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 Kaldor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly

Citation needed.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sources detailing the rate of recruitment. The process of recruitment, the length of time spent in training, yes. But no hard numbers

The Space Wolf trilogy portrayed only a very few recruits every few years, the BA's only once a generation according to the Index Astartes, etc.

Well, while 1,000,000 Marines is only a tiny fraction of the Imperiums soldiers, the Astartes naval forces comprise about 20% of the Imperiums entire naval strength. This lends a lot of credibility to their role as a reaction force.

Where's that 20% come from? I've never read it personally, though I'm sure I could be missing something.

However, going from some BFG fluff, Imperial Sector battlefleets typically field ~75 capital ships, being 200 LY x 200 LY x 200 LY or roughly 8,000,000 LY^3.

If you only assume that one sector out of every 1000 in the Milky Way galaxy is under Imperial control with a sector navy, with the galaxy being 100,000LY x 100,000LY x 1000LY on the small side, means there's 10,000,000,000,000 LY^3, divided by 1000 and split into 8,000,000 LY^3 sectors, you're talking 93,750 IN capital ships, not counting frigates, escorts, transports, etc. Each SM chapter may have, on average, half a dozen capital ships, say a Battle Barge and five Strike cruisers, some SM's will have more, some less. With a thousand chapters, that gives us 6,000 SM capital ships that must double as transports with each SM chapter having perhaps anywhere from 1-3 frigates per capital ship. That's closer to 6-7% of naval strength, and this is assuming the Imperial Navy is hilariously small next to the Imperial Guard by a factor of a thousand, ten thousand or more.

Further, they are experienced and equipped to operate in a wide variety of environments. High or low gravity, toxic or no atmosphere, extreme temperatures, so on and so forth. This also makes it a lot easier for them to respond to any incident. While Guardsmen certainly could be equipped to operate in some of those environments, the extra time spent ensuring you send the right gear to the right regiment, then the right regiment to the right place is probably going to make your reaction force too late to be effective.

Perhaps this might be true, but we've been shown in many GW fluff campaigns that it's not, and again, the vast majority of Imperial wars never see a single Space Marine, and if they can be won without the SM's doing everything that requires any degree of specialization, then it's hard to see why anything else is relevant.


I'm not trying to flat out hate on the SM's here, I'm really just trying to point out why GW's fluff doesn't really make any sot of sense and why 40k must really be seen as a dark Fantasy universe set in space with more than its fair share of hand-waving plot armor compared with any sort of science fiction or realism, even ignoring daemons and the like

Space marines are only really good for fighting Chaos and the Dark eldar, Because where a normal Guardsmen would run away in sheer horror at the sight of demons or grotesque masters of torture a space marine wouldn't and to be honest the Dark eldar get there asses handed to them by the Space marines all the time, A space marine strike cruiser was once EMP'd and pulled into Commoragh and it was just sat there disabled and the dark eldar forces in Commoragh tried for a month straight to get in and capture some of the space marines inside and they couldn't. The dark eldar also didn't know humans possessed any Psychic abilities and believe the ship unable to call for help but a Psyker sent out a distress signal and the call for help was answered by 3 space marine companys who just walked in and took the ship back. 1million Guardsmen could never achieve this in the middle of Commoragh.

 Vaktathi wrote:
However, going from some BFG fluff, Imperial Sector battlefleets typically field ~75 capital ships, being 200 LY x 200 LY x 200 LY or roughly 8,000,000 LY^3.

If you only assume that one sector out of every 1000 in the Milky Way galaxy is under Imperial control with a sector navy, with the galaxy being 100,000LY x 100,000LY x 1000LY on the small side, means there's 10,000,000,000,000 LY^3, divided by 1000 and split into 8,000,000 LY^3 sectors, you're talking 93,750 IN capital ships, not counting frigates, escorts, transports, etc. Each SM chapter may have, on average, half a dozen capital ships, say a Battle Barge and five Strike cruisers, some SM's will have more, some less. With a thousand chapters, that gives us 6,000 SM capital ships that must double as transports with each SM chapter having perhaps anywhere from 1-3 frigates per capital ship. That's closer to 6-7% of naval strength, and this is assuming the Imperial Navy is hilariously small next to the Imperial Guard by a factor of a thousand, ten thousand or more.

A couple of minor number changes:

BFG gives the total value of ships. Not just capital ships.

As such, a Marine fleet is more likely to include ~20 ships. Battlebarge estimates are usually given as 1 to 3, so I think 2 per chapter is a solid guess, and half a dozen strike cruisers at a minimum, and a dozen escorts. This gives us 20 per chapter, or 20,000 ships total.

if they can be won without the SM's doing everything that requires any degree of specialization, then it's hard to see why anything else is relevant.

