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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Because GW said so?
I am sorry but aren't they the ones who owns Warhammer 40.000? If they say that Space Marines are the only thing standing between Mankind and annihilation ( Ultramarines the Movie ) than that is the truth and nothing else matters, not logic nor reason.

Congrats you got my point!

They work because it's a fantasy universe and reality is handwaved away, hence why it's a Fantasy universe and not really Science Fiction or based on any realistic standing. That's my point.

You can argue entire day that the Guard is better, in my opinion it is because Guardsmen use a to ton ordinance and are perfect to wage long wars. But there is some battles Guard simply cannot win ( 13'th Black Crusade, Zeist Campaign, Armageddon War, Nimbosa Crusade, Battle for Macragge, Tarsis Ultra etc... )

Most of these, again, are either literally hand-waved to be Marine-specific, or are horribly off kilter, like Armageddon where it's described as one of the largest raging warzones yet the Siege of Vraks was a complete side-show of no note and had more troops fighting there.

and this is where Astartes goes in - to win battles ordinary Humans cannot.

And why can't they win it? Largely just because otherwise there's no platform for the Space Marines to exist on. Given the same resources allocated to the IG/IN, they'd have no problems winning such conflicts. Realistically, the entirety of the Traitor Legions could be destroyed in battle in weeks in battle, they're a threat literally "just because".

Givign into account various examples from fluff ( primitive Orks destroy 3 Regiments of Guard with ease

3 guard regiments is maybe 15000 men? About 2.8 seconds of IG recruitment intake, practically nothing.

a minor Hive Fleet destroy 3 million Guardsmen like they were nothing,

Even a minor hive fleet is *huge*, and 3 million guardsmen *are* nothing, given that there are *billions* of regiments each composed of thousands of guardsmen.

Necrons piratically destroying the Imperium's most elite Guard Regiments like they are cockroaches

what exactly are we referring to here?

a minor Tau fighting Cadre defeat four time larger Imperial Guard force etc....)

And yet the Tau empire is driven to exhaustion in the Damocles Gulf crusade by 19 regiments of Imperial Guard...out of billions.

we can see that in many occasions the Guard simply cannot win - and that's where the Astartes come in.

only in the relative short term/small scale, and often literally just because it's written to sound impressive as opposed to a realistic perspective because GW can't keep numbers straight.

All in all, Astartes are made to win battles that Humans cannot win and that s why they are important to the Imperium.

And yet...most of the wars never see a Space Marine and are won all the same...

That's why there's Stormtroopers and Kasrkin and Grenadiers and Sisters of Battle, etc.

They are also important because they are Emperor's will made manifest, where Space Marines go to war it means that place is important to the Emperor himself.

wonderfully symbolic but that's about it.

This gives great morale boast to the troops and their actions actually cut the Guard losses by half or even more sometimes.

Based on what?

They exist for the simple reson why SAS, Navy Seals, Spetnaz and many other exist in today's army's - not to win wars but to win battles that will determinate the outcome of the war.

Actually, more usually, to conduct an operation where fighting is either avoided or minimized altogether, which generally isn't what Space Marines do.

And yet nobody is asking: "Why do we need Navy Seals or Delta Force?".

You're right, but Space Marines are, more often than not, used as heavy infantry in pitched battles and storming fortified positions, being big guardsmen and not as commando's. Even as commando's, they're too few on a galaxy wide scale to be effective for the resources poured into them.

One Space Marine may be equal to (lets just say) 10 IG. But what most dont see is the logistics behind that. What does a space marine need to conduct battle? Ammunition, and possibly food and water eventually. What does 10 guardsmen need? Las rounds, Solid shot, promethium, clothing, food, water, fuel... the list goes on. A Marine is more independent.

There is a pro and cons to each.

Right, but the problem that we are encountering is that it takes decades to make that marine as opposed to a few months of training for each guardsmen, and 1000x the resources to equip that Space Marine, and then there's 10 million guardsmen for each Space Marine

 Shlazaor wrote:
You're right semantics is not a valid arguement. I don't mean to be rude but comparing two entities that share the same weapon and armor to two entities that share the same number of fingers is a gross violation of common sense.

