Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think that if the resources used to create, equip and maintain Space Marines were used to create, equip and maintain Guard units then the Imperium would be a much better place.

Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.

The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.

Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.

The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.

The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.

Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.

The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.

Space Magic which is indeed what the entire world is run by. Heck, the ships couldn't even get anywhere if it weren't for space magic

The reason why Space Marines are faster is because they are a "combined arms" style army that doesn't have to wait for the Munitorium to send commands to hop over and do something. In all seriousness, 1 million marines is basically insignificant but that's really more because the people that write these games don't seem to understand how wars work. Heck, I was shockced by how low many platoon sizes are in 40k.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.

The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.

Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.

The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.

I agree that SM's are stupidly low in numbers. Unbearably low. The legion sizes were more believable but 1,000 strong chapters? Makes me sick, but dont let GW's idiotic view on reality fool you. SM's could seem a lot more better, a lot more effective should their narratives make at least half as much sense as they make now. SM's...as I said need to be logically resurrected.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.

The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.

Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.

The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.

Space Magic which is indeed what the entire world is run by. Heck, the ships couldn't even get anywhere if it weren't for space magic

The reason why Space Marines are faster is because they are a "combined arms" style army that doesn't have to wait for the Munitorium to send commands to hop over and do something. In all seriousness, 1 million marines is basically insignificant but that's really more because the people that write these games don't seem to understand how wars work. Heck, I was shockced by how low many platoon sizes are in 40k.

Yep pretty much. Everything is out of wack in 40k. To how the human brain works, to physics and statistics. Some people like that kind of thing, others dont.

But I think its incredibly important to realize those facts. (Ironically about something nonfactual haha).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.

The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.

Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.

The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.

I agree that SM's are stupidly low in numbers. Unbearably low. The legion sizes were more believable but 1,000 strong chapters? Makes me sick, but dont let GW's idiotic view on reality fool you. SM's could seem a lot more better, a lot more effective should their narratives make at least half as much sense as they make now. SM's...as I said need to be logically resurrected.

I agree. They need huge rewrite. They need to be properly thought out and be made less cartoonish. Leave all that stuff for the orks.

I think they have huge potential, but its wasted.

The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.

They have a point that is already fulfilled by specialist Guard regiments that far, far outnumber the Space Marines in terms of manpower and cost-efficiency.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.

They are huge. Loud. Stupid (charge!?) and more importantly dont arrive anywhere subtlety. Humans that can actually stealthily do things should be doing anything that involves killing a target. Not a giant drop pod assault that would be downed in seconds from light AAA fire as they slowly descend upon their targets. I mean they arent self sustaining like the guard are so why would you send them behind enemy lines? Light infantry such as airbourne troops etc go behind enemy lines. Even though they are light and fast they still dont do much besides hold critical locations SOMETIMES before reinforcements arrive. There is a reason there are very few airbourne troops around today. Their use is limited and casualties are heavy.


Guard do sabotage etc far better than marines do.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.

They are huge. Loud. Stupid (charge!?) and more importantly dont arrive anywhere subtlety. Humans that can actually stealthily do things should be doing anything that involves killing a target. Not a giant drop pod assault that would be downed in seconds from light AAA fire as they slowly descend upon their targets. I mean they arent self sustaining like the guard are so why would you send them behind enemy lines? Light infantry such as airbourne troops etc go behind enemy lines. Even though they are light and fast they still dont do much besides hold critical locations SOMETIMES before reinforcements arrive. There is a reason there are very few airbourne troops around today. Their use is limited and casualties are heavy.


Guard do sabotage etc far better than marines do.

The lore currently doesn't suggest so.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
The assasinorium is the needle, the marines the combate blade, the guard is the eventual hammer blow, slow, inevitable, and pummeling. The marines should be used for covert ops, sabotage, work behind enemy lines and when you absolutely need a target dead that is not an individual as that falls under the assassinorium. So yes they do have a point, its just not accurately depicted.

They are huge. Loud. Stupid (charge!?) and more importantly dont arrive anywhere subtlety. Humans that can actually stealthily do things should be doing anything that involves killing a target. Not a giant drop pod assault that would be downed in seconds from light AAA fire as they slowly descend upon their targets. I mean they arent self sustaining like the guard are so why would you send them behind enemy lines? Light infantry such as airbourne troops etc go behind enemy lines. Even though they are light and fast they still dont do much besides hold critical locations SOMETIMES before reinforcements arrive. There is a reason there are very few airbourne troops around today. Their use is limited and casualties are heavy.