Well, when GW writes a story or a campaign setting, it has to be as generic as possible. While we know that a lot of battles will be fought for habitable worlds, we also know that many other worlds are completely unsuitable to human life. Throwing millions and millions of Cadians or Catachans into an engagement is useless if the radiation levels kill them within minutes. But that makes for a very boring read where the reader cannot hear about the exploits of his favourite faction, so GW engineers a situation where a massive ground engagement is required, and the conditions happily match those here on Earth.

If the setting was a bit more accurate to the background, the IG would be a relic of the past. The Navy would be the main military army of the Imperium, and we'd all be playing BFG.


I'm not trying to flat out hate on the SM's here, I'm really just trying to point out why GW's fluff doesn't really make any sot of sense and why 40k must really be seen as a dark Fantasy universe set in space with more than its fair share of hand-waving plot armor compared with any sort of science fiction or realism, even ignoring daemons and the like

 Kaldor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly

Citation needed.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sources detailing the rate of recruitment. The process of recruitment, the length of time spent in training, yes. But no hard numbers

if you've only got a million marines over a galaxy, they're not really seemingly going to be responding to conflicts much more than the Guard is, and thus their point as a "rapid reaction" force is moot.

Well, while 1,000,000 Marines is only a tiny fraction of the Imperiums soldiers, the Astartes naval forces comprise about 20% of the Imperiums entire naval strength. This lends a lot of credibility to their role as a reaction force.

Further, they are experienced and equipped to operate in a wide variety of environments. High or low gravity, toxic or no atmosphere, extreme temperatures, so on and so forth. This also makes it a lot easier for them to respond to any incident. While Guardsmen certainly could be equipped to operate in some of those environments, the extra time spent ensuring you send the right gear to the right regiment, then the right regiment to the right place is probably going to make your reaction force too late to be effective.

For the record I think space marine reaction time has more to do with planetary strategy and battlefield tactics than galactic strategy though the any enviroment arguement is a good one.

To deliver the Emperor's Will when all else fails.

They provide fodder for the Waaagh!

 Kaldor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
We have all sorts of fluff that shows SM's recruit very slowly

Citation needed.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sources detailing the rate of recruitment. The process of recruitment, the length of time spent in training, yes. But no hard numbers

Even the length of time spent in training seems to vary.

The Dark Angels managed to refine their process so well that their recruits went from initial implantation to full-fledged battle brother in just under 2 years (with a 98% success rate, to boot). Basic training was given to them while they were human/transforming acolytes. In Deliverance Lost (*spit* terrible book), Corax makes super Astartes within a few months that could match veterans in combat.

First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train. It takes each marine a decade at most to accomplish the scout, devastator and assualt marine rotations. Before that it takes a trainee 6 months to finish chapter trials and another few months of serguries before entering the great sleep. So a full fledged tactical marine can be forged in about 32 years.

And SM's only exists for the most important and vital of missions.

Like in todays military in America we only have round about 2,000 navy seals compared to the several million other military members we possess. Navy Seals only participate in the most vital missions.

Though a controversial comparison, I believe it does make the point. SM's are limited but they are extreme badasses. The IG are ultimately the true heroes of the Imperium despite their lack of acknowledgement. SM's exist only to boost mankinds strength and act as its iron arm of doom.

(Also, I only meant to use Americas miliary to give insight, please do not comment about America as it is not part of the discussion)

Thread necro to hell much?

Because the emperor was not a very smart man and quite short sighted.

Like this thread necro.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Continued from previous thread (That was duplicate)

Psienesis wrote:
Yeah and how many space marine chapters go renegade again? They are probably causing more harm than good.


A lot, but not as many as Imperial Guard Regiments do.

To be honest it's usually singular marines or squads that go renegade. It is very rare that a chapter in its entirety turns.

True.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Because the emperor was not a very smart man and quite short sighted.

Like this thread necro.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Continued from previous thread (That was duplicate)

Psienesis wrote:
Yeah and how many space marine chapters go renegade again? They are probably causing more harm than good.


A lot, but not as many as Imperial Guard Regiments do.

To be honest it's usually singular marines or squads that go renegade. It is very rare that a chapter in its entirety turns.

True.

As I was saying in the previous thread, SM's are way to exaggerated by GW. It's very embarrassing for SM fanboys/girls to continue talking about SM's with how jacked on stupidity they are. I am a fair and compassionate writer and I am writing a story about SM's and their combat doctrine in an attempt to put more logic and believability in the entire faction. They are in need of logical resurrection...

I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

A timescale in the grim darkness of 40k is very important. Humanity needs to add more brute strength to the forces of the IG and the SM's suffice as such.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.

to relate Imperium fluff to real life :

Does your average nation need three dozen , or four dozen, or fifteen dozen, different police forces , same thing with intelligence services, and all the little "elites" in the military forces. Different uniforms, patches, badges , names and titles are personally gratifying. As regards the practical side of things , every new and different organization or group represents a potential power base for the ambitious, and for the not so ambitious it means another bureaucracy available to conveniently fill your rice bowl. It very often means a terribly wasteful duplication of effort, and at worst the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, or they even deliberately work at cross-purposes due to turf battles and rivalry.
One does not have to suspend disbelief to buy Imperium fluff . On the contrary, one might rather not take a critical look at the here and now .

