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 KingDeath wrote:


Space is big and most engagements in the setting are fought at (tens or even hundreds of ) thousands of kilometres. Blindly pumping ammunition into space won't help at all. Laying mines is equaly foolish ( once again, space is realy big ) unless one has a very specific and narrow location which can be mined.
Space is also mostly empty, even asteroid fields. That GW thought it was necessary to add rules for flying trough asteroid fields is either a sign of their relative lack of knowledge or they simply adhere
to the quite common trope of dense asteroid fields. There are also no shockwaves in space, simply because there is no carrier medium like air.

The best way to fight Eldar ships is to get as close as possible and hope that massed broadsides in the general direction of the enemy will do the job.

Or use a ship from the Golden Age of Technology (the Slaughtersong or other ships of its class) or a ship designed using Golden Age-level technology (the Furious Abyss or the pre-Heresy Pride of the Emperor and other similar vessels). Show those pointy-eared limp-wrists what it means to challenge the Human race.

EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.

Depending on the author sometimes you can't see the Eldar vessels with the naked eye either - especially if not moving under own power, but waiting in ambush.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Depending on the author sometimes you can't see the Eldar vessels with the naked eye either - especially if not moving under own power, but waiting in ambush.

Ships flying in proper formation are more than capable of breaking an ambush.

 Tadashi wrote:


Or use a ship from the Golden Age of Technology (the Slaughtersong or other ships of its class) or a ship designed using Golden Age-level technology (the Furious Abyss or the pre-Heresy Pride of the Emperor and other similar vessels). Show those pointy-eared limp-wrists what it means to challenge the Human race.

Like there are a lot of those lying around...

EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.

No, we cannot always see Eldar ships. In the BL novel Shadow Point, an Imperial captain remembers how as a junior officer he saw an Eldar ship seemingly hit by a lance shot...only it turned out to be a false image projected by the holofield. Not even naked eyes are reliable.

Your tactic also wouldn't work reliably, and can be shown as such in BFG. Did you not read the BFG rules? Holofields are 2+ save against any targeted attack, which includes lances and torpedoes. Against other other human ships, torpedo waves can be a form of area denial, but Eldar ships can actually run through Imperial torpedo salvos with a good chance of survival, and often their mobility means they don't have to do that in the first place at all.

Cruiser torpedo salvo of 6 torpedoes.
BFG Eldar armour stat of 4+, so on average 3 torpedoes lock on for attack runs.
3/6 torpedoes actually hit once you take holofields into account, i.e. 1/2 a torpedo. In other words, a 50% of doing absolutely nothing, and 50% of a hit.

I don't know whether you're speaking out of some sort of anti-Eldar bias, but the stuff you are trying to claim works against Eldar...doesn't.

Iracundus wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


Or use a ship from the Golden Age of Technology (the Slaughtersong or other ships of its class) or a ship designed using Golden Age-level technology (the Furious Abyss or the pre-Heresy Pride of the Emperor and other similar vessels). Show those pointy-eared limp-wrists what it means to challenge the Human race.

Like there are a lot of those lying around...

Point taken...but against those, Eldar don't stand a chance.

EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.

No, we cannot always see Eldar ships. In the BL novel Shadow Point, an Imperial captain remembers how as a junior officer he saw an Eldar ship seemingly hit by a lance shot...only it turned out to be a false image projected by the holofield.

Your tactic also wouldn't work reliably, and can be shown as such in BFG. Did you not read the BFG rules? Holofields are 2+ save against any targeted attack, which includes lances and torpedoes. For other human ships, torpedo waves can be a form of area denial, but Eldar ships can actually run through Imperial torpedo salvos with a good chance of survival.

Cruiser torpedo salvo of 6 torpedoes.
BFG Eldar armour stat of 4+, so on average 3 torpedoes lock on for attack runs.
3/6 torpedoes actually hit, i.e. 1/2 a torpedo. In other words, a 50% of doing absolutely nothing, and 50% of a hit.

