Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Melissia wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Your base argument is that marines are useless

No, that's a strawman that you put up so that you can be lazy and not actually have to read my posts.

I actually do read them/did read them.
And it is all the same.
As Tadashi said:

Tadashi wrote:Her base argument isn't Astartes are useless - its Sisters are better since they have miracles, devotion, and faith. Nature of said miracles the Ordo Malleus would probably love to investigate...and which the Astartes, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, and everyone else do fine without.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
As Tadashi said:

Oh whoopty fethin' do, Tadashi is wrong about my opinions on 40k. Stop the goddamned presses, this is front page material here. Obviously this is just simply a thing that never happens, aside from all the time.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I actually do read them/did read them.

No. You haven't.

If you did, you'd have seen where I repeatedly said that Astartes have biological advantages over humans. You know, since they do. Oh wait, you didn't see that, so obviously you weren't reading my posts. Or maybe you'd have seen where I said that Sisters of Battle and Astartes consider eachother equals. Multiple times, in fact. Oh wait, you didn't see that, so obviously you weren't reading my posts.

Or if you are reading my posts, you're reading it with an insane bias that allows your mind to ignore most of the content and blindly claim that I'm marine bashing instead. Either way, how about we stop talking about me and start talking about 40k instead?

I'll help you in fact. Let's talk about Marines and why they exist.

The Emperor created Astartes in huge numbers in order to try to have a sizable elite army and conquer the galaxy. That's why they exist, in the sense of "how/why they were created". As for their continued existence, Astartes have a legend built around them, that has built up a tradition that makes them a valuable asset for the Imperium. Although Astartes collectively lost the favor of the Emperor because of the Horus Heresy, they're still useful as warriors of the Imperium-- at least, when they can be convinced to fight for the Imperium instead of going off on their own little agendas. Then again, the same can be said of the Mechanicus at times, but I digress. So the combination of tradition and usefulness has kept their existence desirable. The existence of the Codex Astartes makes them more tolerable, as it provides strict limitations in order to prevent them from gaining too much power as to cause another horus heresy. So... that's why they exist in terms of "why they continue to exist".

And, of course, why they REALLY exist-- to sell models. But this is a background forum, so that's less important here.

/thread

now from the veiwpoint of a common soldier upon the battle field, that may have been in prior engagements that also involved SOB and SM, I would much rather see the SOB show up..with the Astartes you have a fairly narrow chance of getting one of the warm huggy chapters ( UM, Salamanders ) and may get ..oh I dont know..Fleshtearers, or Blooddrinkers..or Charchardons, or my boys the MM..at which point, your just kinda in the way.

gimme the daughters of the Emporer in that case everytime, cause at least you only have to worry bout just the enemy killing you

Plus sisters are nicer to look at

Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.

And to be fair, Ultramarines and Ultramarine descended chapters are supposed to be the most common of the Marines. I forgot how common though, hrm.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
now from the veiwpoint of a common soldier upon the battle field, that may have been in prior engagements that also involved SOB and SM, I would much rather see the SOB show up..with the Astartes you have a fairly narrow chance of getting one of the warm huggy chapters ( UM, Salamanders ) and may get ..oh I dont know..Fleshtearers, or Blooddrinkers..or Charchardons, or my boys the MM..at which point, your just kinda in the way.

gimme the daughters of the Emporer in that case everytime, cause at least you only have to worry bout just the enemy killing you

Plus sisters are nicer to look at

Good luck if the Grey Knights arrive - Sisters or not, the Ordo Malleus will kill everything non-Astartes to maintain secrecy.

 Melissia wrote:
So saying that Space Marines are not unbeatable gods of war is bashing them?

Feth it. If this is the baseline for your argument, I think I'm gonna just go watch red vs blue instead.

No, but harping on about their flaws while sidestepping their qualities is.

Why do you approach discussions with an us vs them approach?

ahhh ,But Melissa you forget the one power that countermands all others in war is the power of murphy's laws...

So gimme the much more (less Hazardous to be around ) 100% SOB chance then the 70% or even worse chance with the SM.