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.

So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.

So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.

Um, time is vital to the Imperium.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.

So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.

You have an erroneous concept of how vital time is to the Imperium.

When a Forge World that is supplying needed munitions to a Crusade Fleet comes under another threat, it is *absolutely* vital that said threat is dealt with as quickly as possible, for example.

And while it might take SM weeks to get from one world to the next, weeks are much, much better than the years it can take to assemble an IN fleet to transport 500 Regiments of Guardsmen from whatever hub-world they gather the ground forces at before loading them on starships to ferry them somewhere else. The SM possess their own Fleet resources.

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I still think Space Marines are useless. Imperial Guard can do anything Space Marines can do better than Space Marines, given an appropriate timescale.

That's the problem and, also, the point of the Space Marines. The IG can take *years* to get where they are needed. The Space Marines can be there *now*.

So what if the Space Marines can do it now? Time isn't an important thing to the Imperium. Also, aren't most Space Marines constantly engaged in wars? They would also take time to traverse systems to get to where they needed to be.

You have an erroneous concept of how vital time is to the Imperium.

When a Forge World that is supplying needed munitions to a Crusade Fleet comes under another threat, it is *absolutely* vital that said threat is dealt with as quickly as possible, for example.

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

There's this thing about the fact that Space Marine is 100% not canon, Titus was never captain of the Ultramarines 2nd Company because it does not fit into the timeline, and, no, a Captain cannot butcher his way through dozens of Chaos Space Marines, Bloodletters and Renegade Guardsmen without taking a scratch and then go on to crush the head of a half-Demon Prince/Sorcerer.

It's ridiculous to comprehend.

 Ashiraya wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

They do take longer to train than guardsmen.


But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.

They aren't entirely useless.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
There's this thing about the fact that Space Marine is 100% not canon, Titus was never captain of the Ultramarines 2nd Company because it does not fit into the timeline, and, no, a Captain cannot butcher his way through dozens of Chaos Space Marines, Bloodletters and Renegade Guardsmen without taking a scratch and then go on to crush the head of a half-Demon Prince/Sorcerer.

It's ridiculous to comprehend.

Propaganda? I think so.

 Ashiraya wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

Oh, my apologies. I believed that since you re-posted it your theories remained the same.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

They do take longer to train than guardsmen.


But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.

They aren't entirely useless.

As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

They do take longer to train than guardsmen.


But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.

They aren't entirely useless.

As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.

But on how fast they actually get there. They are quite different.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

They do take longer to train than guardsmen.


But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.

They aren't entirely useless.

As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.

But on how fast they actually get there.

And again I return to my point that Space Marines are also often of fighting wars in far-flung systems, and won't always be there to respond. Also, reactions from local forces don't often take very long as most sectors have their own fleet of defence vessels which could also be used to transport Guard units.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

They do take longer to train than guardsmen.


But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.

They aren't entirely useless.

As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.

I respect your fervor for IG, but do you honestly believe the IoM is fine without SM's? I really don't see how the absence of SM's could in any way benefit the Imperium.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

And a small contingency of Space Marines will be enough to bring a force capable of assaulting a Forge World to its knees? I think not.

Exhibit A: Space Marine

Please don't act like Space Marine was canon in any way, shape or form.

There is this thing about 40K and canon...

And regardless, the point stands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:First off, a SM doesn't take no 70 years to train

Yes, I know that now. You are responding to a post I made two years ago.

They do take longer to train than guardsmen.


But Marines have their uses that guardsmen don't. Such as they make excellent strike forces.

They aren't entirely useless.

As do Stormtroopers and Paratroopers. Guard units fulfill the same roles as Space Marines but take less time to make and at less of a cost of resources for the same outcome.

Several catches though. For starters, space opera. Second claim, Sci Fantasy. Now are SM numbers preposterously low? Yes. That said, even IG are quite guilty of this along with the total population of several planets and the total number of Imperial planets. Add to that, this is a world where close combat is still quite a thing, mages run around the place, and people worship their lasguns to an extent. A time where the scientists are merely fools operating under traditions worshipping machines and dogmatically ignoring new discovery or creation. Why do SM exist? Well, in all honesty, why do most things exist in 40k? Why are the Tau still alive? Why is it that the daemon princes that were previously primarchs all largely hiding in the warp with minimal reveals to reality? Really there is no reasoning to it all.

In terms of the world, keep in mind that SM are, if memory serves me, known for having faster warp drives, capable of flying to planets quicker. Add to that, they are entirely separate from the standard operations meaning that they don't really fall to idiotic leaders that send them to pointless battles as often as guardsmen do.