I don't know whether you're speaking out of some sort of anti-Eldar bias, but the stuff you are trying to claim works against Eldar...doesn't.

I don't have BFG - I can only buy what I can afford/find. Or download...so I try and get by with fluff. And even if you have 50% chance, then just engage with superior numbers. Which the Imperial Navy usually does. Three-on-one, I'd like to see the Eldar win.

 Tadashi wrote:

Point taken...but against those, Eldar don't stand a chance.

Also debateable as there is no hard data with which to compare performances.

EDIT: Even with holo-fields, we can see the Eldar ships - just fire the torpedo/lance spread in their direction. Enough will hit to ensure they'll think twice about making another attack run.

No, we cannot always see Eldar ships. In the BL novel Shadow Point, an Imperial captain remembers how as a junior officer he saw an Eldar ship seemingly hit by a lance shot...only it turned out to be a false image projected by the holofield.

Your tactic also wouldn't work reliably, and can be shown as such in BFG. Did you not read the BFG rules? Holofields are 2+ save against any targeted attack, which includes lances and torpedoes. For other human ships, torpedo waves can be a form of area denial, but Eldar ships can actually run through Imperial torpedo salvos with a good chance of survival.

Cruiser torpedo salvo of 6 torpedoes.
BFG Eldar armour stat of 4+, so on average 3 torpedoes lock on for attack runs.
3/6 torpedoes actually hit, i.e. 1/2 a torpedo. In other words, a 50% of doing absolutely nothing, and 50% of a hit.

I don't know whether you're speaking out of some sort of anti-Eldar bias, but the stuff you are trying to claim works against Eldar...doesn't.

I don't have BFG - I can only buy what I can afford/find. Or download...so I try and get by with fluff. And even if you have 50% chance, then just engage with superior numbers. Which the Imperial Navy usually does. Three-on-one, I'd like to see the Eldar win.

Not an excuse. BFG is free to download from GW.

The Imperial Navy actually usually does not have numerical superiority until it masses a fleet together. In normal operations, a sector's fleet is spread out on patrols (as per the BFG rulebook), which gives attackers, Eldar or human, usually the advantage of local superiority or at least even numbers.

There is a reason there is the Imperial naval saying "You may as well try to catch starlight as bring Eldar to battle." (BFG) The Eldar bases of operation are unknown and concealed to be hard to find. The Eldar are almost always the attacker, not defender, and can thus mostly pick and choose their battles (and this is also reflected in official BFG campaign rules). If you mass an armada, the Eldar won't face it in a face to face slugging match, and strike elsewhere instead.

Iracundus wrote:


Not an excuse. BFG is free to download from GW.

Well, I didn't know that...thanks for the info.

The Imperial Navy actually usually does not have numerical superiority until it masses a fleet together. In normal operations, a sector's fleet is spread out on patrols (as per the BFG rulebook), which gives attackers, Eldar or human, usually the advantage of local superiority or at least even numbers.

There is a reason there is the Imperial naval saying "You may as well try to catch starlight as bring Eldar to battle." (BFG) The Eldar bases of operation are unknown and concealed to be hard to find. The Eldar are almost always the attacker, not defender, and can thus mostly pick and choose their battles (and this is also reflected in official BFG campaign rules). If you mass an armada, the Eldar won't face it in a face to face slugging match, and strike elsewhere instead.

Then attack something that will force them to engage - Maiden Worlds or Craftworlds, or even an ancient Webway Gate on some backwater world. The best defense is a good offense.

 Tadashi wrote:


Then attack something that will force them to engage - Maiden Worlds or Craftworlds, or even an ancient Webway Gate on some backwater world. The best defense is a good offense.

For what reason? Naval engagements against the Eldar tend to be costly if they are won at all. Larger imperial warships on the other hand take decades and in some cases even centuries to build.
To wage a largely unnecessary and costly war ( sure, corsair attacks and meddling craftworlds are annoying but rarely of critical importance ) for little gain is counter productive.
Why you assume that Dark age of Technology warships are necessarily superior to equaly sized Eldar warships is somewhat puzzling. Ultimately they aren't much different from what the Imperium is still using, after all the height of human technology is found in the Imperium's spaceships.

