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I think SW players just have to accept that they're going to get beaten by flyer spam. That, or take guard allies. I don't think having a hard counter is that much of a big deal, and eventually I bet we'll see flakk missile upgrades for long-fangs.

re flyers:

you do not NEED to have a flyer in game. Its a great boon to have a vendetta or three on your side, but remember, at AV 12, they can still get 1 shotted and then where are your points? I think the idea that "we have to accept we are going to sometime lose against flyers" is akin to saying "we are occasionally going to lose to an army with a unit we dont have." That's great. I don't have carnifexes, greater demons, or dreadknights. that doesn't mean that I have an unabashed need for them.

AFAIAC, not having a flyer in the fast attack section isn't necessarily an autolose. You can take an aegis if you really want it, or just do what I've done my past three games and try your luck on a 6 man lascannon squad. All it takes is 1 good shot and that flyer is scrap and chickenfeed. Last game I played this weekend, Apoc, I took a large number of longfang squads, no fortifications. I camped in some ruins, and managed to drop three helltalons without taking any significant damage in return. I am of the mind that if you focus fire, the flyer will hit the deck, and that will be that.

Moving on: I think that organizing our charges in priority order are a good idea. I had the dubious misfortune of charging blood claws AND thunderwolves at the same unit of chaos marines, his fire took out the thunderwolves.... I should have engaged with the claws first, then support charged with the thunderwolves, saving them from eating melta and bolters to death.


Re "Ton of dead marines" template. if you get close enough that they cannot just hit your guys with that template, I do not believe they can use it. Drop pod into their mouth, stand on their molars, and kick them in the throat, kids.

resipsa wrote:
That's great. I don't have carnifexes, greater demons, or dreadknights. that doesn't mean that I have an unabashed need for them.

Terrible logic. Firstly no one is saying you need flyers to win. Secondly, fliers don't have a counter other than AAA or AA from your own fliers. MCs do have counters. In fact there are plenty I can think of off the top of my head. However, to kill a flier, you either need a) luck b) massed fire-power or c) dedicated anti-air from aforementioned AAA or fliers.

You can take an aegis if you really want it, or just do what I've done my past three games and try your luck on a 6 man lascannon squad. All it takes is 1 good shot and that flyer is scrap and chickenfeed. *snip anecdotal evidence*

I'm glad to see you're getting lucky and that investing huge amount of points to take down max of 1 flier per turn seems worth it. The problem is, your argument of "If you kill it, it's terrible lol" works for every unit. If you kill tanks they're useless, if you kill MCs they're useless, if you kill infantry they're useless. All it takes is one good pie-plate and those long fangs are chickenfeed. The sad thing is, those 6 LC LFs cost a lot more than your spammable Vendetta.

Fliers are harder to kill and so are a better points investment because they're more durable. Yes taking a quad-gun might strip a couple of points off a vendetta or doomsythe but is easily avoided by terrain, and it's more than possible to kill it before the flier even enters play. Although I've never bothered, it's so rare that a quad-gun can kill any of my vendettas with interceptor.

Re "Ton of dead marines" template. if you get close enough that they cannot just hit your guys with that template, I do not believe they can use it. Drop pod into their mouth, stand on their molars, and kick them in the throat, kids.

Except all fliers have deep strike. Drop podding in their lines doesn't help you when the flier can just enter play wherever it wants.

Rabble rabble!!!!

If a flyer deep strikes... doesn't it have to be in hover mode? Otherwise it has to come on zooming... I am setting my SW army up to get in their face and control the "mid field" not sit in the back... I have some long fangs, sure, but I am not going to put all of my points into them when there are so many great units that can serve purposes else where... flyers are kind of like misquitoes (lascannon vendettas anyways) if you don't have any meaty vehicles for them to shoot... Now the punisher vendettas might be a problem...