Not really, because they share the same logic, and it's that logic that I'm attacking. The notion that A isn't utterly superior to B because they share one specific quality is not a sensible argument. It's semantics.

 Lynata wrote:
That's the problem, isn't it? Much of the "overall fluff" of 40k is inherently incombatible. It's not meant to exist side by side, and in the past I have quoted GW designers as well as novel authors all agreeing on this. Compare both Sisters and Marines how they and their equipment are depicted in GW's books to how they are described in, for example, FFG's Dark Heresy and Deathwatch RPGs. Worlds apart! So unsurprisingly, someone who likes the latter more will have a whole different view on the topic than I have with my continued focus on GW's own material. Same goes for the Black Library novels - actually, there you have an even greater gap as they are written by even more people with less collaboration.

Except in this case, the fluff is not incompatible. The majority of fluff that compares Space Marine prowess to Sisters prowess shows Marines to be vastly superior to Sisters, with a few exceptions. The fluff is pretty consistent on this matter. That you want to pretend half of it doesn't exist because you don't like it is another matter entirely.

but I contest the idea that it is as big as you make it out to be.

I would say that having superior speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aiming ability, and durability would vastly skew any confrontation between a sister and a marine into the Marine's favor, especially considering that bolter rounds barely affect power armor anyway. If you disagree, please provide the fluff that backs up your assertion.

I can look up and quote them if you need proof. And that's just Games Workshop's own material!

Please do. I would love to see fluff that doesn't establish Sisters of being the fodder faction of the Imperium.

Bolter fire very much does affect power armor, it's entirely capable of puncturing it, not all the time but yes, often enough. The FW HH book shows marine armor with bolter impacts going clean through their armor. There's plenty of fluff where bolter fire kills marines through power armor.

Yup, athough it needs to be at close range, a weak spot, or a weakened portion of armor.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Bolter fire very much does affect power armor, it's entirely capable of puncturing it, not all the time but yes, often enough. The FW HH book shows marine armor with bolter impacts going clean through their armor. There's plenty of fluff where bolter fire kills marines through power armor.

And the 4e Chaos Marines codex shows us a Marine being shot at point blank in the helmet/face, and his head just sort of bobs a little.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Bolter fire very much does affect power armor, it's entirely capable of puncturing it, not all the time but yes, often enough. The FW HH book shows marine armor with bolter impacts going clean through their armor. There's plenty of fluff where bolter fire kills marines through power armor.

And the 4e Chaos Marines codex shows us a Marine being shot at point blank in the helmet/face, and his head just sort of bobs a little.

where is that in there? I don't have my book so I'm not sure of which picture, though the SM codex cover has a basic bolter blowing clean through a Chaos marine, through the front chest plate, the back plate and the armored backpack.


Though, much like everything in 40k, it may just be one of those things that varies wildly depending on author/artist.

Shlazaor wrote:They do things normal people cannot and they get it done quickly at the drop of a hat. They aren't meant to protect the galaxy. They are meant to win specific decisive battles that could threaten the galaxy.

I think that is a good point - reaction time/mobility is one of the Marines' biggest advantages. Anything you can do with a Marine Chapter can be done with the Guard ... but it would take much, much longer. Both to get the forces in place as well as to actually fight the campaign. For a single battle, that may not seem like much, but over the course of Imperial history, I would agree that this may have made a notable difference. Perhaps not everywhere and everytime, but some campaigns could have been turned around because one planet could have been won quicker than the enemy was able to mobilise all his forces. On another world, the Imperials were able to hold the line thanks to Astartes backup, causing an entire enemy force to get a bloody nose in a futile attempt to storm the walls, thus preventing a costly campaign to recapture that place that may have cost dozens of regiments that are needed elsewhere.

On a small scale, that's not much. But if you add it up ... over the millennia of conquered or defended territory, planets become systems, systems become sub-sectors, sub-sectors become sectors, both due to the Marines themselves as well as the many forces the Imperium was thus able to deploy on another front?

Vaktathi wrote:All in all, Astartes are made to win battles that Humans cannot win and that s why they are important to the Imperium.

