sets you up for a turn 2 charge with them assuming you dont roll a miserable run.

I don't know if a single move up will get the job done. All missions have a 24" zone you will have to cross. Even with an average run roll, that will see you 15" in on your first turn. The next phase you will have to cover the last 9" which is doable if the other guy is right up on his edge and straight across from you. But if they are back any distance from that front edge or your guys in front died to shooting, that 9" might suddenly be 12 or greater. Kinda chancy. Also you will be pretty exposed since it will be almost impossible to get another vehicle in front of them to screen them.

I'm not dissing the rhino assault (see my above post), but I think a second turn assault will be pretty rare unless the other guy wants to get into assault too.

Sling-shoting them will result in a 21"-36" effective range for a turn 2 charge variables being run and charge distance. Take into account if you do this ur gonna have to do it as a rhino rush army not just one squad going all by themselves they would rightly get shot to death.

I don't see how a 2nd turn assault would be that rare, you can move your rhinos up 18"; 12" move and 6" flat out. (forgive me if I get any of this wrong, I'm on holiday and don't have my rulebook). Then you only have 6" left of that no mans land, then 2nd turn you can turn the rhino around and get out 6", now either youre facing an assault army in which case you can count on them coming to you, your going to face a static heavy gunline army, or youre going to face a mobile gunline army.

So you'll have plenty of times where your opponents army is not at the front of his deployment zone, but with the movement out of the rhino, your units are; but your opponent can only deploy so far back, say about 6" before they either run out of space to fit units, or risk not having range on their own guns. With the new charges, the average distance is 7", more if you can reroll your charge distance. This is considering that they don't come to you, aren't at the edge of their zone, can move through not having heavy weapons, etc.

I will ask, on the normal CSM squad, can you buy a meltagun or two? That would make them as expensive as the khorne bezerkers, however, you can then deal with monoliths and landraiders, but it means you can deal with tanks that are out of range, and try and kill transports before going in and killing the occupants. That would seem a good advantage that bezerkers don't have.

You cannot assault the same turn you disembark form a vehicle unless it has the assault vehicle rules.

CSM can take 2 meltaguns and I agree that they're a better buy then khorne berzerkers.

Coyote81 wrote:
You cannot assault the same turn you disembark form a vehicle unless it has the assault vehicle rules.

CSM can take 2 meltaguns and I agree that they're a better buy then khorne berzerkers.

Sucks to be them, I primarily use either tyranids or open topped vehicles, so never have to worry about that.

Landraiders might be out of the question, too expensive, but it was quite a good tactic in 5th, load it up with bezerkers (now normal) and kharn (maybe just the khorn chaos lord) and send it forward.

how about a nice meaty 25 man cultist squad with a DA for leadership just march the zerkers up behind them

My opinions on assault in this edition are probably known enough by this stage, however if you must have an assault unit, get some Bikers. They don't suffer from needing a Land Raider to get there, and they can back their play with some powerful shooting first. You add some extra umph cheaply enough by adding a Lord on a Juggernaut or Slaanesh Steed (if you have the right mark that is).

 Jihallah wrote:
I'm a bit iffy on footslogging myself. I've been doing it with SW, putting a SS WGT in my GH squads, and that SS takes a fair beating from plasma and other such anti-MEQ weapons. But CSM lack such an option. Target saturation might help, but this will only work with equally scary unit- plowing battlecannon rounds into a footslogging squad is a no-brainer, compared to 5th ed's "do I go to wound a daemon prince, or try to pop one of the many rhino's?"

Bikes and spawn, though, move up rapidly, can support maulerfiends, and bikes can boast plasma or meltaguns to give them transport popping capabilities and threaten additional targets with their shooting to complement their assaulting.

Well I think you can take care of the battlecannon problem by putting a nurgle lord in terminator armor at the front of the unit. If the unit is dispersed, you're only looking at him having to make 3-5 2+ saves per template. He also works well against all those new AP3 template weapons that are out there now.

Or Typhus--he can actually afford to fail 4 saves + FNP before wounds go on the unit.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Or Typhus--he can actually afford to fail 4 saves + FNP before wounds go on the unit.

I think you mean 3, unless you want Typhus to die.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
how about a nice meaty 25 man cultist squad with a DA for leadership just march the zerkers up behind them

35 cultists with hatred and fearless scares a lot of people. Assuming they can all get into base they hit with over a hundred attacks of which 75 will hit. so what if you need 5s to wound and dont ignore armor.