 Tadashi wrote:

The Imperial Navy actually usually does not have numerical superiority until it masses a fleet together. In normal operations, a sector's fleet is spread out on patrols (as per the BFG rulebook), which gives attackers, Eldar or human, usually the advantage of local superiority or at least even numbers.

There is a reason there is the Imperial naval saying "You may as well try to catch starlight as bring Eldar to battle." (BFG) The Eldar bases of operation are unknown and concealed to be hard to find. The Eldar are almost always the attacker, not defender, and can thus mostly pick and choose their battles (and this is also reflected in official BFG campaign rules). If you mass an armada, the Eldar won't face it in a face to face slugging match, and strike elsewhere instead.

Then attack something that will force them to engage - Maiden Worlds or Craftworlds, or even an ancient Webway Gate on some backwater world. The best defense is a good offense.

Again you just whip out these suggestions as if it were so easy and straightforward to accomplish.

The Eldar are hard to engage precisely because they have no easily known fixed assets for the Imperium to pick on. The Imperium for the most part can't even distinguish between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar, let alone know what are Maiden Worlds or which ones might be linked to one even smaller subset of Eldar such as a specific Craftworld or a specific Corsair group. Only a few people such as the Inquisition would have any idea that the strange structure on a world might be linked to the Eldar, and then it might not be known whether it is important or trivial, functional or non-functional. That is before we even come to Craftworld fleets as opposed to just Eldar corsair fleets, and these Craftworld fleets are described as being a major threat to Imperial fleets:

Although Eldar Corsairs are a constant threat to merchant shipping, they very rarely pose a major threat to Imperial battlefleets. The same cannot be said of the dozens of fleets of Eldar ships that protect each Eldar Craftworld. Each of these Craftworld warfleets is a deadly and highly potent force that is capable of laying waste to an entire sub-sector.

-Doom of the Eldar,
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350029a_BFG_Doom_of_the_Eldar.pdf

An entire Craftworld was in the Gothic Sector during the Gothic War yet the Imperium never could confirm this during or after the war, and neither could the Eldar corsairs be tracked to their base (BFG rulebook p. 96). The events of the Gothic War spanned 21 years, from 139.M41 to 160.M41. Twenty one years of war and anti-pirate operations, and still no success in finding them let alone actually attacking them.

The solutions you keep posting are all easy to say, but difficult or near impossible to do with any realistic chance of success.

It's like saying the solution to technological decline and the problems of the Imperium is easy: just have everyone stop being superstitious and learn to fix the Emperor's Throne.
Easy to say, difficult to impossible to do.

Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.

An entire Craftworld was in the Gothic Sector during the Gothic War yet the Imperium never could confirm this during or after the war, and neither could the Eldar corsairs be tracked to their base (BFG rulebook p. 96). The events of the Gothic War spanned 21 years, from 139.M41 to 160.M41. Twenty one years of war and anti-pirate operations, and still no success in finding them let alone actually attacking them.

I assume thats the one in Shadowpoint which I have just read having picked up second hand? Good read if a few minor things jar against more recent fluff - did like the authors attempts to flesh out Eldar culture.

On the subject of assaulting Craftworlds - needs a sector fleet or bigger and Astartes support for the boarding (and on topic a bit ; ) ) and even then its going to be a massive drain on resources

 Tadashi wrote:
Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.

A sour grapes excuse and showing clearly your own personal biases and opinions, with your own identification with the Imperium using the word "we". If you are going to try to debate, jingoistic unsupported statements of opinion are not valid points. You are not in the Imperium. You are an outside observer to a fictional universe. Trouble differentiating oneself from one's 40K faction is a sign of heading into fanboy territory.