Guard do sabotage etc far better than marines do.

The lore currently doesn't suggest so.

They posses no qualities to be good at this job.

A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.

You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.

 Ashiraya wrote:
A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.

You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.

Because its a lot of fun to argue fiction, arguing non fiction is serious and would rather do that in person. Also as stated before i think Space marines CAN be cool. Just with some real thought put behind them. I mean, knights in space would be very cool! Not the chunky hooligans they are now.

Also many of the things said annoy me as they go against real world examples with the excuse of space magic. Which I find is a poor excuse for things. I prefer my stories to be well thought out and well executed. Which I personally dont see in marines, despite what many claim of them.

I prefer it when the Space marines are just missionary type knights questing for relics and so forth. Like hunting on some distant planets for lost artifacts or defending a precious book from harm on some remote colony. Much like 99% of the sisters jobs. to me thats a lot cooler and somewhat a realistic expectation of their potential, except they would be way cooler than the sisters. In my opinion.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.

You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.

Because its a lot of fun to argue fiction, arguing non fiction is serious and would rather do that in person. Also as stated before i think Space marines CAN be cool. Just with some real thought put behind them. I mean, knights in space would be very cool! Not the chunky hooligans they are now.

Also many of the things said annoy me as they go against real world examples with the excuse of space magic. Which I find is a poor excuse for things. I prefer my stories to be well thought out and well executed. Which I personally dont see in marines, despite what many claim of them.

Space Marines in their current design break logic in many places, like many other races. They are OK anyway. 40K is like, the place to go when you want some illogical action sci-fi-fantasy-amalgamation. It's not quite DBZ in space but it's not that far off, especially when we bring things like psykers and primarchs into the equation.

I respect your preferences, but 40K seems like an extremely poor choice for you, considering what you are looking for.

The tabletop guys who are basically guardsmen with +1 in some stats and upgraded equipment? That is not fluff Marines.

This is fluff marines.

There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.

The fluff varies but generally 40K overall walks more into the area of 'mythology' than 'history'. It's like, you want Empire: Total War, but instead you play Age of Mythology and complain it's unrealistic.
40K is not realistic. It's not intended to be, it has never been, and it will never be. It will never be logical. It will never stretch your capacity for suspending disbelief to something less than its limit. It's the way the setting as a whole works.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
There's this thing about the fact that Space Marine is 100% not canon, Titus was never captain of the Ultramarines 2nd Company because it does not fit into the timeline, and, no, a Captain cannot butcher his way through dozens of Chaos Space Marines, Bloodletters and Renegade Guardsmen without taking a scratch and then go on to crush the head of a half-Demon Prince/Sorcerer.

It's ridiculous to comprehend.

Even if Spacemarine is a bad example, it's still a good example.

Sure, one Marine Captain and a couple of bros might not be able to literally slaughter several armies and brutalize a Demon Prince and a warboss one after the other.. But Space Marines are an elite force which operates on lighting strikes and swift thrusts. An assault upon a Forgeworld would literally be their best case scenario, because they can exert critical amounts of force in critical areas to heavily handicap the enemy. Cut supply lines, take out drops, murder leaders en-route, disable crucial systems, ect.

Space Marines don't fight like the Guard unless they're pinned down and have to. Fluff wise they prefer guerrilla warfare, and they're supposed to be very good at it.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.

The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.

Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.

The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.

Space Marines are always fighting, but they are not always at war.

The Dark Angels may respond to a threat, but it's a very rare call for help which sees the entire chapter mobilized. Usually fewer than 100 marines are sent (it's more like 10-50, honestly). They arrive and they wage a precise campaign where they use superior tactics, training, and equipment to exert extreme force upon vulnerable portions of the enemy and break the foes back. With that done they may or may not assist the local defense crews with clean-up before heading back.

This isn't what's primarily written about marines because, and let's be real, marines stomping on the throats of weaklings whilst using hit-and-run tactics against an enemy that can't hope to stand up to them without superior numbers that they are never allowed to bear, just isn't that interesting if it's constantly done. Glorious battles chalk full of bolter porn have a much larger appeal to Black Library consumers than novelizations with short and unexciting combat sequences broken up by extensive planning and deployment actions.