And yet...most of the wars never see a Space Marine and are won all the same...
That's why there's Stormtroopers and Kasrkin and Grenadiers and Sisters of Battle, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And the 4e Chaos Marines codex shows us a Marine being shot at point blank in the helmet/face, and his head just sort of bobs a little.

where is that in there? I don't have my book so I'm not sure of which picture, though the SM codex cover has a basic bolter blowing clean through a Chaos marine, through the front chest plate, the back plate and the armored backpack.


Though, much like everything in 40k, it may just be one of those things that varies wildly depending on author/artist.

It wasn't a picture, but a fluff-description of a battle.

When I am feeling less lazy, I'll look for it again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
If a Space Marines' speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aim and durability were oh-so-superior as you claim, a certain Catachan would not have managed to strangle a CSM Lord to death with a friggin' root.

Okay, seriously, stop this, because frankly every time you mention this you're being dishonest.

Straken is among the most bionically enhanced individuals in the Imperium, so extensively enhanced that his body is as durable as power armour, and his fist is a friggin' chainfist.

He is a very poor example to use to prove your point.

He could butcher nearly every Sister of Battle as well, frankly. I could see Straken wading through a squad of them and ripping them to pieces.

Likewise, if we look at Canoness Praxedes, we have an example of a Battle Sister having engaged a Tyranid Hive Tyrant in single combat, bashing its head in with her power maul.

Then she, you know, died.

Marines however have more and more consistent portrayals of epic heroic deeds of awesomeness.

Marneus Calgar alone has multiple incredibly impressive exploits to his name, more than I can recall from the Sisters of Battle that weren't performed by a Living Saint.

The Imperium needs space marines for roughly the same reason it needs the inquisition. They need that overwelming presence, that failsafe. When a group of spacemarines show up its like something out of mythology, they inspire fear in places were its needed and awe from everyone they pass. In the horus heresy Iron hands short story gaurdsmen go rediculously beyond the human limit for survival simply not to fail the space marines and achieve what nobody thinks can be done. Or in the battle of the fang they turn even children into warriors (seriously a bunch of Fenrisian kids throw grenades a terminators lol). Itd be like if 5 guys walked up and said "hey were gonna kick the spit out of you" then the Rock walks up and says "no worries I got your back".

Void__Dragon wrote:Straken is among the most bionically enhanced individuals in the Imperium, so extensively enhanced that his body is as durable as power armour, and his fist is a friggin' chainfist.
He is a very poor example to use to prove your point.

Actually, I think you missed my point by a long shot. I specifically pointed out that the most extreme examples can be found anywhere - this includes a CSM Lord being strangled (Straken's augmented strength surely would not have affected his magnificently superior reflexes and agility?) just as much as it includes Straken as an extremely badass IG soldier outside the norm. I thought I made that clear with the last sentence of that segment.

Void__Dragon wrote:Then she, you know, died.

That is (a) besides the point (his death doesn't make Captain Tycho's last fight any less awesome either) and (b) actually is a fairly recent addition to the fluff. For whatever reason Ward decided to add it in the new WD Minidex, because apparently he thought this was better than the previous version where Praxedes remains on the planet and misses the evacuation, sparking a legend amongst the faithful that she's still kicking ass even as the world is completely engulfed by 'nids.

Void__Dragon wrote:Marines however have more and more consistent portrayals of epic heroic deeds of awesomeness.

I do not find that particularly surprising, considering that 2/3 of all sentences written in all fluff focus on making Astartes awesome. This does not change the portrayal outside those individual deeds, however. And personally I find the descriptions of standards far more interesting than hundreds of distorted myths and stories.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yup, athough it needs to be at close range, a weak spot, or a weakened portion of armor.

Actually, midrange is probably the most dangerous for a bolter. These things use self propelled shots, remember. They are fired and then a split second after passing the barrel, the rocket on the end of the bolt activates. At close range, a shot has less time to reach full speed, and thus, full impact strength. I think it was in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, where engaging a chaos marine at close range saves a guy's life, because the bolt got lodged in his helmet rather than exploding.

Arcsquad12 wrote:the bolt got lodged in his helmet rather than exploding.

You mean rather than penetrating? I would assume it has to explode either way, by virtue of having a mass-reactive millisecond fuse.

It'd just be a lot better if it explodes outside the helmet rather than inside.