Give murphy a inch and he will kill you for it.

and I lump the Grey knights up there with having the enemy getting reinforced for my guardsmans survival POV, I even remember their fluff when a squad of GK cost 1200pts and were all level 4 psychers or somesuch...and the best that could happen is be a SM around them..at least then you just got mindwiped..everyone else..well theres the door.

(not a big fan of the GKs myself )

 Melissia wrote:
Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.

And to be fair, Ultramarines and Ultramarine descended chapters are supposed to be the most common of the Marines. I forgot how common though, hrm.

IIRC about two thirds.

 Melissia wrote:
Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.

Not to mention deviating from tactical plans in favor of 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges. On the other hand, Astartes and Guardsmen follow the tactical and strategic dictates of the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Imperialis.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, but harping on about their flaws while sidestepping their qualities is.

Good thing I'm not doing that, then.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.

Not to mention deviating from tactical plans in favor of 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges. On the other hand, Astartes and Guardsmen follow the tactical and strategic dictates of the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Imperialis.

I can think of many examples where the Astartes and the Guard have undertaken 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges - with varing degrees of success depending on the oppostion.

That Mongolian Legion beat some Necrons which were fething gak up with a cavalry charge.

fething horses man.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well, you do have to worry about showing more zeal than normal while Sisters are around. After all, Sisters are always on the look out for heresy.

Not to mention deviating from tactical plans in favor of 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges. On the other hand, Astartes and Guardsmen follow the tactical and strategic dictates of the Codex Astartes and the Tactica Imperialis.

I can think of many examples where the Astartes and the Guard have undertaken 'zealous' frontal attacks and banzai charges - with varing degrees of success depending on the oppostion.

Only when the Codex Astartes and Tactica Imperialis dictate it as appropriate - the Sisters do it as a matter of course. Where WWII-era Japanese soldiers had nationalism, these girls have zeal, and they put the IJA to shame.

Why do you have a Sister of Battle as your sig?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why do you have a Sister of Battle as your sig?

Because she's pretty, plain and simple (shrugs).

But you admit to disliking them.

I dunno, I just think it's weird.

You won't catch me with a Leman Russ avatar or sig, no matter how pretty he is.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
But you admit to disliking them.

I dunno, I just think it's weird.

Meh...when the Emperor orders the Ecclesiarchy burned down, he'll have the Sisters kneel before him ala Word Bearers at Monarchia. The only I dislike about them is their 'faith'. Especially since the Emperor proscribed his own worship.

While that faith may not have been what the Emperor had in mind, fact of the matter is that it is necessary in the 41st millenium for survival.

Faith for the Emperor is one of the few things that keeps mortal man's spirits from crumbling, the Space Marines could not withstand those that assail the Imperium alone, despite their considerable might.

Also, I am moderately certain there is a fluff piece or story where the Emperor, though not really happy with the current state of things, is content with the current Imperium, not ashamed by it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Faith for the Emperor is one of the few things that keeps mortal man's spirits from crumbling, the Space Marines could not withstand those that assail the Imperium alone, despite their considerable might.

But Space Marines don't believe in the Emperor's divinity. And the Imperial Army did well even without faith during the Horus Heresy. The Lectitio Divinitatus and other such cults were constantly persecuted by the Imperial Administration all the way to the Siege of Terra.

That's cool.

What's your point though?

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Also, I am moderately certain there is a fluff piece or story where the Emperor, though not really happy with the current state of things, is content with the current Imperium, not ashamed by it.

In his audience with Draco, he admitted the Imperium's status as a necessity, but he implied he disliked/hated it. Since the Emperor is still Human for all his power, its credits to carrots that if he had the chance, he'd find a way to end this fiasco.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's cool.

What's your point though?

That faith is not a necessity for victory/survival.

In an absolute sense, no, but in a practical sense? Without it, it is more probable that humanity would be dead.

The Emperor is not human at all IMHO.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
In an absolute sense, no, but in a practical sense? Without it, it is more probable that humanity would be dead.

Which is why he tolerates it for now. Without his direct guidance, there's no other way.

The Emperor is not human at all IMHO.