Back on subject, because a Chapter rarely goes anywhere in force and does not have to deal with the horrifying amount of red tape that the IG and other forces do, they are absolutely required. A huge amount of worlds would be lost before the guard could respond if the marines weren't there for rapid deployment. Having 10,000 more guardsmen for each marine means diddly if it takes said guardsmen three years to show up on a planet that needs help NOW and won't be around in that long.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
A question for you, Swastakowey, as this has been bugging me.

You have said several times you dislike the setting and choose to ignore almost all of it except a few favourite parts of yours like your fav-faction the Guard. If so, why are you bothering to even participate in these arguments? It almost seems like you do it just out of spite, though I won't presume this is actually the case.

Because its a lot of fun to argue fiction, arguing non fiction is serious and would rather do that in person. Also as stated before i think Space marines CAN be cool. Just with some real thought put behind them. I mean, knights in space would be very cool! Not the chunky hooligans they are now.

Also many of the things said annoy me as they go against real world examples with the excuse of space magic. Which I find is a poor excuse for things. I prefer my stories to be well thought out and well executed. Which I personally dont see in marines, despite what many claim of them.

Space Marines in their current design break logic in many places, like many other races. They are OK anyway. 40K is like, the place to go when you want some illogical action sci-fi-fantasy-amalgamation. It's not quite DBZ in space but it's not that far off, especially when we bring things like psykers and primarchs into the equation.

I respect your preferences, but 40K seems like an extremely poor choice for you, considering what you are looking for.

The tabletop guys who are basically guardsmen with +1 in some stats and upgraded equipment? That is not fluff Marines.

This is fluff marines.

There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.

The fluff varies but generally 40K overall walks more into the area of 'mythology' than 'history'. It's like, you want Empire: Total War, but instead you play Age of Mythology and complain it's unrealistic.
40K is not realistic. It's not intended to be, it has never been, and it will never be. It will never be logical. It will never stretch your capacity for suspending disbelief to something less than its limit. It's the way the setting as a whole works.

40K fluff is bad, I know. But there are a lot of ideas which come from real events. Many of the regiments have very obvious inspiration drawn from real times/people, many events in 40k (if you can dig deep enough in the more serious stuff) are drawn from our past as well. It has a lot of potential. I dont think you actually know what I want

40K, thankfully, is open ended. I can make whatever I want from history and create it into an Imperial Regiment. This is where the gold in 40k is. Its not the crappy stats or bull stories GW comes up with. Its the ideas and foundations which we are free to build up on and change as we please. I can make my own version of 40k and ignore the childish stories. I like what I can do with the setting as its over all a great idea. Just so stupidly done (in my opinion).

I mean, that passage you quoted, is pretty bad. Ignoring all the problems with that passage I will pick out the biggest one. The fact that there is deadly gas leaking onto the street that is USED TO KILL, and rebel civilians come out cheering on that very street unharmed by that gas that would be spewing out of the chemical tank, goes to show how little thought is put into it. Why would the writer mention that specific Bane Wolfs story, and then forget it happened immediately after? There should be rebels fleeing from that battle as soon as they could rather than inhale deadly poison. Its just lazy writing. I found this the case in many 40k books and I couldnt finish any except Ghaunts ghosts. For some reason i actually liked that series.

I would argue mythology is more well thought out than Space marines are.

Its a daft question really mate, I mean, just think about it logically for a moment and apply real world mechanics. When I was trying to earn my green beret, they told me that our basic training cost $100,000 a pop, and that was why we had to sign contracts and were not allowed to leave until we hit a certain term, because the government doesnt want to spend a gakload of the taxpayers cash and then see them bugger off 6 months later. Its the same for every military course, you can do a two year telecommunications course that is worth a lot on civvie street, so they make you sign up for 9 years or have to pay them a gakload of cash to get out early.

So, why don't we get rid of the Navy SEALs, feth all the green berets out of Fort Bragg and just use the gakky National Guard for everything?

Special soldiers always have a use, and nothing about the fictional 40k universe contradicts that. There are thousands of instances where Space Marines are hyper efficient. Ripping a POI from a fortified world, delivering a precise strike or laying some demo charges at a critical point in an enemy stronghold, assassinating a leader, they would be perfect for it, better than a regular human SF trooper.