And for yet further evidence that things aren't so easy:

However, perhaps the most important reason for the Imperium's lack of effort to assault the Eldar is that bringing the elusive race to battle is far easier said than done. Seemingly able to predict and counter the Imperium's every move, the Eldar fade like shadows before a rising sun, disappearing before any battles they do not wish to fight. The only attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld ended with the disaster of Blood Nebula and the loss of an entire sector fleet.

p. 196, 6th edition 40K rulebook

That's not accurate fluff.

There's been at least two Imperial assaults on Craftworlds prior to the Blood Nebula disaster; one on Alaitoc, which ended in a tie, and another Space Marine/Guard joint assault on Craftworld Idharae that ended with the Invader's chapter being nearly wiped out, and the Eldar on the craftworld getting killed to a man.

Being the badasses that they are, Alaitoc proceeded to figure out which chapter had assaulted Idhare, track them down, and 40 years later burnt their fortress-monastery to the ground, killing all but three companies of the chapter.

Love Eldar. They don't feth around.

BlaxicanX wrote:
That's not accurate fluff.

There's been at least two Imperial assaults on Craftworlds prior to the Blood Nebula disaster; one on Alaitoc, which ended in a tie, and another Space Marine/Guard joint assault on Craftworld Idharae that ended with the Invader's chapter being nearly wiped out, and the Eldar on the craftworld getting killed to a man.

Being the badasses that they are, Alaitoc proceeded to figure out which chapter had assaulted Idhare, track them down, and 40 years later burnt their fortress-monastery to the ground, killing all but three companies of the chapter.

Love Eldar. They don't feth around.

It is not actually stated what craftworld was assaulted in the Blood Nebula disaster. Nor is it said when the assault on Alaitoc in the Path of the Eldar BL novels occurred, nor what the human name for the location of the Craftworld was. With these gaps, it is not possible to conclusively rule out the possibility that those two are actually the same incident, particularly as we are given descriptions of heavy fighting in space in the novels.

The quote you provided makes an absolute. There's been at least two documented attacks, on two seperate craftworlds, Alaitoc and Idharae, with two different outcomes. Therefore, the statement "the only attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld" is demonstrably false. "the only attack" implies that there's only been one attack on a Craftworld. Considering that the rulebook covers fluff from the beginning of the crusade, all the way up to M41.999, the chronology of the assaults doesn't matter.

Also, it's doubtful that the Blood Nebulae assault was the Craftworld attack. It's mentioned pretty conclusively within the novel that Alaitoc was in a solar system with planets, hovering around its sun, at the time of the attack. As well, the battle was considered a tie, with the Craftworld actually losing up until the Space Marines chapter decided to cancel the battle. It's never stated that the Imperium loses an entire sector fleet in that battle. All logical inference points to the cryptic "Blood Nebulae incident" being a different incident from the Alaitoc battle.

BlaxicanX wrote:
The quote you provided makes an absolute. There's been at least two documented attacks, on two seperate craftworlds, Alaitoc and Idharae, with two different outcomes. Therefore, the statement "the only attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld" is demonstrably false. "the only attack" implies that there's only been one attack on a Craftworld. Considering that the rulebook covers fluff from the beginning of the crusade, all the way up to M41.999, the chronology of the assaults doesn't matter.

"only attack that the Imperium managed to push home" is the full phrase. Only refers to the only attack that was pushed home, not that there has ever only been 1 attack. Pushed home is not defined. Alaitoc's survival may well disqualify it from being counted as "pushed home". The chronology matters an enormous amount as it determines whether the statements could both be correct as of the time they were made. There is no date given for the attack on Alaitoc. For all we know, it could occur at 999.M41 or even M42. The novel Cadian Blood for example takes place in M42 through a reading of the textual clues, as it occurs 3 years after the 13th Black Crusade first assaulted Cadia which occurs in 999.M41 thus placing the novel in 003.M42.