Not Human as we know it. He is the first, and greatest, of the psychic next-generation Humans. Psychic Inquisitors may be counted as weaker members of this species, with other Imperial psykers (Librarians, Astropaths, and so on) being catch-up mods. The ones killed/sacrificed to power the Astronomican are just 'gakky' prototypes.

Considering how it ended up with his guidance... Well yeah.

He is so far-removed from humanity in a mental sense that any relationship to them as a species is pretty much meaningless, honestly.

He is a massive psychic presence rivaling the Chaos Gods themselves in the Warp, only Gork and Mork are more powerful than he is there, and they are the gestalt of the entire Ork race's psyche.

Granted, I acknowledge that my interpretation of the Emperor might not be what the writers had in mind, but he comes across as colossally douchey and inhuman to me, far less human than the Primarchs he created.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Considering how it ended up with his guidance... Well yeah.

Still a lot better than this theocratic oligarchy of a nightmare (spits).

He is so far-removed from humanity in a mental sense that any relationship to them as a species is pretty much meaningless, honestly.

He is a massive psychic presence rivaling the Chaos Gods themselves in the Warp, only Gork and Mork are more powerful than he is there, and they are the gestalt of the entire Ork race's psyche.

Granted, I acknowledge that my interpretation of the Emperor might not be what the writers had in mind, but he comes across as colossally douchey and inhuman to me, far less human than the Primarchs he created.

That's why the only description for his power is 'godlike'. Even the Eldar acknowledged him - something they never do to anyone outside their species. And Eldrad is supposed to know the Emperor...my guess is, he met the Emperor before he became Emperor, tried to dissuade him, and when the Emperor refused, tried to kill him. Only to get their asses handed to them. I imagine Eldrad barely escaped with his life, or the Emperor let him go as an insult.

Um, okay, lol? I'm not sure how to respond to any of that.

 Lynata wrote:
The fluff is not consistent when there is clearly a difference in how this comparison is depicted based on source origin. I never said I want to pretend it "does not exist" (in fact I clearly pointed out that one vision is as good as another), I am pointing out that assuming the fluff is in any way uniform and even meant to coexist when there are so many obvious contradictions is a fallacy.

The fluff is consistent because the majority of the fluff checks out with itself. In the majority of fluff that show Space Marines fighting Sisters, we're shown Space Marines decimating Sororitas. Thus, the fluff is consistent with itself.

In a one-on-one, with both combatants having an equal amount of battlefield experience and clear line of sight towards each other, I'd agree. But as I said, circumstances.

With the proper circumstances, a Guardsmen can kill Kaldor Driego in close-quarters combat. "Circumstances" have too many variables to be of any use in an objective discussion. And as well, this just proves my point. If Sororitas need specific circumstances in their favor to beat Space Marines, how does that imply that they're on a Space Marine's level?

I'm really not sure from where you have the impression that bolters have little effect on power armour; even the game itself certainly shows us that Space Marines drop easily to bolter fire.

"One of the loyalists heard the pounding of their armored boots and turned, his bolter ready. The muzzle of his bolter flared and Adrastus felt three solid impacts to the left side of his chest. Spitting back a curse, he hurled himself at the Space Marine.

"Die, cowardly dog!" Bellowed Andrastus, firing his bolt pistol into the face of his victim.

The Space Marine recoiled under the salvo, but brought up his bolter in time to smash aside Andrastus' sword arm as it came down for the killing blow. Andrastus launched at the Imperial, bearing them both down to the ground..." - No Mercy, No Forgiveness; pg. 45, Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition

As well, in every SM vs. CSM fight in the Night Lords trilogy, as well as in Brothers of the Snake, there's numerous descriptions of bolt rounds basically denting /shattering armor, but not piercing it.

If a Space Marines' speed, agility, reflexes, strength, aim and durability were oh-so-superior as you claim, a certain Catachan would not have managed to strangle a CSM Lord to death with a friggin' root.

Tell that to the squad of girls who got mangled by a single Flesh Tearer who'd succumbed to the Black Rage in ADB's short story.

Likewise, if we look at Canoness Praxedes, we have an example of a Battle Sister having engaged a Tyranid Hive Tyrant in single combat, bashing its head in with her power maul.

Wow, something Space Marines do every day!