They are absolute killing machines, and having them line up on the battlefield for a mass battle just like on the tabletop is not what they are intended for.

There are over 2500 active SEALS. We could have had them all manning 22 different FOBS in Helmand province, but we don't, we use regular grunts, because special soldiers should always have a special use.

To be fair, even though I rather liked Ghaunts Ghosts, it's also rather unrealistic many times as well with the character hurtling around with a preposterous level of plot armour.

In the case of the bane wolf, nobody said it had been leaking anywhere near the rebels. It most likely disperses quickly. Notice how it was blown up in the middle of the Guard lines, where it caused death for dozens of meters around it. Not illogical at all. Otherwise, no problems with that passage, other than it has your favourite faction being beaten by a faction you don't like in a way you don't like.

Plus, I do not consider 40K fluff bad.

 mattyrm wrote:
Its a daft question really mate, I mean, just think about it logically for a moment and apply real world mechanics.

When I was trying to earn my green beret, they told me that our basic training cost $100,000 a pop, and that was why we had to sign contracts and were not allowed to leave until we hit a certain term.

Its the same for every military course, you can do a two year telecommunications course, they make you sign up for 9 years or have to pay them a gakload of cash.

So, why don't we get rid of the Navy SEALs, feth all the green berets out of Fort Bragg and just use the gakky National Guard for everything?

Special soldiers always have a use, and nothing about the fictional 40k universe contradicts that.

There are thousands of instances where Space Marines are hyper efficient. Ripping a POI from a chaos held world, delivering a precise strike to an enemy stronghold, assassinating a leader, they would be perfect for it, better than a regular human SF trooper.

They are absolute killing machines, and having them line up on the battlefield for a mass battle just like on the tabletop is not what they are intended for.

There are over 2500 active SEALS. We could have had them all manning 22 different FOBS in Helmand province, and we don't, we use grunts, because special soldiers should always have a special use.

But dont navy seals have the gear, training and set up to be effective at what they do? And there are Guard that do exactly what navy seals do?

You will know more than i do.

But Space Marines have rocket propelled noisy guns of death with small amounts of ammo. Are huge and weigh a crap ton. Do not look and are no stealthy by a long shot (due to size, wight and so forth), fluff wise they frequently are seen screaming and charging into combat. They rely on body armour instead of cover etc.

I do not see Marines possesing any qualities that make them useful as special soldiers. They seem like more of a hindrance. Especially when there are humans who do special jobs in the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StarTrotter wrote:
To be fair, even though I rather liked Ghaunts Ghosts, it's also rather unrealistic many times as well with the character hurtling around with a preposterous level of plot armour.

Yea, but I thought I better admit that I like it. I was about to say i didnt finish any of the books but that would be lying haha. I understand it was not very realistic.

100 000$ a pop? Holy gak we spend more on ammo alone for a single infantryman course here. And that's not including basic training...

*coughs*

Stormtroopers could be the special soldiers, because well, they kinda do that in the fluff, and the new 'dex doesn't limit e'm to 10 000 anymore, I think.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Space Marines do what the IG do but far more expensive and far less practical.

The Imperium would be fine without them. Ignoring the part where Space Marines in reality could not do anything they are cracked up to do. They are just big targets. Big expensive targets.

Also why are Space marines all of a sudden a faster response force? There are like 1 million of them or something and they are somehow faster than the Imperial guard which is a uncountable number strong and constantly mobilizing? wars on earth have more men involved than Space Marines even have numbers.

The only way Space Marines can be justified or work is via space magic.

This is also a bad argument, the larger a force, the harder it is to administer.

I have carried out military operations in all sorts of formations. It works like this.

Troop (24 men) Operation goes like a charm

Company (100+) Operation goes well

Unit (600+) Operation becomes unwieldy

Brigade (several thousand) Operation is a fething nightmare

Division - Absolute clusterfeth

Multi National Operation (I once worked with the French Foreign Legion, Spanish Marines, Dutch Marines, Yank Marines, and a platoon of Irish dog walkers) - Nobody has a clue what is going on ever, and the of the Dutch soldiers start playing volleyball.

Bigger is never better!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
100 000$ a pop? Holy gak we spend more on ammo alone for a single infantryman course here. And that's not including basic training...

fething hell who are you buying your ammo off? The Taliban?