Also, it's doubtful that the Blood Nebulae assault was the Craftworld attack. It's mentioned pretty conclusively within the novel that Alaitoc was in a solar system with planets, hovering around its sun, at the time of the attack. As well, the battle was considered a tie, with the Craftworld actually losing up until the Space Marines chapter decided to cancel the battle. It's never stated that the Imperium loses an entire sector fleet in that battle. All logical inference points to the cryptic "Blood Nebulae incident" being a different incident from the Alaitoc battle.

A solar system does not preclude being in a nebula. Solar systems have been thought to form within nebulae. It is never stated the Imperium loses a sector fleet but then the story is not told from the POV of the Imperium so one can hardly expect that to be stated in the novels. However the Imperial fleet is shown being pounced upon exit from the warp and ships are shown being destroyed by Eldar fleet attacks in Path of the Seer.

The details you mention still do not rule out the two things being the same incident. Not all logical inferences point to your conclusion. You are resorting to the mistake of assuming your conclusion is the only "logical" outcome and then implying that anything that doesn't lead ot the same conclusion is "illogical". The evidence is not definitively pointing to the two incidents being the same but it is not definitively ruling it out either.

Iracundus wrote:

"only attack that the Imperium managed to push home" is the full phrase. Only refers to the only attack that was pushed home, not that there has ever only been 1 attack. Pushed home is not defined. Alaitoc's survival may well disqualify it from being counted as "pushed home".

... =\

What the heck do you think "pushed home" means? This is literally one of the worst counter-points I have ever seen in the 8 odd years I have been on the internet.

The chronology matters an enormous amount as it determines whether the statements could both be correct as of the time they were made. There is no date given for the attack on Alaitoc. For all we know, it could occur at 999.M41 or even M42. The novel Cadian Blood for example takes place in M42 through a reading of the textual clues, as it occurs 3 years after the 13th Black Crusade first assaulted Cadia which occurs in 999.M41 thus placing the novel in 003.M42.

It's stated in the novels to have taken place in M41. So no.

A solar system does not preclude being in a nebula. Solar systems have been thought to form within nebulae. It is never stated the Imperium loses a sector fleet but then the story is not told from the POV of the Imperium so one can hardly expect that to be stated in the novels. However the Imperial fleet is shown being pounced upon exit from the warp and ships are shown being destroyed by Eldar fleet attacks in Path of the Seer.

The fleet wasn't destroyed, it's stated that despite the Eldar's efforts the Imperium fleet was pushing them back and destroying tons of Eldar ships in return and "it's never stated to not be a Sector fleet" isn't a valid argument. If you're going to claim that the fleet that engaged Alaitoc was a sector fleet, the onus would be on you to prove it.

The details you mention still do not rule out the two things being the same incident. Not all logical inferences point to your conclusion. You are resorting to the mistake of assuming your conclusion is the only "logical" outcome and then implying that anything that doesn't lead ot the same conclusion is "illogical". The evidence is not definitively pointing to the two incidents being the same but it is not definitively ruling it out either.

On the other hand, you have, literally, zero logic or inference that points to the Blood Nebulae incident being the Alaitoc assault. So again I assert, there is far more pointing to the incidences being separate events, than there is pointing to them being the same.

Do you even know what your argument is? In the first half of your post, you insist that Alaitoc isn't the Craftworld assault being referenced in the codex quote, because in your mind, "attack that the Imperium managed to push home onto a craftworld" is somehow different from what happened to Alaitoc, where the Imperial forces pushed through the Eldar's fleet defenses, boarded their Craftworld, and managed to push the Eldar all the way back into their own Craftworld until they were literally fighting in its heart. Yet, half a post down, you're simultaneously arguing that the Alaitoc assault is the Craftworld attack being mentioned in the quote, because you're asserting that the fight took place in the Blood Nebulae. I'm not sure if you're trolling or just crazy, but make up your mind. Is Alaitoc the Craftworld being referenced in the codex quote, or isn't it?

BlaxicanX wrote:

What the heck do you think "pushed home" means? This is literally one of the worst counter-points I have ever seen in the 8 odd years I have been on the internet.