In GW material, we have examples of epic feats and stupid deaths for both Marines and Sisters. The average for both is somewhere in-between, so I would advise not just focusing on heroic legends but endeavouring to find the sweet spot that is in line with any and all impressions from a single source origin, ideally with a focus on unbiased technical descriptions (yes, they do exist even in GW books - they're rare but they exist!) rather than tales of certain individual feats that may well be exceptions from the rule.

The "norm" shows Space Marines as being far superior soldiers to Sororitas in every way.

 Lynata wrote:
[quote=Arcsquad12
[edit 2] Also, the quotes requested by BlaxicanX:

"Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to war zones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance."
- 1E Rogue Trader Rulebook (1987), reprinted in White Dwarf #292 (2004)

"In such cases a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst of circumstances. Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite strike force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by a battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus."
- Citadel Journal #49 (2002)

"Thus the Sisters find themselves in service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships."
- 3E Codex: Witch Hunters (2003)

"This gave us a basis for the character of the army - vengeful warrior-adepts tasked with enforcing the purity of other Imperial organisations. The Rogue Trader art even shows a Battle Sister exacting that vengeance upon a Space Marine, so this seemed particularly appropriate. In fact, the Space Marine is from the Rainbow Warriors Chapter, and as we haven't heard from them for some time I guess the Sisters' mission was successful!"
- White Dwarf #292 (2004), from Andy Hoare's Designer's Notes

"Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause, then the elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against a wayward Chapter."
- Index Astartes IV: Rogue Sons (2004)

"Heretics take many forms. Most are lost humans, whose weak minds have been corrupted by the manifold temptations of a dark and sinister galaxy. None are immune: planetary governors, Imperial Guard commanders and even whole Space Marine Chapters have been declared heretic and been exterminated as such by the Sisters of Battle."
- White Dwarf #382 (October 2011)

I suppose that should do it. Mind you, this is just the stuff that I managed to pick up over the years of my never-ending quest for more obscure SoB fluff in GW's material. I still find new bits every now and then, so I don't claim completeness on this topic.

Oh, but I also promised you something about power armour:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- Codex: Angels of Death

Mind you, "most small arms" sounds more like lasguns than bolters, but I would expect both of them to fall into this category. Naturally, with bolters closer to the 50% protection range, and lasguns more towards the 85% scale. Should be pretty close to the TT rules, actually? Not that this is very surprising, considering that the fluff was crafted around the rules and does not exist like some sort of separate product as if it'd depict an entirely different world with no connection to the tabletop whatsoever.

Well, thanks for taking the time and effort to compile all of this stuff, it seems like a lot of work.

Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. I'm well aware of the fact that Sororitas are used to cull renegade chapters, in fact I stated as much earlier in the discussion. However, what I was asking for was fluff that would imply that Sisters can stand toe to toe with Marines on equal footing. These quotes don't do that.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Likewise, if we look at Canoness Praxedes, we have an example of a Battle Sister having engaged a Tyranid Hive Tyrant in single combat, bashing its head in with her power maul.

Wow, something Space Marines do every day!

Usually with their bare hands, a la Mephiston

Oh, and let's bring up a Space Marine that is around the same as a living saint but not actually one: the Sanguinor!
He killed one of the mightiest demons of Khorne by using his jump pack. Never heard of any of the two done by non astartes.

Also, Mephiston has defended the entrence to a hive city for 5 days against a tyranid horde non-stop. No rest, no food, etc. That is something no non astartes can do.
They just can't.
Maybe the mightiest living saints, but those are less common.

Space Marines are FAR more likely to get killed by a Hive Tyrant in close combat than to kill it. The average marine, just like the average Sister or the average Guardsman, stands very little chance of killing a hive tyrant in close combat.

This isn't something Marines do "every day". That's just pointless fanwankery.

 Melissia wrote:
Space Marines are FAR more likely to get killed by a Hive Tyrant in close combat than to kill it. The average marine, just like the average Sister or the average Guardsman, stands very little chance of killing a hive tyrant in close combat.

This isn't something Marines do "every day". That's just pointless fanwankery.

Agreed. Anybody taking a tyrant down in combat is exceptional.