Seems to me though, that if I am going to build an army that does not have a flyer, it will need to be good at what it does: Own the ground... if an opponent is sinking points (400-500) into flyers, that gives me an advantage on the ground... and I will just have to wait for the flyers to go into hover mode to take them down...

strengthofthedragon2 482594 5052271 wrote: if you don't have any meaty vehicles for them to shoot... Now the punisher vendettas might be a problem...

This is pretty much how SW are getting around the problem...until you come across heldrakes with the baleflamer. Those things will chew through your MEQ with ease. The Vultures (punisher cannon fliers) aren't that fantastic at killing MEQ - you're looking at around 4 kills per turn, which isn't great for the 155pt investment. Especially if you compare it to a LR for example.

The main worry about Vendettas is the transport capacity. There's probably 10 vets in there with special weapons waiting to clear you off your home objective and stroll onto it by turn 5.

Own the ground... if an opponent is sinking points (400-500) into flyers, that gives me an advantage on the ground

Except to have 3 fliers, you don't need to pay more than 390 pts in guard. The point about dominating the ground is a good one though. It's how my SW are winning. The tactics haven't changed a lot imo, except now I get closer to Chaos players to try and avoid the baleflamer.

So... SW terminators cannot deep strike?! Just stumbled upon this information... So drop pods full of terminators (well, 5 in each)?

Ignore previous post... Had a noob moment lol So, I played my first game with SW this weekend and all I can say is .... Wow.... I ran 5 drop pods and I think I am addicted to drop pods lol One question I have though, what are people's experience with foot slogging terminators in a SW army. Since they can't deepstrike, I noticed putting 5 each in a drop pods wasn't quite as effective as I had hoped. They held their own, but did not smash things up as much as I would have liked. I do have to say that with drop pods and long fangs in the rear, I kept the fight on the opponents side of the board the whole game!

...what are people's experience with foot slogging terminators in a SW army. Since they can't deepstrike, I noticed putting 5 each in a drop pods wasn't quite as effective as I had hoped.They held their own, but did not smash things up as much as I would have liked.

I was just thinking about the same thing, and maybe an allied SM librarian with Gate of Infinity would be viable for quasi deep striking a bigger Termi-Squad Turn 1. They could hide outside of LOS in case your enemy seizes the initiative.

 Malthor wrote:

...what are people's experience with foot slogging terminators in a SW army. Since they can't deepstrike, I noticed putting 5 each in a drop pods wasn't quite as effective as I had hoped.They held their own, but did not smash things up as much as I would have liked.

I was just thinking about the same thing, and maybe an allied SM librarian with Gate of Infinity would be viable for quasi deep striking a bigger Termi-Squad Turn 1. They could hide outside of LOS in case your enemy seizes the initiative.

I will look into this psychic power you speak of....

On another note, do others take the deathwind launcher on pods? I took it on all of my pods and they didn't seem to make their points back (I also forgot to fire them all during a turn ), but I did get a couple CSM Sonic marines with them so maybe.... I think they are a good psych-weapon, placing 7 large blast templates on an opponent each round (even though you can take saves) kinda messes with your mind. I think they will be much more useful against IG with low armor/cover saves.

The gate of infinity psychic power seems like the perfect way to get a large mass of termies across the table quickly and safely...

Thank goodness there is a thread like this. I have been looking for one to fine tune my army list and get better opinions than what I have in mind.

Hey guys. Is it alright if I could get some input on my army list? It is in another thread, but I do run a footslogging SW army with mass razors.

Care to give it a look please?

Thread could be found here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495264.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is my contribution to this thread.

In case of flyers, SW need transports. Not to ride in, but to hide on the side. Rhinos or Razors are tall enough to cover the wolves from LOS. BUT... they need to be very close, like one inch or less close, so they will be in danger of explosion results if the transports get blown up in their faces. I still think it is worth it.

Flyers have to be near them and many of the times I have played against flyers, they tend to zoom over the transports due to the 18 inch movement rule flyers have when zooming. Sometimes they be in meltagun range.