No worries, I couldn't help but make little jokes. I tend to treat 40k much like I treat Star Wars honestly. I look at it and like its premise (the original films in the case of Star Wars). I then promptly ignore about 90% of the expanded universe and only grab things like Admiral Thrawn because good gosh some of the stuff is absolutely terrible and contradictory.

From what I gather, SM are more akin to shock troops really. Fast, mobile, quick to strike. At least in concept. When it comes to actual writing, they go all over the place. Then there's things like sneaky Marines (Raven and Night Lords come to mind). I say this all understanding that to even enjoy anything past the concept of 40k, you have to basically put logic beside the door.

 StarTrotter wrote:
No worries, I couldn't help but make little jokes. I tend to treat 40k much like I treat Star Wars honestly. I look at it and like its premise (the original films in the case of Star Wars). I then promptly ignore about 90% of the expanded universe and only grab things like Admiral Thrawn because good gosh some of the stuff is absolutely terrible and contradictory.

From what I gather, SM are more akin to shock troops really. Fast, mobile, quick to strike. At least in concept. When it comes to actual writing, they go all over the place. Then there's things like sneaky Marines (Raven and Night Lords come to mind). I say this all understanding that to even enjoy anything past the concept of 40k, you have to basically put logic beside the door.

Thats how I feel. Although it bugs me, there is still lots to like about 40k. I just usually wish I could use logic and enjoy my game. Funnily enough I also like starwars, but once it leaves the movies I dislike most of it too!

I would love to reply to all the people who quoted me, but I have to do spread sheets. Just know I would have written a long response if I had time. Dont get a job doing spread sheets etc. Its turns you into someone who cannot like 40k style stuff

But my stance is clear and to the guy who said bigger isnt better. thats exactly why I hate Space marines. they are bigger in everything except where it counts Which by that I mean there are too few to realistically respond to calls of aid. With no reason to be faster at it than any other force designed to do the same thing.

 StarTrotter wrote:
To be fair, even though I rather liked Ghaunts Ghosts, it's also rather unrealistic many times as well with the character hurtling around with a preposterous level of plot armour.

Well yeah, thats the other good argument, because its fiction and its fething great. I aboslutely loved the GG books.

The Space Marines are hard bastards too, and we like hard bastards in fiction.

From Wolverine and Yoda to Jack Reacher and Sherlock Holmes, you don't want realism, you want escapism and awesome sauce, and superhumans with solid ribcages and two hearts, and the ability to crush skulls with one hand and spit acid in peoples faces, is fething awesome. Space Marines look brilliant as well, they got me into 40k as a kid, and I will always appreciate the appeal of awesome for that reason alone.

I wouldn't want t watch a Jackie Chan film if he got his ass beat as soon as more than three guys showed up either!

One thing worth noting is the inspirational appeal of space marines. these are living demigods, as far as the people of the Imperium are concerned. the presence of even a small unit of space marines at a battle proably does WONDERS to bolster morale of guardsmen regiments.

They are also excellent linebreakers. It's like having a heavily armoured rhinoceros running around in your line.

This is how i see it the Imperial Guard are the allies from WW2 and Space Marines are modern Special Forces.

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing worth noting is the inspirational appeal of space marines. these are living demigods, as far as the people of the Imperium are concerned. the presence of even a small unit of space marines at a battle proably does WONDERS to bolster morale of guardsmen regiments.

As would the presence of a unit of highly trained special forces.

> Space Marines, the Imperium's most expensive morale-booster

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
One thing worth noting is the inspirational appeal of space marines. these are living demigods, as far as the people of the Imperium are concerned. the presence of even a small unit of space marines at a battle proably does WONDERS to bolster morale of guardsmen regiments.

As would the presence of a unit of highly trained special forces.

> Space Marines, the Imperium's most expensive morale-booster

A morale booster that can punch your head off!

Space marines are ultra elite special operations troops, able to function in almost any environment including void operations.

There expensive but there not line troops like guards but ultra mobile self sufficient units able to furful a huge range of tasks.

Yes legion scale makes far more sense, but there not ment for foot operations or attrition but fast strikes, difficult or insanely dangerous missions.
Guarfdsman have limitations, but the marines are far more capable.