Pushed home can mean anything from actually finding and being able to engage a Craftworld, to being able to land on a Craftworld, or to being able to destroy a Craftworld. Its usage in the text is not apparent or clearly defined. Again just because you see one and only one possible meaning does not mean that is actually the case.

It's stated in the novels to have taken place in M41. So no.

Provide a quote for this claim that the assault on Alaitoc is in M41.

The fleet wasn't destroyed, it's stated that despite the Eldar's efforts the Imperium fleet was pushing them back and destroying tons of Eldar ships in return and "it's never stated to not be a Sector fleet" isn't a valid argument. If you're going to claim that the fleet that engaged Alaitoc was a sector fleet, the onus would be on you to prove it.

See the below quote:

For all practical purposes, a sector's battlefleet is the largest operational naval organisation, under the command of a Lord Admiral.

Each battlefleet consists of 50 to 75 warships of varying size, although in some sectors this will more or less, according to the importance of the sector and the number of enemies it must contend with.

p. 86, Battlefleet Gothic rulebook

The number of ships shown in the novels is clearly more than whatever a single planet can muster, and presses on despite taking many many losses, and despite the involvement of Eldar battleships. This clearly involves the Imperial Navy at a significant level if it is able to advance in the face of battleship opposition. The Gothic Sector was shown to have 2 maybe 3 battleships total prior to the outbreak of the Gothic War and the receiving of reinforcements. Since the Imperial Navy is organized by sector battle fleets, the forces assaulting Alaitoc have to by definition include sector forces, and therefore comprise a sector fleet, at the minimum.

 Blobpie wrote:

Space marines exist for one reason, to win battles that the guard can never win. Such as Ichar IV for example.

So all the Guardsmen and PDF troopers that helped out and did the majority of the fighting don't count when space marines are involved?

 Tadashi wrote:
Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.

Engaging the Eldar when there's no need would be both costly and foolish. The last time the Imperium attacked a Craftworld an entire Sector Fleet was lost, assets that could have been used for something worthwhile instead like keeping supply routes open.

Loved BFG, most balanced game GW has come out with in a long time.

eldar were nasty customers, saw a Void stalker crack a marine battlebarge in half on numerous occassions.

the funny thing is I found it easier to fight eldar with my Ork fleets than Imperial, it was a fun match up. Its also not just eldar lance/battieries that were deadly , their ord was crazy nasty, launching fighters and bombers at them was always a frustrating exercise.

But if you could hit them, the crits and lower hull values would do them in quickly..as I said a very balanced game.

But if you wanna talk nasty..try fighting the necrons with imperial fleet ships.

which BTW the eldar fought very well, necron vs. eldar engagements were really a close run.

I do miss my BFG nights.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Why those two?

A better comparison would be between A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

Two tellings of the same story-- from different perspectives.

I meant in terms of a comparison of quality between a GW product and a BL product dealing with the same army.

Both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns are well-written and good novels, and don't really contradict eachother either.

Well, aside from them contradicting eachother all the time, due to the inherent biases within each book-- biases intentionally put in to the books. The portrayal of the Space Wolves is vastly different between the two books.

Which was the entire POINT of the two books in the first place, I should note-- to show how different the same events are, when taken from the perspective of two different sides. Which is also my point. BL books, and indeed codices, are written from the perspective of one side, never from an impartial narrator. There's no such thing as an impartial narrator in 40k, and you really always need to keep that in mind when you read anything.

 Melissia wrote:
Well, aside from them contradicting eachother all the time, due to the inherent biases within each book-- biases intentionally put in to the books. The portrayal of the Space Wolves is vastly different between the two books.

Which was the entire POINT of the two books in the first place, I should note-- to show how different the same events are, when taken from the perspective of two different sides. Which is also my point. BL books, and indeed codices, are written from the perspective of one side, never from an impartial narrator. There's no such thing as an impartial narrator in 40k, and you really always need to keep that in mind when you read anything.