Another idea I would contribute is the usage of Skyclaws. Don't use them to initiate assault. Use them to bolster Grey Hunters that are already assaulted by the enemy and already in H2H. Avoid assualting first with them.

For two full squads with a power weapon each, it is around 390 points. How you should run them is by assualting the same target with both squads and walk them. Use the jump packs if need be in movement, but I discourage that. Use them when situation demands, but save them to be used in assault. You need that reroll in case you fail to get in assualt range.

What you get for one squad are these. (Using Jump pack)
Attacks: Base (1) + CCW (1) + Berserk Charge (2) + Hammer of the Wrath (1)= 5 attacks per model

For 10 men, you have 36 normal attacks and 4 power weapon attacks. With hammer of the wrath, it is already 10 (follow base strength) S4 AP- auto hits.

Tag team them on the same target, you have 72 normal attacks, 8 power weapon attacks and hammer of the wrath 20 attacks= that is 100 attacks on the charge with jump pack on assualt phase if you footslog the Skyclaws on movement phase. All for 390 points.

If you feel evil and daring, give a Skyclaw a power fist. 3 power fist attack on the charge, but I think it is a waste of points.

Cheaper than your avarage Vanilla Marines terminator squad and you have 20 wounds avaliable as a bonus.

Against MCs, use krak grenades. Tag team on it and you have 20 S6 AP4 attacks. See the that lone carnifex cry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When I read through the thread, I say Razorbacks ate better than Rhinos. Although it is a 6 space transport, pay the 40 points to get the TLHB. Use the Razors or Rhinos as LOS blockers. Even in death, they could also block LOS to your units and them survive longer to better position themselves for assualt or just get close to rapid fire range.

Propitious for me as well -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495004.page

I just traded all my excess CSM for a decent sized SW list. I feel there are a few keys to making the list work. I wa\nted to alpha strike a drop pod list but there are issues with null deployment in 6ed - ICs count against your reserves. So I am dropping empty pods to compensate. It's not terrible as they are cover for my troops if needed. I've no experience playing with SW but plenty playing against them. Thee are no answers for AA - it really is that simple. Above 1500 you need to add allies - preferably IG to make it work.

My observations so far is that WG are key in squads, Logan is a beast and rune priests with divination are really good. I have been iusing MotR - I'm not convinced it is best but I'm running with it for now. I can see doubling up the priests though instead (I just don't have the extra yet.)

Back to WG - I have been using only two configurations
Power Axe/Combi-plasma in GH squads
Cyclone for LG .

great to see that this thread has come alive again.

@ wallacethe5

I do the same thing you describe with sky claws only I use fenrisian wolves. not the same punch because they lack the special weapon and has less amount of attacks but they are sooooo cheap.

SW in drop pods shouldn't need transports to negate flyers as they will usually (or should be) close enough to the enemy after turn 1 so they flyers will just pass over them. And if, for some reason, they want to hover and turn around, they will be exposing rear armor to all the long fangs in the rear. I have only played a few games with drop pods so far, but I am addicted now... depending on what army you are playing against, transports aren't really "protecting" you... comparing the two, now having played both, I completely understand why people have referred to rhinos as "coffins". Plus, with the addition of first blood, they become a liability for victory points.

Looking into the gate of infinity, seems to be the best way to move 10 WG termies with Logan and (maybe) a rune priest (with divination) 24 inches across the table turn 1. That move paired with 3-4 drop pods raining down (confronting enemies or taking objectives) is a great way to circumvent transports. A SM Libby could "ferry" troops across the battle field. Thank you again Malthor for bringing that power to my attention! (Not to mention saving me $100's in buying transport vehicle models!)

Looking into the gate of infinity, seems to be the best way to move 10 WG termies with Logan and (maybe) a rune priest (with divination) 24 inches across the table turn 1.

The problem I see with that approach is I'm taking SM as allies when I really want to be taking IG.

3-4 drop pods raining down (confronting enemies or taking objectives) is a great way to circumvent transports.