[edit] Actually, scratch that, I was wrong about this! I just checked the Wargear book and apparently the projectile detonates only if it actually pierces the armour, with the fuse activating based on an increase of surrounding mass.
That said, I suppose it could still happen even if the bolt "only" gets stuck, as long as it does punch into something rather than ricocheting off?

[edit 2] Also, the quotes requested by BlaxicanX:

"Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to war zones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance."
- 1E Rogue Trader Rulebook (1987), reprinted in White Dwarf #292 (2004)

"In such cases a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst of circumstances. Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite strike force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by a battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus."
- Citadel Journal #49 (2002)

"Thus the Sisters find themselves in service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships."
- 3E Codex: Witch Hunters (2003)

"This gave us a basis for the character of the army - vengeful warrior-adepts tasked with enforcing the purity of other Imperial organisations. The Rogue Trader art even shows a Battle Sister exacting that vengeance upon a Space Marine, so this seemed particularly appropriate. In fact, the Space Marine is from the Rainbow Warriors Chapter, and as we haven't heard from them for some time I guess the Sisters' mission was successful!"
- White Dwarf #292 (2004), from Andy Hoare's Designer's Notes

"Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause, then the elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against a wayward Chapter."
- Index Astartes IV: Rogue Sons (2004)

"Heretics take many forms. Most are lost humans, whose weak minds have been corrupted by the manifold temptations of a dark and sinister galaxy. None are immune: planetary governors, Imperial Guard commanders and even whole Space Marine Chapters have been declared heretic and been exterminated as such by the Sisters of Battle."
- White Dwarf #382 (October 2011)

I suppose that should do it. Mind you, this is just the stuff that I managed to pick up over the years of my never-ending quest for more obscure SoB fluff in GW's material. I still find new bits every now and then, so I don't claim completeness on this topic.

Oh, but I also promised you something about power armour:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- Codex: Angels of Death

Mind you, "most small arms" sounds more like lasguns than bolters, but I would expect both of them to fall into this category. Naturally, with bolters closer to the 50% protection range, and lasguns more towards the 85% scale. Should be pretty close to the TT rules, actually? Not that this is very surprising, considering that the fluff was crafted around the rules and does not exist like some sort of separate product as if it'd depict an entirely different world with no connection to the tabletop whatsoever.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 niclebel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.

Daemons.

Leman Russ Battle Tanks

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I know a lot of 40K background, and as I studied different sources I have noted one thing.
Using Space Marines is foolish.

Here is what I mean: A tactical marine takes perhaps 70 years to get ready for battle. He needs high-quality training, extremely expensive armor and weapons, and simply consumes a ton of resources.
And yet, look at the losses that the marines take. I am not only talking about the tabletop game itself (where casualties are ludicrous) but I am also talking about the books, for example. My conclusion is that they are so extremely resource-inefficient so that they should have stopped using them long ago. Ten guardsmen is seemingly, according to a quote (Imperial Fists Primarch, I believe, but I am no certain) equivalent to one Space Marine. However, if we look at the cost in time and resources, we are looking at Space Marines consuming a hundred, if not a thousand times the resources a guardsman do, if you count everything in. While I am sure Space Marines have their uses; sudden overwhelming spear-point assaults, for example- surely it is not worth such a cost?

How is their use justified?

70 years? During the Great Crusade, the Dark Angels were able have a battle-ready Astartes only two years post gene-seed implantation. Corax did it even faster with the Emperor's cheat sheet.

 Somedude593 wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 niclebel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.

Daemons.

Leman Russ Battle Tanks

Maybe he wasn't clear

FETHING DAEMONS

You know, as far as the "efficiency" argument goes...

The list of things the Imperium has limited quantities of is long. Space ships, navigators, astropathic communication, tanks, rations, armor, lasguns.

'Warm human bodies' is probably the last thing on the list. They can spare a few million to have access to the use of gene-engineered supersoldiers when they really need them.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Somedude593 wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 niclebel wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There are threats that you can't destroy with sheer numbers. Chaos, for example. Space Marines also allows for extreme force concentration.

I know I'm late to the conversation and it's probably already been said, BUT if there were no Space Marines to begin with, there would be no Chaos Space Marines, therefore guardsmen would be fine.

Daemons.