Those are contradictions based on perspective, not contradictions inherent in the settings presented. That is an entirely different animal from, say, the Necrons in 3e being an implacable legion of doom serving ancient evil gods, and the ones in 5e being metal men overflowing with all these feelings. Feelings, that can be broken.

The portrayal isn't that different. The main difference is that the savage, vicious nature of the Wolves in Prospero Burns is revealed to be an invoked persona, they have taken up the role of executioners for the Emperor, and while brutal and savage, there is a cunning, an intelligence behind it.

The same can be easily said of GW material though. In any Imperial codex, the Orks are a monstrous race of savage berserkers, a horrifying green tide that is all but impossible to stop. In the Ork codex, they're football hooligans in it for a good laugh and a good fight.

Also, I should point out that no single character narrates A Thousand Sons, and indeed, when Ahriman thinks, say, that Leman Russ is a brutal, vicious savage, the writing makes sure to phrase it in such a way for it to be clear that this is Ahriman's view.

I'm honestly not sure what it is you are trying to tell me now, or rather, why you are telling me it.

Quite simply, it's a continuation of my argument that BL books are unreliable sources of information. And they are intentionally so, in fact. Games Workshop does not want to turn 40k in to Star Wars.

 Melissia wrote:
Quite simply, it's a continuation of my argument that BL books are unreliable sources of information. And they are intentionally so, in fact. Games Workshop does not want to turn 40k in to Star Wars.

Too bad the Horus Heresy novels are the new canon for that area of the chronology...

Spetulhu wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.

Engaging the Eldar when there's no need would be both costly and foolish. The last time the Imperium attacked a Craftworld an entire Sector Fleet was lost, assets that could have been used for something worthwhile instead like keeping supply routes open.

And if there is a need?

CLEANSE THE STARS! PURGE THE HEAVENS! SHOW THOSE PITIFUL FOOLS THE MIGHT OF TERRA!

Why is this a ten page argument?

 ENOZONE wrote:
Why is this a ten page argument?

Is something wrong?

 ENOZONE wrote:
Why is this a ten page argument?

Well it isn't really. A lot of it is just off topic nonsense.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Quite simply, it's a continuation of my argument that BL books are unreliable sources of information. And they are intentionally so, in fact. Games Workshop does not want to turn 40k in to Star Wars.

Too bad the Horus Heresy novels are the new canon for that area of the chronology...

Spetulhu wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Meh...I know the Imperium could crush the Eldar if it needed to...we just don't have the need or time to do so.

Engaging the Eldar when there's no need would be both costly and foolish. The last time the Imperium attacked a Craftworld an entire Sector Fleet was lost, assets that could have been used for something worthwhile instead like keeping supply routes open.

And if there is a need?

CLEANSE THE STARS! PURGE THE HEAVENS! SHOW THOSE PITIFUL FOOLS THE MIGHT OF TERRA!

Get eaten by the Tyranids, enslaved by Dark Eldar, corrupted by Chaos, butchered by the Necrons, because you waste your hard to replace ships against relatively minor but very well armed threats.
Even if some find it hard to believe, the Imperium has only limited ressources and has been described that way rather consistently for a long time.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And half the SM will be turn to chaos as well. weeeeeeeeeeeee equality!

It required the direct intervention of the Chaos Gods themselves to manage that feat.

And want to know something else?

Far more normal mortals turned heretic during the Horus Heresy than Space Marines.

Magnus attacked the Fang with two million of the Spireguard he whisked away from Prospero during the Heresy.

That's more than the fighting force of all the Legions combined.

At first, the majority of the Astartes that turned were simply following their commanders, some of whom they have lived with and heard legends about literally their entire lives. You have to remember that it wasn't the full Legions that rebelled, since Horus had to purge a significant number of loyalists from his ranks. The other traitor Primarchs did the same; even gentle Lorgar had every Terra-born battle brother slaughtered. So yes, the traitor rate among the Crusade-era Space Marines isn't as high as implied and is in some way understandable.