This has been my idea as well.. I will test five drop pods but two arrive empty from reserves after turn one. Allows me to alpha strike three pods. I'll see how that goes.

One thing I have noticed is SW cannot take locator beacons on their drop pods... I have yet to see if C:SM can take them, but BA can.... Sending in allied pods with beacons sets the stage for the rest of the assault... as well as bringing in twin MM landspeeders from deepstrike right where you (hopefully) want them... Locator beacon with gate of infinity (not wanting to open a can of worms) can be used to eliminate the scatter for Logan and his crew... I really just would ilke allies to assist with mobility/drop pod placement... I also have been playing with a Lucius pattern drop pod (the rules not the pod lol) and it can take a locator beacon and launch a dread assault to keep the enemy busy/preoccupied.

My favorite SW tactics of 6th include the following(Granted I've only had with SW since 6th ) 1 is serious, 2 is just for fun games.

1) Wolf Guard Gunslingers: At a total of 38 Points per model you can field Wolf Guard with double Plasma Pistols. Stick a Wolf Priest or Logan with them an you have the equivalent of a 12", S7/AP2, Assault 2 Weapon that counts as two CCW for the extra attack in assault. At low points I run a

1x Wolf Priest w/ Meltabombs(110)
5x Wolf Guard w/ 10x Plasma Pistol, Drop Pod (225)

combo and at high points I fill out to

1x Wolf Priest w/ Plasma Pistol, Meltabombs (115)
1x Wolf Priest w/ Plasma Pistol, Meltabombs, Saga of the Beast Slayer(125)
9x Wolf Guard w/ 18x Plasma Pistol, Drop Pod (377)
9x Wolf Guard w/ 18x Plasma Pistol, Drop Pod (377)

These squads can and will 99% of the time annihilate any squad you drop near. I mean who can survive 18 near guaranteed plasma shots?
Drop the Pod and swap in another Wolf Guard for 3 more points for slogging.

2) Termie Wolfguard Droppods: 100% Drop Pod Termie Army. No fear of mishaps, free first turn by always opting to go second. Be sure to place terrain against your opponent in the beginning (ie as far as possible and to the sides of the deployment zone or place a really tiny one). Not possible at 500 points. More efficient as the point total rises. You can also have 1 unit outflank in a Land Raider with the rest in drop pods to achieve the same result.

I'm not sold on a wolf guard with 20 points spent for 2 plasma shots. Combi plasma would save some serious points here at the expense of a second round of plasma shooting. Granted it's a novel idea, and a band of gunslinger wolf guard win the rule of cool when modeled up.

As an aside you pointed out the 9 man squads the same as your 5 man, which may confuse some.

I was hoping the break in between that stated estimated point totals for your army between the two would clear things up. And whether it's worth it comes down to this: Whats more effective. 20 Points for 2 sustainable Plasma Shots or 15 Points for a Power Weapon and a 1 time plasma Shot (20 points if you go for TDA)? Sure a Power Weapon = Win in 90% of Assault Phases but how much of an assault phase will there be after the enemy eats roughly 10-18 Plasma Shots. And while I can't deny that a 2+/5++ is nice I'll take my chances dealing more hurt at range and sticking with a 3+. Clearly this should not be sent after a Tarpit player and never more than 2 fully kitted Drop Teams. Hell its fine to hold them back at the 5 WG/1 RP stage. They still kick serious ass

I'm confused, why not just edit the points to be correct?

As for the combi weapon question, since you can't load 5 termies plus the char in a pod you lose that option for preferred enemy which seemed to be your entire point. I figured regular pa wolf guard with combi, though that is not as cool as either the termies or gunslingers would still save points.

Edit: would a Lysander stern guard pod fit your vision better? How much do you value the ability to charge after shooting your pistols on round 2?