 Exergy wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
how about a nice meaty 25 man cultist squad with a DA for leadership just march the zerkers up behind them

35 cultists with hatred and fearless scares a lot of people. Assuming they can all get into base they hit with over a hundred attacks of which 75 will hit. so what if you need 5s to wound and dont ignore armor.

Well, they have crappy initiative too, so the chances of 35 of them ever getting to attack is pretty slim. I'd imagine they would struggle to beat a bone stock tactical squad.

Kevlar wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
how about a nice meaty 25 man cultist squad with a DA for leadership just march the zerkers up behind them

35 cultists with hatred and fearless scares a lot of people. Assuming they can all get into base they hit with over a hundred attacks of which 75 will hit. so what if you need 5s to wound and dont ignore armor.

Well, they have crappy initiative too, so the chances of 35 of them ever getting to attack is pretty slim. I'd imagine they would struggle to beat a bone stock tactical squad.

having low init means that some will die, but the enemy will have to move up to meet the cultists first. I think 35 of them would easily handle a tactical squad, but im not sure about anything else.

 Exergy wrote:

having low init means that some will die, but the enemy will have to move up to meet the cultists first. I think 35 of them would easily handle a tactical squad, but im not sure about anything else.

I guess that depends on what the tac squad does on the two turns before the cultists get there with their free missile launcher and flamer. I'd imagine they could be combat squadded as well, take the charge with the first group, and have the flamer sweep in after the first group dies to wreak some havok on the bunched up cultists then counter assault.

Welp, let's see, tac squad overwatches first, resulting in approx. 2 dead cultists, cultists make it in, tac squad attacks first w. 12 attacks (9+3 from the sergeant), 8 hit, about 5-6 more cultists dead. Now there are 28 or 27 cultists left, they attack back with 3 attacks each, so 84 attacks (including champion), 56 hit w. re-rolls, and of them, about 18 wound, marines make their saves and 6 die.

Pretty rough maths there, I'll admit, but it seems like the cultists lose the engagement slightly, not that it matters much, they can afford to lose more than the tac squad. Still, that cultist unit is pretty expensive, I'm assuming you put a Dark Apostle in there to give them hatred and fearless, which puts them a fair way ahead of the tac squad in points. Still, I didn't account for th DA in that combat, maybe he killed the sergeant and became a daemon prince.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Welp, let's see, tac squad overwatches first, resulting in approx. 2 dead cultists, cultists make it in, tac squad attacks first w. 12 attacks (9+3 from the sergeant), 8 hit, about 5-6 more cultists dead. Now there are 28 or 27 cultists left, they attack back with 3 attacks each, so 84 attacks (including champion), 56 hit w. re-rolls, and of them, about 18 wound, marines make their saves and 6 die.

Pretty rough maths there, I'll admit, but it seems like the cultists lose the engagement slightly, not that it matters much, they can afford to lose more than the tac squad. Still, that cultist unit is pretty expensive, I'm assuming you put a Dark Apostle in there to give them hatred and fearless, which puts them a fair way ahead of the tac squad in points. Still, I didn't account for th DA in that combat, maybe he killed the sergeant and became a daemon prince.

Yeah to be fair even though it would be a silly waste of an hq slot you have to throw a SM captain in with the tac squad, and possibly give him a storm shield and artificer armor or something to equal out points. He'd probably kick the DA's ass in a challenge.

Personally I can't ever see running a DA. Yeah they make a crappy cultist unit alsmost as good as a tactical sqaud, assuming the cultists get the charge. But what a waste of an HQ slot. I'd rather take Huron and get some infiltrators, or take a marked lord and make some of my cult troops scoring.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:
I'm a bit iffy on footslogging myself. I've been doing it with SW, putting a SS WGT in my GH squads, and that SS takes a fair beating from plasma and other such anti-MEQ weapons. But CSM lack such an option. Target saturation might help, but this will only work with equally scary unit- plowing battlecannon rounds into a footslogging squad is a no-brainer, compared to 5th ed's "do I go to wound a daemon prince, or try to pop one of the many rhino's?"

Bikes and spawn, though, move up rapidly, can support maulerfiends, and bikes can boast plasma or meltaguns to give them transport popping capabilities and threaten additional targets with their shooting to complement their assaulting.

Well I think you can take care of the battlecannon problem by putting a nurgle lord in terminator armor at the front of the unit. If the unit is dispersed, you're only looking at him having to make 3-5 2+ saves per template. He also works well against all those new AP3 template weapons that are out there now.

Or Typhus--he can actually afford to fail 4 saves + FNP before wounds go on the unit.

Whilst it's a bit more costly than 2-3 SS WGT, I will ponder upon it indeed. But I still am leaning away from it, as he lacks the 3++ to boot