Leman Russ Battle Tanks

Maybe he wasn't clear

FETHING DAEMONS

Maybe he wasnt clear FETHING LEMAN RUSS TANKS

Daemons > LRBTs

 Grey Templar wrote:
Daemons > LRBTs

Aside from the largest of daemons, I've rarely found this to be the case

Another issue I think we may have missed out on that proves the usefuleness of space marines is technology. The IoM has a limited amount of advanced technology so they want to put it into the hands of some elite badasses who will use it better and be less likely to destroy it in comparison to a IG.

 Shlazaor wrote:
Another issue I think we may have missed out on that proves the usefuleness of space marines is technology. The IoM has a limited amount of advanced technology so they want to put it into the hands of some elite badasses who will use it better and be less likely to destroy it in comparison to a IG.

IIRC that's never really been something mentioned, but the SM's armories make everything themselves so it's not like they're sharing the same production capacity or supply lines as the IG/IN.

Tradition is the real answer.

(op's question)
To decorate boss poles with fancy trophies!

 Melissia wrote:

 Somedude593 wrote:
Im gunna have to reverse you on this..... space marines are referred to as the will of the emporer manifested.....

Not by anyone except he Space Marines.
Quite frankly... People argree.. if a 7 foot tall 2 ton walking tank tells you he is the wrath of god incarnate... then guess what... he is and is anybody really going to correct him on it? Space marines are the symbol of the imperialism might and the minds of imperial citizens are so brainwashed that i wouldnt doubt many of them believe this and more wholeheartedly

 Somedude593 wrote:
Inquisition is

The Emperor's will. Unlike Space Marines, the Inquisition are empowered to work using His authority directly.
the inquisitors true power does nor come from any tie to the emperor... i have not seen any fluff to tie them to him... their real threat is that they are a FETHING INQUISITOR and will drag you to the torture dungeons if you do something they dont like..... That inquisitorial I means that they have a free pass to do anything they want and therefore people are afraid of them simply because they can drag you away midday without anyone stopping them . Also thanks for taking only two words of what i said so that you could insert your opinion without refuting me

 Somedude593 wrote:
Quite frankly... People argree.. if a 7 foot tall 2 ton walking tank tells you he is the wrath of god incarnate...

... then one might shoot him in the face with a boltgun for being e heretic. He would die instantly. There is only one god-- the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind.v Anyone who claims that they are also a god, and therefor the Emperor's equal, is a heretic and thus is consigned to death.

Space Marines do not call themselves gods of war or battle. They may call themselves the Emperor's angels of death, or the Emperor's descendants, and other such epithets-- but in the end, Space Marines are nothing more than His servants regardless. Either servants, or traitors.

And after the Horus Heresy, they are no longer even His closest servants, either.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Daemons > LRBTs

Aside from the largest of daemons, I've rarely found this to be the case

Do what Ciaphas Cain does. Call an artillery strike on them.

if an LRBT won't work, then earthshaker rounds will!

 Melissia wrote:
There is only one god-- the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind.

I dare you to proclaim that during the Great Crusade.

And after the Horus Heresy, they are no longer even His closest servants, either.

Tell that to the Grey Knights - I'd bet a million dollars that even Inquisitors "the Emperor's Will Incarnate" who sneak into the Citadel of Titan without permission would get shot on sight. And even if they did get permission, I dare them to try and enter the Chamber of Purity at the base of Mt. Anarch.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is only one god-- the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind.

I dare you to proclaim that during the Great Crusade.

And after the Horus Heresy, they are no longer even His closest servants, either.

Tell that to the Grey Knights - I'd bet a million dollars that even Inquisitors "the Emperor's Will Incarnate" who sneak into the Citadel of Titan without permission would get shot on sight. And even if they did get permission, I dare them to try and enter the Chamber of Purity at the base of Mt. Anarch.

Where they will be consumed body and soul by Matt Ward on warp dust.

 deathholydeath wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


Tell that to the Grey Knights - I'd bet a million dollars that even Inquisitors "the Emperor's Will Incarnate" who sneak into the Citadel of Titan without permission would get shot on sight. And even if they did get permission, I dare them to try and enter the Chamber of Purity at the base of Mt. Anarch.

Where they will be consumed body and soul by Matt Ward on warp dust.

Nah, they just get shot or worse by the Purifiers.