Oh? The Points!! ok I'll fix that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Being able to assault is more like gravy. If this was a choice of a Plasmagun instead I'd probably choose it (would probably be cheaper as well). I mean vs Plasma there isn't alot of TEQ that can be deployed en masse. This is meant to be a powerful T1 Alpha and T2 clean up squad or squads that go after high priority targets and become a mental threat to the enemy. I usually have either a lot of Grey Hunters w/ Predators or Long Fangs that pose the real threat but they won't look at them when I melt their face on the first turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think of them as SW Deathmarks

I show that squad dealing 7.5 wounds to infantry of t5 or lower. Ignoring armor is nice, and I admit I have no experience running such a unit as I stuck to combi weapons, but how often do you catch a unit with its pants down? By that I mean out of cover or not somehow protected from ap2. I see this kind of unit dropping down, killing 5 from a squad, and theme targeted by all the short range weapons that have no better target. Do you often drop them with large blocks of grey Hunters in pods? I see them being ignored by long range shooting, but what else are all the bolters going to shoot at but your small yet deadly plasma squad?

Once again this all comes down to tactical drop pod positioning. It'll be very hard for you opponent to have all his units in cover by the time you drop. I don't tend to drop Grey Hunters, preferring to run them up the field into cover on the first turn if they aren't in range of anything. It's not that I can't either. If I do I make sure to drop odd numbers of Pods to get the most down on turn 1.

I have been preferring to drop terminators and a dred (in a Lucius pattern pod) in my enemy's deployment zone to tie them up/contest objectives on their side and drop grey hunters in subsequent turns to capture objectives. All the while, the long fangs are on a skyshield landing pad in the back raining down plasma (which I will someday regret with my terminators in the line of fire lol) and rockets.

I tried plasma gunslingers in the past. I run 9 WG with a rune priest (mainly using Prescience power from the divination table) so I would have 19 TL plasma shots at 12 inches if I could get in range.

I don't pod them, I rhino ride them as escorts to cover the grey hunters or some unfortunate unit that got chewed up by MCs and things with 2+ save. They are a 12 inch bubble threat against flyers that accidently fly over them sometimes when there is not enough place to move around the models but I don't recommend using them to counter said flyers.

However, an interesting thing to note, they are GOLD when playing in terrains where there are many buildings around, like both armies fighting in a city of sorts. OR in games where the field is pack and dense.

Does anyone have any experience so far against the new daemons codex? I am thinking Njal is a good HQ since he has the runic weapon that wounds on a 2+...

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Does anyone have any experience so far against the new daemons codex? I am thinking Njal is a good HQ since he has the runic weapon that wounds on a 2+...

I doubt Njal will stand a chance against daemons in close combat with or without runic weapon, non-monster daemons should be dealt with by bolters, not close combat

Continuity wrote:

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
Does anyone have any experience so far against the new daemons codex? I am thinking Njal is a good HQ since he has the runic weapon that wounds on a 2+...

I doubt Njal will stand a chance against daemons in close combat with or without runic weapon, non-monster daemons should be dealt with by bolters, not close combat

This is what I was thinking (with the bolters)... My hopes would be Njal's storm effects could slow them down. I was planning a gun line defensive army against them. The new daemons seem pretty nasty... I possibly think a null zone C:SM Libby would be a big help (I know this is SW tactica though)

I tried running a single gunslinger Wolf Guard with a pack of scouts the other day. It really up's their potential with ehind enemy lines. Since they can no longer jump into cc to stay alive, they need all the "umph" they can get in that 1 round of fire. That's THE best place for a dual Plasma toting Wolf Guard I've found thus far. This squad is meant to hunt enemy heavy infantry (Long Fangs, Obliterators, Dark Reapers, etc. They usually don't perform very well, but I've got open elite slots and they are cheap. They draw some fire and mess with people's deployment. I figure they're worth it. If they come in to a mess of drop podding Grey Hunters, they may actually stay alive and put some hurting down. it works if you have a few points to spend and like to use your scouts once in a blue moon.

Wolf Guard, Plasma-Pistol x2
Wolf Scouts x5, Plasma-Gun, Plasma-Pistol